Using RGB gain/cuts for gamma? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all, total amateur here. I've heard that you can affect gamma when doing grayscale adjustments. How would you raise gamma, by bringing the high & low RGB values closer together or farther apart? Sorry for the stupid question.tongue.gif

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post #2 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 09:03 AM
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Yes everything really does interact with each other, but cuts and gains for RGB level not gamma. You cannot effectively adjust gamma with this method.

I am sure others with more knowledge than me will chime in soon.

David

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post #3 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Hi all, total amateur here. I've heard that you can affect gamma when doing grayscale adjustments. How would you raise gamma, by bringing the high & low RGB values closer together or farther apart? Sorry for the stupid question.tongue.gif

If your set only has 2-pt grayscale controls (i.e. R/G/B Gain and R/G/B Cuts), you can't use it to adjust your gamma. Your set needs to have multi-point grayscale / gamma controls (usually 9-pt or 10-pt) for you to effectively control your gamma. Take 9-pt as an example, i.e. gamma control for 10%, 20%, ... , and 90%. For example, if you want to raise the gamma (i.e. reducing light output) at 90%, you should reduce all R, G, and B values @ 90% at the same time (probably by the same no. of clicks), while still ensure the resultant measurement for 90% gray still strike the D65 point, i.e. R, G, and B are all ~100%, using dE as your guidance.

Alternatively, your set may have a control called Gamma which, if available, will work independently with the 2-pt grayscale control to bring the entire gamma curve, or part of it, up or down.
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post #4 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Hi all, total amateur here. I've heard that you can affect gamma when doing grayscale adjustments. How would you raise gamma, by bringing the high & low RGB values closer together or farther apart? Sorry for the stupid question.tongue.gif

It is not a stupid question at all. As dominickwok has explained you can not really make changes in the curve if all you have is a 2 point.
However, understanding what gamma is will be helpful to you. I will see if i can explain the basics properly.

Gamma is the speed in which your image come out of black. What that means is your display has a dynamic range of the darkest dark and the brightest white in can display. So for instance, if you were to break that up into 10 points of luminance i.e. 0-100 10% 20% 30% .. 90% 100% and adjust each chunks luminance value, you can control how much of the range is spent in the darker parts of the image by increasing/decreasing their portions.

This is a calculated adjustment since these numbers are different depending on how much dynamic range the display has. The calibration software will know what the min and max light output is when you take your 100% and 0% reading, then depending on what your target gamma is set to in the software, calculate the max luminance of each of the 10 points to achieve the target gamma.

If you are using Calman (the only cal software I have use) you can use the absolute chart during gray scale (with multipoint adjustments) that will figure the gamma into the chart. When adjusting the RGB at each point you will try and get the 3 bars to 0 as that will mean they are balance for D65 and the amount of brightness is correct for your target gamma. When multipoint controls are used, and you do not pay attention to the luminance values in the data grid or by using a chart, you can raise or lower the luminance causing a sawtooth gamma curve.


With 2 point you are adjusting the RGB in the dark end of the scale and the light end of the scale. So as you raise and lower each end you are actually changing Brightness and Contrast not gamma. This is why you must always recheck brightness and contrast after you adjust gray scale.

Hope that makes sense!
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post #5 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow you guys are awesome thank you! Yes I only have 2pt controls and my gamma adjustment is maxed at 2.2, I was trying to get it closer to 2.4.

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post #6 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 10:40 AM
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You must R/G/B Gain and R/G/B Cuts down all together to gamma 2.4 (look 20/30 IRE and 70/80 IRE)/
Good luck!
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post #7 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

You must R/G/B Gain and R/G/B Cuts down all together to gamma 2.4 (look 20/30 IRE and 70/80 IRE)/
Good luck!

doing that would be the exact same as bringing brightness and contrast down, which will crush blacks and reduce light output/contrast ratio, respectively
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post #8 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 11:29 AM
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Yes.
But the goal is reached.
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post #9 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

You must R/G/B Gain and R/G/B Cuts down all together to gamma 2.4 (look 20/30 IRE and 70/80 IRE)/
Good luck!
yup
reduce all and gamma goes up, add to all and gamma goes down.
as far as using just bright and cont, does not achieve the same thing.

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post #10 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Yes.
But the goal is reached.

(not really) and at what expense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

yup
reduce all and gamma goes up, add to all and gamma goes down.
as far as using just bright and cont, does not achieve the same thing.

sorry but that is just plain wrong and the posts above (#2-4) just confirm what I'm saying
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post #11 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 01:20 PM
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Interesting debate but I side with the notion that gains and cuts CAN be used to alter gamma.

You still have the brightness and contrast to dial out clipping (hopefully)

My projector lets has gamma control software but I believe in using the gains/cuts to get gamma close. (I'm concerned gamma correction will cause banding.)

