Radiance 3D LUT (5x5x5 Cube) Calibration with CalMAN 5 - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 825 Old 06-08-2013, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

The mini-3D download link on the lumagen software updates pages is broken.

- Rich

Seems to be fixed now. I just downloaded the file.

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post #542 of 825 Old 06-08-2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by leemathre View Post

Seems to be fixed now. I just downloaded the file.

Thanks for the head's up.

I was able to download.

- Rich

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post #543 of 825 Old 06-12-2013, 04:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Lumagen Radiance XE/XE+/XE3D/XE/XE+/XE3D/Mini-3D/XD/XD3D Series New 060513 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Improved some changes made in previous 052813 firmware to fix a couple more output handshaking/initialization issues.

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post #544 of 825 Old 06-12-2013, 06:25 PM
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Thanks for the heads up.
Things must be a little slow over at Lumagen, for us to get so many FW updates lately! Engineers finally have time to work on our Radiance Problems.

New Calman 5.1.2 # 1263 now available:

http://store.spectracal.com/downloads/
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post #545 of 825 Old 06-19-2013, 01:56 PM
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post #546 of 825 Old 06-19-2013, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks SS for the info, upate details:

Lumagen Radiance XE/XE+/XE3D/XE/XE+/XE3D/Mini-3D/XD/XD3D Series New 061413 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Improved input handshaking with some input sources--symptoms prior to this update were not getting picture or correct audio format occasionally when powering on or changing inputs

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post #547 of 825 Old 06-26-2013, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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CalMAN 5.2.0 build 1272 Open Beta

The CalMAN 5.2.0 Open Beta has started. Download Link & Feature List is available here.

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post #548 of 825 Old 07-23-2013, 10:14 PM
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New FW Update:

Production 071613- The 061813 revision did not completely resolve the video loss with 3D, this new update does. Fix for zooming and filling screen with letterbox input aspect on 2.35 output aspect display. Shortened HDCP unavailable onscreen message to 3 seconds. Added 1080p25 output mode.

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=updates
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post #549 of 825 Old 07-27-2013, 02:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Lumagen Radiance XE/XE+/XE3D/XE/XE+/XE3D/Mini-3D/XD/XD3D Series New 071713 Firmware Update

Release Notes

Fix for A bug only in previous release (071613) caused incorrect video colors after exiting test patterns.

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post #550 of 825 Old 07-27-2013, 05:32 PM
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What do you guys use for patterns for a Panasonic plasma?

It seems that APL patterns work better for my plasma but the Radiance 3D doesn't have APL patterns.

Is Lumagen doing anything to add them?

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post #551 of 825 Old 07-27-2013, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

What do you guys use for patterns for a Panasonic plasma?

It seems that APL patterns work better for my plasma but the Radiance 3D doesn't have APL patterns.

Is Lumagen doing anything to add them?

So far it seems they are doing nothing.
I have talked to the powers to be at Lumagen about 6 months ago, they say they could but nothing happens. We are still stuck using about a 2%, 10% or full screen window.
For those of us that do LUT cube calibrations there are no disc we can use for now. I guess Ted is making a Blu Ray disc for use with LightSpace, so if Ted's disc has better windows and maybe APL, I will be selling my Radiance.

ss
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post #552 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 03:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

What do you guys use for patterns for a Panasonic plasma?

It seems that APL patterns work better for my plasma but the Radiance 3D doesn't have APL patterns.

Is Lumagen doing anything to add them?

So far it seems they are doing nothing.
I have talked to the powers to be at Lumagen about 6 months ago, they say they could but nothing happens. We are still stuck using about a 2%, 10% or full screen window.
For those of us that do LUT cube calibrations there are no disc we can use for now. I guess Ted is making a Blu Ray disc for use with LightSpace, so if Ted's disc has better windows and maybe APL, I will be selling my Radiance.

ss

SS, The Disk Version that will be released soon it will have only Lumagen Large Sized 11.11% Patterns.

Upcoming Version will have a Different Size 'Square Size' Patterns, I'm not sure the size but smaller than 10%, and later Full Field...

The reason we are have moved to 17-Point Cube (4.913 Color Points) Profilings is because it's the size of LUT that they are using at the professional world, during the Mastering Process of the Movie etc.

So profiling with the same LUT size, it moves us closer to the image that they are saw during the Mastering of the Movie.

