Bias lighting for TV mounted in alcove? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 09-18-2012, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone,

I am considering adding bias lighting to my 65" Panasonic Plasma that is mounted on a Chief PDRUB mount and basically sits in an older style alcove that is designed for RPTV (see attachment).

Will I get much out of bias lighting? I am not going to be able to re-paint the alcove or wall due to WAF.

If the answer is yet, can anyone recommend a specific product for this application? I've seen some really neat looking LED kits but I am concerned about the actual color temperature of those.

Thanks!

DSC00858.jpg 379k .jpg file
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post #2 of 22 Old 09-18-2012, 02:12 PM
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Bias lighting is great.

With the color of the room, nothing is going to be perfect, but you should try to get as close to D65 as possible.

Possibly using a CCFL may be easier to get something close to D65 than going with LED strips. Either way it should make late night viewing a much more pleasurable experience.

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post #3 of 22 Old 09-18-2012, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Bias lighting is great.
With the color of the room, nothing is going to be perfect, but you should try to get as close to D65 as possible.
Possibly using a CCFL may be easier to get something close to D65 than going with LED strips. Either way it should make late night viewing a much more pleasurable experience.

Thanks. I have put out feelers on some of the LED light kit distributors to see what they can tell me about color temperature. LED would certainly be the easiest way to go as I could put six 12" light bars in (one on each side and two each top and bottom) and then run them with extensions back down to a control/power unit in the entertainment cabinet... It would also give me IR remote capability which is a huge plus.

If anyone has any specific product recommendations I would love to hear them.
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post #4 of 22 Old 09-18-2012, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post


If anyone has any specific product recommendations I would love to hear them.


http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm

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post #5 of 22 Old 09-18-2012, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm

OK, thanks, I will consider that. Too bad their only remote option is RF... I rather enjoy having all of my remote functions integrated to my Harmony One. Also, it's not clear if the cords are long enough for me to run it back through the conduit and down to my cabinet.
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post #6 of 22 Old 09-18-2012, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm

OK, thanks, I will consider that. Too bad their only remote option is RF... I rather enjoy having all of my remote functions integrated to my Harmony One. Also, it's not clear if the cords are long enough for me to run it back through the conduit and down to my cabinet.
Actually, there are two IR automated switching options at our site. All cord lengths are also listed at our site in the model literature. Extension cords are an option as well.

All the LED products on the market that we have tested, and claimed to be 6500K, have been no closer than 7500K. Most are at least 8000K. The reason we have tested them is because we want to offer an LED bias light product. Thus far, no one has been able to provide us with an LED solution that has the right spectral performance.

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A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

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post #7 of 22 Old 09-18-2012, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks George, I will check into the ideallumes. How many lights would be needed in my situation? I would need to mount them behind the TV probably using velcro.
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post #8 of 22 Old 09-18-2012, 08:48 PM
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The two lights in the Panelight model should be sufficient. I suggest mounting them above and below the wall mount bracket in a manner that allows you to reach them with your hand to adjust the rotating baffle tubes to tweak how much light escapes from each.
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post #9 of 22 Old 09-18-2012, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

The two lights in the Panelight model should be sufficient. I suggest mounting them above and below the wall mount bracket in a manner that allows you to reach them with your hand to adjust the rotating baffle tubes to tweak how much light escapes from each.

OK, I will check that kit on your website George. Exactly what would I need to order to get the two light Panelight model as well as cords that are at least 6' long (or are they regular AC cords?) and an IR integrated controller?

Thanks George.
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post #10 of 22 Old 09-18-2012, 09:25 PM
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post #11 of 22 Old 09-25-2012, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Hello everyone,
I am considering adding bias lighting to my 65" Panasonic Plasma that is mounted on a Chief PDRUB mount and basically sits in an older style alcove that is designed for RPTV (see attachment).
Will I get much out of bias lighting? I am not going to be able to re-paint the alcove or wall due to WAF.
If the answer is yet, can anyone recommend a specific product for this application? I've seen some really neat looking LED kits but I am concerned about the actual color temperature of those.
Thanks!
DSC00858.jpg 379k .jpg file

I just got one from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007TG5EG8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00 . I like the ease of install with double sided tape and that it is USB powered so it turns off with the display. I don't know if it helped the overall appearance of the display but it sure makes it easier on the eyes when watching programs at night. My walls are not white, so what I am thinking of doing is posting up a white poster board on the wall behind the display that can't be seen from the front.

Two before and one after photos:

At night no lights on.

At night with room lights on.

During the day no room lights on. Really need a picture from night with the bias lights on to see the real difference. If you are interested in seeing one let me know and I will take one and post it.
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post #12 of 22 Old 09-25-2012, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree that USB powered is great, especially for newer TVs that have USB ports. However, the color temperature is important to me and apparently the LED lights are much higher than D65 color temperature which means the picture calibration will be negatively impacted. Also, in your case, one light is probably not enough, you probably need four.

