Mits WD73835 cms tracking is terrible! Would radiance fix? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 09-17-2012, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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CIE plot.docx 94k .docx file

Just started playing around with Calman 5. One of the features i was looking forward to was saturation sweeps as i always felt my mits wd73835 dlp did not have a correctly functioning cms. Looks like i was correct. Attached is a pic of the cie plot with color, tint, perfect color, perfect tint, and all sm settings at default measured with my i1pro. You can see at the various saturation points how out of whack the gamut is. Now i know why all my cms work has never really seemed to improve the final product. At least i can save time and calibrate grayscale only as there is no point to messing with the gamut. My question is if i went with a radiance would that resolve the issue and allow for an accurate gamut calibration?
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post #2 of 15 Old 09-18-2012, 01:15 PM
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Nothing can fully correct a video display that can't achieve 100% saturation for red, green, or blue. Those are the 3 primary colors you measure and calibrate with a CMS. If these colors are "inside" the Rec709/HDTV color triangle, no processor can move the measured points farther out (increase saturation). You have some issues with red and green and blue saturation... all of them are essentially "inside" the color triangle. This could be a result of not starting with the correct mode or perhaps having the Color control turned down too far or some other setting. You should also NOT be using a color filter to set the Color control... no matter what anybody says, the filter method is nearly a complete waste of time. Every set of instructions for using a color filter to set the Color and Tint controls always says something like... if the color or tint do not look correct after using the filter, readjust them until the images look more natural. You do that readjustment BY EYE without a filter. So why not just adjust color and tint by eye in the first place since there are so many variables that cause the color filter method to fail when it LOOKS to be properly adjusted.

So just because you used a filter doesn't mean you have the color and tint controls adjusted correctly -- in fact, your measurements indicate that both controls are probably mis-adjusted.

Using the matrix calibration capability, the video processor (Radiance in this case) should be able to correct the measured position for any point "inside" the Rec709/HDTV color triangle except the 100% measurements. If you start with the 100% measurements at the correct points or "outside" the triangle (may be possible with readjustment of Color and Tint), those points will ALL (100% and everything below 100%) be calibrated correctly by the CMS autocal.

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post #3 of 15 Old 09-18-2012, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njfoses View Post

CIE plot.docx 94k .docx file
Just started playing around with Calman 5. One of the features i was looking forward to was saturation sweeps as i always felt my mits wd73835 dlp did not have a correctly functioning cms. Looks like i was correct. Attached is a pic of the cie plot with color, tint, perfect color, perfect tint, and all sm settings at default measured with my i1pro. You can see at the various saturation points how out of whack the gamut is. Now i know why all my cms work has never really seemed to improve the final product. At least i can save time and calibrate grayscale only as there is no point to messing with the gamut. My question is if i went with a radiance would that resolve the issue and allow for an accurate gamut calibration?

it could get much better for the points under 100% saturation


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post #4 of 15 Old 09-18-2012, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Nothing can fully correct a video display that can't achieve 100% saturation for red, green, or blue. Those are the 3 primary colors you measure and calibrate with a CMS. If these colors are "inside" the Rec709/HDTV color triangle, no processor can move the measured points farther out (increase saturation). You have some issues with red and green and blue saturation... all of them are essentially "inside" the color triangle. This could be a result of not starting with the correct mode or perhaps having the Color control turned down too far or some other setting. You should also NOT be using a color filter to set the Color control... no matter what anybody says, the filter method is nearly a complete waste of time. Every set of instructions for using a color filter to set the Color and Tint controls always says something like... if the color or tint do not look correct after using the filter, readjust them until the images look more natural. You do that readjustment BY EYE without a filter. So why not just adjust color and tint by eye in the first place since there are so many variables that cause the color filter method to fail when it LOOKS to be properly adjusted.
So just because you used a filter doesn't mean you have the color and tint controls adjusted correctly -- in fact, your measurements indicate that both controls are probably mis-adjusted.
Using the matrix calibration capability, the video processor (Radiance in this case) should be able to correct the measured position for any point "inside" the Rec709/HDTV color triangle except the 100% measurements. If you start with the 100% measurements at the correct points or "outside" the triangle (may be possible with readjustment of Color and Tint), those points will ALL (100% and everything below 100%) be calibrated correctly by the CMS autocal.

Thanks for the reply. The graph i posted was with color and tint at default and all cms settings at default. I have never used a filter in any of my calibrations, i have always left color and tint at default since the display has a full cms (which i now know is non-linear.) If i max out the color control the saturation does improve. Would it make sense to max the color control and then have the radiance work from there?
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post #5 of 15 Old 09-18-2012, 04:30 PM
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What meter are you using?

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post #6 of 15 Old 09-18-2012, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njfoses View Post

CIE plot.docx 94k .docx file
Just started playing around with Calman 5. One of the features i was looking forward to was saturation sweeps as i always felt my mits wd73835 dlp did not have a correctly functioning cms. Looks like i was correct. Attached is a pic of the cie plot with color, tint, perfect color, perfect tint, and all sm settings at default measured with my i1pro. You can see at the various saturation points how out of whack the gamut is. Now i know why all my cms work has never really seemed to improve the final product. At least i can save time and calibrate grayscale only as there is no point to messing with the gamut. My question is if i went with a radiance would that resolve the issue and allow for an accurate gamut calibration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

What meter are you using?