There's no use of any APL Size Patterns at Professonal World for 3D Cube... They are using Full Field or Window Patterns only... None Professional Software used for years there as TruLight, CineSpace, LightSpace has Internal Pattern generator for APL Patterns for 3D-Cube Profilings, so I don't care so much about APL patterns currently.

Think that the currect Chapters with 11.11% Patterns my disk have total size of 10GB, and a new addition of different size patterns it will probably require some weeks to complete because i have to create 6000 new Patterns one by one and check the values 5 times one by one, like i did to the 11.11% Patterns, and also add 1 week more for encoding.

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post #553 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 05:40 AM
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Ted

So the short version is if you have a current Panasonic plasma or for that matter any plasma that varies a fair amount between 0% APL versus 18%-25% APL where most content resides, don't bother with 3D LUT calibration as the patterns don't exist that would get you closer to an accurate calibration. Note....I'm speaking about a Panasonic plasma and not other brands and/or technologies that would benefit.

Your comment a few days ago about using a yardstick that's 38" long stuck with me. Would this be a good example?

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post #554 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Ted

So the short version is if you have a current Panasonic plasma or for that matter any plasma that varies a fair amount between 0% APL versus 18%-25% APL where most content resides, don't bother with 3D LUT calibration as the patterns don't exist that would get you closer to an accurate calibration. Note....I'm speaking about a Panasonic plasma and not other brands and/or technologies that would benefit.

Your comment a few days ago about using a yardstick that's 38" long stuck with me. Would this be a good example?

Jim, Is there available pattern generator with APL Patterns for 16 Million RGB Triplet Combination? No... It doesn't exist currently.

All the Professional Studios that have Panasonic Professional Series Plasma Displays for years they are using Window Patterns. Did they do wrong? You can e-mail them to force them to use APL Patterns as you found here together with other users that have better results. looool

APL Patterns are useful (not for all Models/Brands of Plasma) in situations that you have one 1 only Control per Color.... If you don't have a Lumagen and you are calibrating within the internal controls of your Plasma.
Usings TV's Internal's Controls you have 1 Point to Control All the Red or 1 Point to Control for all Blue or 1 Point to Control for all the Green.... Color Mixing of Possible 10.648.000 Colors (For Video)

For me, to calculate the APL for 4.913 with Fixed RGB Triplet Patterns that can be used for LightSpace will take a lot of time...

....But to calculate the 16Million Different APL Patterns that you need for CalMAN's AutoCAL, this makes the APL Pattern feature impossible for a Disk or I haven't seen any pattern generator which can generate APL Full RGB Triplet Patterns.

11% Patterns are not triggering so much the APL..... and the users/customers that are using Large 3D-Cube Systems are owners of the expensive Panasonic Plasma Models.

Also 100% of the Lumagen with Plasma users for 5-Point Cube they are using the Window Patterns and they don't have any other option. Nobody in the world has ever used APL Patterns for 3D-Cube becasue it doesnt exist a software or hardware solution to generate them.

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post #555 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Your comment a few days ago about using a yardstick that's 38" long stuck with me. Would this be a good example?

I haven't post anything about 'yardstick', That was Michael's Chen comment.

The 5 LightSpace VT50/60 users I know, don't have a problem so far (after 6 months of more using them) with Lumagen Large Window Patterns.
And Many more Panasonic Plasma users with CalMAN with Lumagen.....they are using Lumagen Large Window Patterns too...

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post #556 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Nobody in the world has ever used APL Patterns for 3D-Cube becasue it doesnt exist a software or hardware solution to generate them.

I use pseudo APL patterns to calibrate my plasma with the eeColor box/ArgyllCMS, 10% window on a fixed 20% stimulus background and it works quite well. Luminance load variation during patch measurement is between 3% and 13% peak output which is a good target range for plasma calibration. However, I've done it both ways and while the 3dLUT calibration obtained from standard windows is measurably different in the saturation sweeps these difference are small and you can not distinguish between the two even with still images much less moving video.
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post #557 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Nobody in the world has ever used APL Patterns for 3D-Cube becasue it doesnt exist a software or hardware solution to generate them.

I use pseudo APL patterns to calibrate my plasma with the eeColor box/ArgyllCMS, 10% window on a fixed 20% stimulus background and it works quite well. Luminance load variation during patch measurement is between 3% and 13% peak output which is a good target range for plasma calibration. However, I've done it both ways and while the 3dLUT calibration obtained from standard windows is measurably different in the saturation sweeps these difference are small and you can not distinguish between the two even with still images much less moving video.