I am still considering the Idealume but it is on the pricey side of what I have looked at.
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post #13 of 22 Old 09-25-2012, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Also, just another data point, the owner/operator of barlighting.com says that the color temp of their bar light kits is 6000-7000K. I have asked him if they will take them back if they are not in this spec. smile.gif
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post #14 of 22 Old 09-25-2012, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I agree that USB powered is great, especially for newer TVs that have USB ports. However, the color temperature is important to me and apparently the LED lights are much higher than D65 color temperature which means the picture calibration will be negatively impacted. Also, in your case, one light is probably not enough, you probably need four.
I am still considering the Idealume but it is on the pricey side of what I have looked at.

The one from Amazon is 50+ inches and I needed to cut about 2" to fit my display. I have no idea how to tell what the color tempature is. Antec says the following on their website for the six LED kit, "The color and brightness of the LEDs are carefully calibrated to achieve the optimal viewing experience and increase your monitor’s perceived contrast ratio – making blacks blacker and colors more vibrant." Anybody can say anything but thats what they claim, they don't state an actual temperature. I couldn't find my model on their website.
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post #15 of 22 Old 09-25-2012, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DrewM View Post

The one from Amazon is 50+ inches and I needed to cut about 2" to fit my display. I have no idea how to tell what the color tempature is. Antec says the following on their website for the six LED kit, "The color and brightness of the LEDs are carefully calibrated to achieve the optimal viewing experience and increase your monitor’s perceived contrast ratio – making blacks blacker and colors more vibrant." Anybody can say anything but thats what they claim, they don't state an actual temperature. I couldn't find my model on their website.

Just found this http://www.antec.com/soundscience/hdtv-bias-lighting.php
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post #16 of 22 Old 09-26-2012, 04:59 AM
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jmpage2, does the TV sit forward of the alcove? Is it a 2012 model? Ideally you want to control the spill so that light doesn't bounce back onto the shiny (or in the ST50's case, clear) edge of the TV.
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post #17 of 22 Old 09-26-2012, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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jmpage2, does the TV sit forward of the alcove? Is it a 2012 model? Ideally you want to control the spill so that light doesn't bounce back onto the shiny (or in the ST50's case, clear) edge of the TV.

It's a 2011 TV, a VT30.

The TV is normally pulled out on the mount so that it is effectively flush with the alcove.
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post #18 of 22 Old 09-26-2012, 06:36 PM
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Quoting color temperature is essentially a worthless specification for bias lighting (or for video displays). Color temperature is primarily influenced by red and blue. You can subtract or add HUGE amounts of green and the color temp will barely change.

That is why you ALWAYS want to specify d65 as the bias lighting specification. 6500K (actually 6504K) measured color temperature can have a lot or very little green, there is (almost) nothing about 6500K that controls how much green is in the light (and visible to your eye). So your "6500K" lights from some source other than Cinemaquest/Ideal-Lume are a total crap-shoot as to how close they come to the d65 reference point.

6500K is an essentially worthless calibration target/spec because it doesn't much control the amount of green in the light. d65 is a single specific point in color space that can only be attained when red, green, and blue are all properly balanced.

d65 means that the light being produced/measured is roughly 72% green wavelengths, 21% red wavelengths, and 7% blue wavelengths. To the human vision sysem, this looks fairly white under most conditions (though our visual system can be fooled by quite a few things... if you surround d65 with light-bright-blue, d65 will look yellow because of the way our vision system works, for example). If you remove some green wavelengths, the light will still measure 6500K as long as you maintain the (aproximate) 21:7 ratio of red to blue light (3:1). So if you remove half of the green wavelengths so you measure only a total of 36% green light, as long as red and blue maintain the 3:1 ratio, the light will still measure 6500K. In this example, that would mean 36% green light, 38% red light, and 26% blue light (percentages rounded for illustration purposes). Obviously this second example isn't going to look white... it will be very magenta looking because there's not enough geen wavelengths combined with the red and blue -- but it will still measure 6500K. Anything labeled "6500K" by the seller, could range from being MUCH too green to MUCH too magenta and still meet the 6500K "spec".

That's the fallicy of buying "6500K" bias lighting from some "general" supplier who doesn't really understand (or care about) your application versus purchasing a product developed by and quality-controlled by a someone IN the home theater industry who IS concerned about the end result you achieve(like Cinemaquest/Ideal-Lume).
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post #19 of 22 Old 09-26-2012, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Doug that is helpful. I am having a hard time finding a reasonably priced IR outlet control kit, do you know of anything on the market that would work with the idealumes?
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post #20 of 22 Old 09-27-2012, 08:32 AM
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The following are pictures with the Antec lights at night. The first one is with the walls their normal color and the second one is with white poster board behind the display, their is a subtle difference. To me it appears that the poster board helped out.



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post #21 of 22 Old 09-29-2012, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

It's a 2011 TV, a VT30.
The TV is normally pulled out on the mount so that it is effectively flush with the alcove.