-Brian
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post #12 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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OK now I'm confused.

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post #13 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post

Interesting debate but I side with the notion that gains and cuts CAN be used to alter gamma.
You still have the brightness and contrast to dial out clipping (hopefully)
My projector lets has gamma control software but I believe in using the gains/cuts to get gamma close. (I'm concerned gamma correction will cause banding.)
-Brian

RGB low end controls are brightness/black level controls separated by color (R, G, B) and RGB high end controls are contrast/picture/white level controls separated by color (R, G, B). Why is this so hard to grasp? You simply cannot adjust gamma with 2-pt grayscale controls. For that you need more points of adjustment (like 10 or 20) or at least multiple gamma presets (or preferably both).
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post #14 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

(not really) and at what expense?
sorry but that is just plain wrong and the posts above (#2-4) just confirm what I'm saying
OK,
i have a busted plasma then.
And the phone call with an expert was a dream.

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post #15 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

yup
reduce all and gamma goes up, add to all and gamma goes down.
as far as using just bright and cont, does not achieve the same thing.

Every set is a bit different, but for the most part RGB cuts and gains are simply RGB brightness and contrast controls.

You can tweak gamma a bit using brightness and contrast as well, but you're not going to have any real flexibility it trying to get to a target, you can really only get such a small change that it's not really worth setting your brightness or contrast incorrectly for the small change in gamma.

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post #16 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

OK,
i have a busted plasma then.
And the phone call with an expert was a dream.

perhaps if you tried explaining your logic or provided some hard data, it would help

but essentially you're still just lowering brightness and contrast, so you will crush blacks and you will reduce light output
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post #17 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Every set is a bit different, but for the most part RGB cuts and gains are simply RGB brightness and contrast controls.
You can tweak gamma a bit using brightness and contrast as well, but you're not going to have any real flexibility it trying to get to a target, you can really only get such a small change that it's not really worth setting your brightness or contrast incorrectly for the small change in gamma.

exactly and you can't magically go from 2.2 to 2.4 gamma by lowering brightness and contrast (not to mention the adverse effects of trying to do so)
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post #18 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

perhaps if you tried explaining your logic or provided some hard data, it would help
but essentially you're still just lowering brightness and contrast, so you will crush blacks and you will reduce light output
l
hard data and the "your meter is bad" is out.
I have read the statements about cuts and drives being essentially equal to brgt and cont. you made a declarative statement that I disagree with. there are no absolutes and the "art" aspect of calibrations backs me up.
the colors of rgb have different wave heights and lengths.
one short and high- blue
one long and high- green
one medium length and medium high-red
this is an approximation.
As I am sure you know, adjusting gray scale is not add 2 take away 1 type a deal
where it is an absolute. the waves change and the balance changes. the waves are not perfect. I do not know if it is electronics or just the nature of color pixels.


the brightness and contrast do slide along the "range of values" allowed by the
numerical values set in the starting hex to the ending hex of the 3 colors defined in the service menu.
so in a sense one can say what you believe.
where we differ is it is not absolute. the user controls can only go along the defined
range in the service menu. changing the range in the service menu gives the user controls a whole new wave to move along.
as such, I have been able to affect gamma.

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post #19 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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So.... bringing the rgb cuts and gains down in the service menu will raise the gamma?

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post #20 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post

So.... bringing the rgb cuts and gains down in the service menu will raise the gamma?

maybe, maybe not, depends ALOT on the TV.

pushing them down, dims the picture and raises the gamma number. Is it different than just using the contrast control and turning it down a few clicks? On most sets, no it's exactly the same.

Until you've spent time with a TV set and really played with the controls it's impossible to know how they work on any given set.

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post #21 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post

l
hard data and the "your meter is bad" is out.
I have read the statements about cuts and drives being essentially equal to brgt and cont. you made a declarative statement that I disagree with. there are no absolutes and the "art" aspect of calibrations backs me up.
the colors of rgb have different wave heights and lengths.
one short and high- blue
one long and high- green
one medium length and medium high-red
this is an approximation.
As I am sure you know, adjusting gray scale is not add 2 take away 1 type a deal
where it is an absolute. the waves change and the balance changes. the waves are not perfect. I do not know if it is electronics or just the nature of color pixels.
the brightness and contrast do slide along the "range of values" allowed by the
numerical values set in the starting hex to the ending hex of the 3 colors defined in the service menu.
so in a sense one can say what you believe.
where we differ is it is not absolute. the user controls can only go along the defined
range in the service menu. changing the range in the service menu gives the user controls a whole new wave to move along.
as such, I have been able to affect gamma.