I will think of adding that pseudo type APL Patterns to the next version of my disk.

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post #558 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 07:11 AM
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Ted,

Just because no one is using APL patterns in a 3D-cube calibration environment, (edit...except for zoyd) doesn't mean that it isn't needed for certain display types and/or brands.

Compare a non APL window grayscale and gamma calibration to a 5% window with an 18% level surround on a VT30, VT50 or a VT60 and I think you'll see what I mean.

As to your reference to professional grade monitors, I would expect those to be more linear across various APL levels but that's speculation. What they do may or may not have anything to do with our consumer grade displays.

As to your other points, collectively, just because the patterns don't exist doesn't mean that you shouldn't be using them for certain major display types and models if your goal is a high precision calibration. Since currently these patterns don't exist, then one has to ask the question what kind of calibration are they really getting? Just a reminder, I'm not talking about all display, just the Panasonic plasmas and possibly others.

I would just think that if Lumagen wanted to sell more of these mini 3d processors, they'd have a way to display patterns appropriate for these displays that are likely to use them.

I'm heading out of town in a few minutes to be with family for the day. Will reply to later post after I return. Thanks.

....and Ted, this isn't personal. Just an observation as to how this type of calibration appears to be lacking as it relates to my particular display.

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post #559 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Ted,

Just because no one is using APL patterns in a 3D-cube calibration environment, (edit...except for zoyd) doesn't mean that it isn't needed for certain display types and/or brands.

Compare a non APL window grayscale and gamma calibration to a 5% window with an 18% level surround on a VT30, VT50 or a VT60 and I think you'll see what I mean.

As to your reference to professional grade monitors, I would expect those to be more linear across various APL levels but that's speculation. What they do may or may not have anything to do with our consumer grade displays.

As to your other points, collectively, just because the patterns don't exist doesn't mean that you shouldn't be using them for certain major display types and models if your goal is a high precision calibration. Since currently these patterns don't exist, then one has to ask the question what kind of calibration are they really getting? Just a reminder, I'm not talking about all display, just the Panasonic plasmas and possibly others.

I would just think that if Lumagen wanted to sell more of these mini 3d processors, they'd have a way to display patterns appropriate for these displays that are likely to use them.

I'm heading out of town in a few minutes to be with family for the day. Will reply to later post after I return. Thanks.

....and Ted, this isn't personal. Just an observation as to how this type of calibration appears to be lacking as it relates to my particular display.

Jim. Extreme Precision Calibration with Plasma is not possible. The Studios are working with Primary Grade 1 LCD Monitors and Projectors to preview the colors but they have a Plasma at the same room, not to take decisions based on Plasma, to check other things like black levels/shadow details/motion etc.

Generally Panasonic are dificult displays to calibrate for 1D Normal Calibration, 10-Step Grayscale and 6-Single Color Calibrations..... due to their power supply limitations, limiting output circuits etc.

KURO are more stable for 3D-Cube... but not available...

Calibrating with APL will show you somewthing different but that doesn't mean that is more accurate.

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post #560 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Ted,

Just because no one is using APL patterns in a 3D-cube calibration environment, (edit...except for zoyd) doesn't mean that it isn't needed for certain display types and/or brands.

Compare a non APL window grayscale and gamma calibration to a 5% window with an 18% level surround on a VT30, VT50 or a VT60 and I think you'll see what I mean.

As to your reference to professional grade monitors, I would expect those to be more linear across various APL levels but that's speculation. What they do may or may not have anything to do with our consumer grade displays.

As to your other points, collectively, just because the patterns don't exist doesn't mean that you shouldn't be using them for certain major display types and models if your goal is a high precision calibration. Since currently these patterns don't exist, then one has to ask the question what kind of calibration are they really getting? Just a reminder, I'm not talking about all display, just the Panasonic plasmas and possibly others.

I would just think that if Lumagen wanted to sell more of these mini 3d processors, they'd have a way to display patterns appropriate for these displays that are likely to use them.

I'm heading out of town in a few minutes to be with family for the day. Will reply to later post after I return. Thanks.

....and Ted, this isn't personal. Just an observation as to how this type of calibration appears to be lacking as it relates to my particular display.