Shouldn't be an issue with the VT30, unless you view off-axis and get a reflection off the edge of the TV. At least the metal accent on the VT30 is considerably duller than the highly reflective chrome edging of this year's models.
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post #22 of 22 Old 09-30-2012, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Quoting color temperature is essentially a worthless specification for bias lighting (or for video displays). Color temperature is primarily influenced by red and blue. You can subtract or add HUGE amounts of green and the color temp will barely change.

That is why you ALWAYS want to specify d65 as the bias lighting specification. 6500K (actually 6504K) measured color temperature can have a lot or very little green, there is (almost) nothing about 6500K that controls how much green is in the light (and visible to your eye). So your "6500K" lights from some source other than Cinemaquest/Ideal-Lume are a total crap-shoot as to how close they come to the d65 reference point.

6500K is an essentially worthless calibration target/spec because it doesn't much control the amount of green in the light. d65 is a single specific point in color space that can only be attained when red, green, and blue are all properly balanced.

d65 means that the light being produced/measured is roughly 72% green wavelengths, 21% red wavelengths, and 7% blue wavelengths. To the human vision sysem, this looks fairly white under most conditions (though our visual system can be fooled by quite a few things... if you surround d65 with light-bright-blue, d65 will look yellow because of the way our vision system works, for example). If you remove some green wavelengths, the light will still measure 6500K as long as you maintain the (aproximate) 21:7 ratio of red to blue light (3:1). So if you remove half of the green wavelengths so you measure only a total of 36% green light, as long as red and blue maintain the 3:1 ratio, the light will still measure 6500K. In this example, that would mean 36% green light, 38% red light, and 26% blue light (percentages rounded for illustration purposes). Obviously this second example isn't going to look white... it will be very magenta looking because there's not enough geen wavelengths combined with the red and blue -- but it will still measure 6500K. Anything labeled "6500K" by the seller, could range from being MUCH too green to MUCH too magenta and still meet the 6500K "spec".

That's the fallicy of buying "6500K" bias lighting from some "general" supplier who doesn't really understand (or care about) your application versus purchasing a product developed by and quality-controlled by a someone IN the home theater industry who IS concerned about the end result you achieve(like Cinemaquest/Ideal-Lume).
Doug brings up some important points regarding theory, but referring to color temperature has legitimate value in the consumer world, as opposed to the professional arena. Such terminology allows many consumers to quickly differentiate between very large differences in lighting color quality when sorting through all the options on a store shelf. It should also be kept in mind that there are two contexts in which the term D65/d65 can be used. The CIE D65 specification applied to daylight simulators in the lighting industry refers to a spectrum, not just a white point. That application has very broad tolerances when it comes to white point. In the motion imaging industry, D65 refers to a much more precise white point, with comparatively narrow tolerances, and less concern with the overall spectral power distribution. These issues are rather complex for the average consumer or video hobbyist to comprehend, and even many industry professionals still get confused about them. Most people have been taught a little about Lord Kelvin in school, and some may remember why the Kelvin scale refers to both temperature and color. Far fewer consumers have any familiarity whatsoever with CIE chromaticity and "D" points, let alone terms like "spectral power distribution" or "metamerism." It's for these reasons that the lighting industry, and to some degree the video industry, use color temperature terminology, and simplified tolerance qualifications like color rendering index.

In practice, the use of 6500K color temperature in consumer lighting specifications and marketing is even less precise than Doug describes. This is especially problematic in consumer LED product claims and literature. My company has sought a suitable LED replacement for fluorescent lamps for many years. We have seen references here in this forum and elsewhere in the market to LED products claiming to be 6500K, or D65, for years. In almost every case, we have purchased samples for testing to see if such products could be added to our store. We have yet to find any consumer LED solutions that meet the right color requirements for correct video bias lighting. In almost every case, LEDs sold as 6500K are far too blue. They typically start around 8000K or even higher. I have come to suspect that the Chinese lighting manufacturers just lump all blue-ish looking lighting into a general category they call "6500K."

My company has dedicated its efforts over the last 14 years to develop products and solutions that address the requirements of what Joe Kane refers to as "the ideal viewing environment" for correct video systems. Along the way we have learned many valuable things about color quality and human color perception. Our professional bias lighting product has become a world wide video industry reference, being used by experts such as: NIST, Technicolor, Deluxe, THX, ILM, ISF, Dreamworks Animation, Dolby Labs, etc . The consumer models we offer have been found suitable for many professional applications as well. We have seen repeat orders for the consumer products from the likes of Technicolor, Deluxe, Universal Studios, etc. Our goal was to simplify the process of locating, configuring, and implementing correct bias lighting for video systems that strive for reference image reproduction.

We are advocates, along with the founders of this forum, for imaging science principles and practical solutions. There is much confusion and misinformation in the consumer market regarding what composes video best practices and viewing quality. Viewing environment conditions are just as important to picture quality and the viewing experience as any other factor in program reproduction. Getting professional results justifies the extra effort and attention to detail.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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