my statement refers to moving all three colors up or down by the same amount

also, changing brightness and contrast (or their RGB equivalents) in the service menu will give you more range for those controls but that doesn't making trying to use those controls to adjust gamma any less fruitless
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post #22 of 36 Old 08-19-2012, 04:23 PM
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This might be a little more understandable: Do a ten point GS run and see that gamma is, say, around 2.4 across the board and you want it to be 2.2. Select an 80% continuous read. Now adjust the Gains upward and as you do you will see the 80% Gamma dot descend to 2.2. Done? Nope. That 80% mark is based on the original output of 100% and you just changed the contrast. Now measure the new 100%. Based on that, the 80% gamma will jump back to its original 2.4 reading.
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post #23 of 36 Old 08-21-2012, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

This might be a little more understandable: Do a ten point GS run and see that gamma is, say, around 2.4 across the board and you want it to be 2.2. Select an 80% continuous read. Now adjust the Gains upward and as you do you will see the 80% Gamma dot descend to 2.2. Done? Nope. That 80% mark is based on the original output of 100% and you just changed the contrast. Now measure the new 100%. Based on that, the 80% gamma will jump back to its original 2.4 reading.

Totaly agree on that if you only have 2 point grayscale settings i.e only brightness-contrast or cuts-bias whatever is in your tv.

After a 10 point GS measure AND your tv has 10 or 20 point GS and gamma @70 "IRE" dips under the 2.2 or 2.4 mark (you choose gamma 2.2 or 2.4 setting in tv menu) you can can up al 3 RGB @70 together to "dial" 70% "IRE" in to you gamma 2.2 or 2.4 setting

Sometimes you are 1 click away from pulling your hair out and bang your head against the wall
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post #24 of 36 Old 08-21-2012, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerbeenl View Post

Totaly agree on that if you only have 2 point grayscale settings i.e only brightness-contrast or cuts-bias whatever is in your tv.
After a 10 point GS measure AND your tv has 10 or 20 point GS and gamma @70 "IRE" dips under the 2.2 or 2.4 mark (you choose gamma 2.2 or 2.4 setting in tv menu) you can can up al 3 RGB @70 together to "dial" 70% "IRE" in to you gamma 2.2 or 2.4 setting

The thread is about cuts and gains - 2 point!

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post #25 of 36 Old 08-21-2012, 05:25 PM
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The thread is about cuts and gains - 2 point!

yes, I'm sure that poster knows
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post #26 of 36 Old 08-22-2012, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

You simply cannot adjust gamma with 2-pt grayscale controls.

Actually, you can as long as you're willing to "compromise" on black-levels. On most consumer grade CRT's you could either have inky-blacks or you could have a smooth(er) gamma response with actual shadow detail. Back in the day, "the community" pretty much ignored the issue, while preferring the inky-blacks at any cost.
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post #27 of 36 Old 08-22-2012, 05:07 AM
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Actually, you can as long as you're willing to "compromise" on black-levels. On most consumer grade CRT's you could either have inky-blacks or you could have a smooth(er) gamma response with actual shadow detail. Back in the day, "the community" pretty much ignored the issue, while preferring the inky-blacks at any cost.

Agreed, I had a CRT projector till a few years ago and always had the choice of pitch black or shadow detail. Eventually gamma correcting processors (not full fledged video processors) became popular.

Now with my sxrd projector I have gamma control software that lets you adjust each (primary) color's curve for exact gamma. I believe it leads to artifacts though (banding, blocking.) So, with other settings (Panel Driver, Brightness, Contrast, Gain, Cut) I can adjust to a good setting.

I don't get much tweak time though and I'm still learning.

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post #28 of 36 Old 08-23-2012, 04:02 PM
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For those who don't believe R,G,B low end and high end controls are brightness and contrast controls separated by color, consider this: The 2-pt grayscale controls found on the LGs have the R,G,B high end controls labeled "R,G,B Contrast" and the R,G,B low end controls labeled "R,G,B Brightness."
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post #29 of 36 Old 08-23-2012, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

For those who don't believe R,G,B low end and high end controls are brightness and contrast controls separated by color, consider this: The 2-pt grayscale controls found on the LGs have the R,G,B high end controls labeled "R,G,B Contrast" and the R,G,B low end controls labeled "R,G,B Brightness."

I do believe that.

Never mind the fact that adjusting brightness and contrast changes the gamma response.


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post #30 of 36 Old 08-23-2012, 04:22 PM
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I do believe that and I'm not trying to argue for the fun of it or anything.
With my pj though... you can alter gamma with gains and cuts.... Seriously. I could prove it with graphs for HCFR if you like.
I'm not sure if flat panel controls have as much affect as the controls in my projector... I have a flat panel but I don't even bother with it's calibration because it looks fine and I tend to watch the projector for everything. (The flat screen is just for the rest of the family and they aren't crazy videophiles.)
-Brian

I do also believe what you're saying but it seems to me what you describe is more of the exception rather than the rule. I might want to see those HCFR graphs just to see how linear this gamma change is.
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