As far as CMS calibration (onboard or with 3d cubes) the differences obtained using different pattern geometries is often overstated. Problems with plasma color reproduction in general are overstated. I ran a 6x6x6 cube verification on my display with three different pattern configurations and obtained the following:

eeColor 3dLUT performance relative to Rec709 2.2 gamma using 10% window on 20% background
Code:
No of test patches = 219
L*a*b* white reference = XYZ 95.046000 100.000000 108.910000
No of test patches in worst 10% are = 22
No of test patches in best 90% are = 197
Verify results:
  Total errors (CIEDE2000):     peak = 1.971956, avg = 0.488834
  Worst 10% errors (CIEDE2000): peak = 1.971956, avg = 1.287164
  Best  90% errors (CIEDE2000): peak = 0.886013, avg = 0.404177
  avg err X  0.264835, Y  0.293266, Z  0.400181
  avg err L* 0.337355, a* 0.620370, b* 0.599887

Repeatability of above measured several hours later, new set-up, etc.
Code:
No of test patches = 219
L*a*b* white reference = XYZ 94.993657 100.000000 109.756821
No of test patches in worst 10% are = 22
No of test patches in best 90% are = 197
Verify results:
  Total errors (CIEDE2000):     peak = 1.491858, avg = 0.441318
  Worst 10% errors (CIEDE2000): peak = 1.491858, avg = 1.022561
  Best  90% errors (CIEDE2000): peak = 0.761705, avg = 0.380274
  avg err X  0.229920, Y  0.314070, Z  0.425531
  avg err L* 0.333176, a* 0.555080, b* 0.333075

10% window on black background relative to 20% stimulus background
Code:
No of test patches = 219
L*a*b* white reference = XYZ 94.927767 100.000000 110.376823
No of test patches in worst 10% are = 22
No of test patches in best 90% are = 197
Verify results:
  Total errors (CIEDE2000):     peak = 3.116781, avg = 0.905157
  Worst 10% errors (CIEDE2000): peak = 3.116781, avg = 2.166750
  Best  90% errors (CIEDE2000): peak = 1.643771, avg = 0.772613
  avg err X  0.384667, Y  0.384580, Z  0.861589
  avg err L* 0.517235, a* 1.441281, b* 1.722490

The vast majority of errors are < 1 which is within the repeatability of the measurement and also imperceptible.

Just for kicks I also ran it with a 100% stimulus background
Code:
No of test patches = 219
L*a*b* white reference = XYZ 94.841326 100.000000 110.276552
No of test patches in worst 10% are = 22
No of test patches in best 90% are = 197
Verify results:
  Total errors (CIEDE2000):     peak = 5.531005, avg = 2.864356
  Worst 10% errors (CIEDE2000): peak = 5.531005, avg = 4.991678
  Best  90% errors (CIEDE2000): peak = 4.257132, avg = 2.648397
  avg err X  3.609502, Y  3.121450, Z  4.632205
  avg err L* 3.013708, a* 2.050504, b* 2.279260

An average 2.6 dE is smaller than I was expecting and then there is little if any content that drives the display at 100% load.
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post #561 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 05:57 PM
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imo all you guys have good points.

When profiling (in this case) plasma of-course you are going to have problems, not necessarily to overcome but to limit is the trick.
In my case I use LightSpace software to do a large profile. When converting to a LUT I find it very important to learn how to use or not to use any of LS filters, also what works well with any pre profiling settings I do with my VT60. Of-course I am talking about small refinements, but then again I didn't start going the large LUT route because I wanted to get kinda close to how well my display preforms.

Because of the advice from Steve and I agree, I use the 2+% window in my Radiance. I also find it helpful because of the laser in my meter I can pinpoint and therefore use the full window not just a smaller portion of it. However because of the limitations in window size of the Radiance, I have never tried say a 5% window with or without a APL frame.
And then I see charts that Chad B did using different window sizes with and without APL done on a VT60.

With all do respect for you guys, I still like see for myself if there are in fact any differences I can see. Its for that reason why I would like to see Lumagen add things like more window sizes and maybe APL frames. Also be able to process and store large LUT's.

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post #562 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Zoyd, what's your opinion about the 6.5% Square Patterns that the THX Calibrator Disk are using for Plasma 3D-Cube Profiling?

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post #563 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Jim, Is there available pattern generator with APL Patterns for 16 Million RGB Triplet Combination? No... It doesn't exist currently.