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post #7 of 15 Old 09-19-2012, 11:48 AM
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Not only "What meter are you using?" but also... if I recall correctly, the display you are calibrating is a DLP rear projection product with a UHP projection lamp of some kind? Right? (if it is an LED or CCFL LCD panel, your meter, depending on what meter you are using, may be inaccurate).

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post #8 of 15 Old 09-19-2012, 02:04 PM
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he is using the i1Pro, as indicated in the first post


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post #9 of 15 Old 09-19-2012, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Not only "What meter are you using?" but also... if I recall correctly, the display you are calibrating is a DLP rear projection product with a UHP projection lamp of some kind? Right? (if it is an LED or CCFL LCD panel, your meter, depending on what meter you are using, may be inaccurate).

i1pro is my meter, and yes it is a dlp rear projection lamp based set.
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post #10 of 15 Old 09-19-2012, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by njfoses View Post

i1pro is my meter, and yes it is a dlp rear projection lamp based set.

Are you measuring in total darkness?

I'm just wondering if the gamut might look a bit shifted because of ambient light, my initial thought was the meter might be off, but I doubt that with an i1 Pro.

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post #11 of 15 Old 09-20-2012, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you measuring in total darkness?
I'm just wondering if the gamut might look a bit shifted because of ambient light, my initial thought was the meter might be off, but I doubt that with an i1 Pro.

Yes it is total darkness. A few years ago a very well respected calibrator informed me not to waste any time on the cms with the mit's model i have and just to leave all cms control's at default. At the time myself along with others didn't necessarily believe him that no improvements could be made. Now that i have the ability to measure the various saturation points it makes sense. Im just not sure if it's worth investing in a radiance to at least have the "inside" of the gamut corrected or if it is even correctable at all.
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post #12 of 15 Old 09-20-2012, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by njfoses View Post

Im just not sure if it's worth investing in a radiance to at least have the "inside" of the gamut corrected or if it is even correctable at all.

The interior would be entirely correctable with a radiance.
The edge will still be off.

How much is that worth to you, isn't a question I can answer.

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post #13 of 15 Old 09-20-2012, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by njfoses View Post

Yes it is total darkness. A few years ago a very well respected calibrator informed me not to waste any time on the cms with the mit's model i have and just to leave all cms control's at default. At the time myself along with others didn't necessarily believe him that no improvements could be made. Now that i have the ability to measure the various saturation points it makes sense. Im just not sure if it's worth investing in a radiance to at least have the "inside" of the gamut corrected or if it is even correctable at all.

Regarding worth, I'd compare the cost of your TV versus the Radiance (and possibly against a new display that would have better saturation and luminance tracking inside the gamut to begin with). Of course, only you can decide whether the issue is worth spending several grand on or not.


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post #14 of 15 Old 09-20-2012, 12:23 PM
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I would recommend setting the color control somewhat higher to see if you can get red, green, and blue to get closer to their reference coordinates. And try different picture modes also... some modes may shift the color coordinates trying to achieve some effect that only the marketng dept. thinks is worth anything.

I've reviewed one Mitsubishi UHP RPTV and don't recall the color problems you are measuring. Nor did I find it a waste of time to use the CMS controls... that was maybe 2 years ago or a little more... at the dawn of 3D. That TV measured quite well after calibration as I recall. In fact, I still have the measurement data... this is a 73838... their first year they produced 3D-capable RPTVs



Note that in the above "before cal" measurements, all primaries are slightly over-saturated (outside the Rec709 color triangle) and all the secondaries are fairly messed up.

The next image is the after cal result which is quite excellent indicating the CMS controls work just fine... of course if your model is older or newer, who knows what Mits did to the CMS controls. By the way, the "after" results were measured in "ADV1" mode so that the CMS controls were accessible.


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post #15 of 15 Old 09-20-2012, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I would recommend setting the color control somewhat higher to see if you can get red, green, and blue to get closer to their reference coordinates. And try different picture modes also... some modes may shift the color coordinates trying to achieve some effect that only the marketng dept. thinks is worth anything.
I've reviewed one Mitsubishi UHP RPTV and don't recall the color problems you are measuring. Nor did I find it a waste of time to use the CMS controls... that was maybe 2 years ago or a little more... at the dawn of 3D. That TV measured quite well after calibration as I recall. In fact, I still have the measurement data... this is a 73838... their first year they produced 3D-capable RPTVs

Note that in the above "before cal" measurements, all primaries are slightly over-saturated (outside the Rec709 color triangle) and all the secondaries are fairly messed up.
The next image is the after cal result which is quite excellent indicating the CMS controls work just fine... of course if your model is older or newer, who knows what Mits did to the CMS controls. By the way, the "after" results were measured in "ADV1" mode so that the CMS controls were accessible.

My model is the year prior which is also 3d capable. The 838 model moved the calibration controls to the user menu. My model has perfect color and perfect tint in the user menu but everything else has to be accessed in the service me nu. I would be curious to see those results at all saturation points though. I can raise the color control and get the 100% saturation results to look pretty good but now that i know what the other saturation points look like its not even worth my time to mess with. Im waiting for an 80"+ flat panel with better pic quality and motion handling than the current sharp's so i will prob just stick with what i have for now.
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