Not true at all, the VideoForges (1, SDI, 4K and virtual) support it, and now that the accupel 5000 support custom backgrounds they will also supported for triplets with APL in CalMAN. The built-in pattern generator for CalMAN supports APL and RGB triplets as do CalMAN Client 3 for Mac and PC.

You might see the underlying pattern here that SpectraCal sees a value in supporting it. I would also agree with Zoyd, that the problems are overstated.

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post #564 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Jim, Is there available pattern generator with APL Patterns for 16 Million RGB Triplet Combination? No... It doesn't exist currently.

Not true at all, the VideoForges (1, SDI, 4K and virtual) support it, and now that the accupel 5000 support custom backgrounds they will also supported for triplets with APL in CalMAN. The built-in pattern generator for CalMAN supports APL and RGB triplets as do CalMAN Client 3 for Mac and PC.

You might see the underlying pattern here that SpectraCal sees a value in supporting it. I would also agree with Zoyd, that the problems are overstated.

So with Current CalMAN, you can run a 16-Point Cube AutoCAL with Pseudo APL (Custom Background) or real APL (with selectable size), with Accupel 5000 or VideoForge?

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post #565 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:31 PM
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Zoyd, what's your opinion about the 6.5% Square Patterns that the THX Calibrator Disk are using for Plasma 3D-Cube Profiling?

I understand why they use it but in my opinion it does not follow theoretical best practices for calibrating devices which behave differently under different power loads. A patch set of 6.5% windows like that will probably have a mean stimulation of around 1% peak power and max 6.5%, this is far from typical usage. Again, I don't think you'll see a difference in the results compared to APL patterns but it will be measurable. Theoretically plasma calibration should be performed with a fixed load around 10-15% peak power. This corresponds to the middle of the range the display will most often operate at. Notice that it is also close to the standard "grey card" reflectivity, somehow I don't think that is a coincidence.
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post #566 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
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So with Current CalMAN, you can run a 16-Point Cube AutoCAL with Pseudo APL (Custom Background) or real APL (with selectable size), with Accupel 5000 or VideoForge?

5000 support is forth-comming.

I don't understand why you consider one pseudo and the other real?
If the APL is constant, the APL is constant?

The power level is selectable though.

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post #567 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Jim, Is there available pattern generator with APL Patterns for 16 Million RGB Triplet Combination? No... It doesn't exist currently.

Not true at all, the VideoForges (1, SDI, 4K and virtual) support it, and now that the accupel 5000 support custom backgrounds they will also supported for triplets with APL in CalMAN. The built-in pattern generator for CalMAN supports APL and RGB triplets as do CalMAN Client 3 for Mac and PC.

You might see the underlying pattern here that SpectraCal sees a value in supporting it. I would also agree with Zoyd, that the problems are overstated.

1) CalMAN Client 3 has not released yet.

2) VirtualForce is for Mac, No solution yet for PC I'm . I'm talking about PC.

3) Accupel Custom Background will be supported at CalMAN 5.2 final release.... has not released yet.

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post #568 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

So with Current CalMAN, you can run a 16-Point Cube AutoCAL with Pseudo APL (Custom Background) or real APL (with selectable size), with Accupel 5000 or VideoForge?

5000 support is forth-comming.

I don't understand why you consider one pseudo and the other real?
If the APL is constant, the APL is constant?

The power level is selectable though.

It's the same. My description was wrong...

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post #569 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

1) CalMAN Client 3 has not released yet.

2) VirtualForce is for Mac, No solution yet for PC I'm . I'm talking about PC.

3) Accupel Custom Background will be supported at CalMAN 5.2 final release.... has not released yet.

The VideoForge 1, SDI, and 4K are all available right now. The built-in pattern generator has supported it for sometime.

Nothing I said was incorrect.

My point was there are options currently available and we are working on making it available in as many future projects as possible.

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post #570 of 825 Old 07-28-2013, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

1) CalMAN Client 3 has not released yet.

2) VirtualForce is for Mac, No solution yet for PC I'm . I'm talking about PC.

3) Accupel Custom Background will be supported at CalMAN 5.2 final release.... has not released yet.

The VideoForge 1, SDI, and 4K are all available right now. The built-in pattern generator has supported it for sometime.

Nothing I said was incorrect.

Is the Client 3 a seperate download?

I can't connect to the CalMAN Client 3 using CalMAN 5 Home Theater 5.2.0.1272 Beta (Build 1272-0626.1)? Error Number 9...

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