eeColor - Professional calibration with LightSpace CMS - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 15 Old 09-28-2012, 02:01 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Who has an eeColor box (the original eeColor box, not a re-worked one from another manufacturer)?

We have added the eeColor LUT format to LightSpace CMS and we are looking for some testers...

The eeColor box seems to only work with TV legal level display, and we are working with Entertainment Experience on addressing the issue - adding full range data as well as TV legal capabilities (PC and TV level options).

Working with TV legal only means working with standard home TVs and projectors, so all should be OK for most home use applications.

So, if you have an eeColor LUT box, and would like to test the LightSpace CMS professional level calibration system please drop me a line.

steve@lightillusion.com

For information on LightSpace, the Demo download, and operation manuals, etc., please see the Light Illusion website.

Performing calibration using LightSpace CMS is very different to the home use calibration systems, and time will need to be spent understanding how LightSpace works. So, it is best to download the demo version first, and spend time playing with it in 'demo' mode (virtual probe), reading the on-line calibration workflow and user guides to have a full understanding before requesting a test license.

You can also ask questions directly, or better, via the Light Illusion Forums.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 Old 09-29-2012, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Does no-one use the eeColor box???

I was under the impression it was used a fair bit...
But maybe not.
We are also working on integrating the Lumagen box, but it will be a couple of weeks before we have that operational, hence the desire for test feedback on the eeColor box that works already.

I do stress though that LightSpace CMS is a very different calibration system to the standard ones used within the home market at the moment.
This may make the software unsuitable for such use as it is based on the professional market.
Again, this is why we are after feedback from users.
It maybe that this market is not after the level of calibration control we provide?

Cheers,

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #3 of 15 Old 09-29-2012, 08:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 4,003
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

It maybe that this market is not after the level of calibration control we provide?
Cheers,
Steve

It is the hope that those attending the AVS Calibration forum want the best that can be had from their displays and that includes external equipment as has been demonstrated in the interest in the Calman 5 ability to generate 5x5x5 3D LUTs with the Lumagen Radiance series VPs.

I think maybe two of us have or had an ee ColorBox - http://spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=3357

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is offline  
post #4 of 15 Old 09-29-2012, 09:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
Posts: 4,434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Unfortunately, only a small percentage of households consider proper calibration.. of those, only a small percentage will purchase a processor or something like the eeColor box or similar.. most likely using something from Lumagen or DVDO now...

Now, when the $599-$799 17^3 LUT box hits, well, perhaps those households who even consider calibration will smile.gif

Need to find a Professional Calibrator? Click Here to PM me with your Display & City

Calibrator List - Pioneer ISFccc Interface

Calibration Reports - Pioneer

 

ControlCAL™
Designed by Calibrators for Calibrators™

No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

turbe is offline  
post #5 of 15 Old 09-29-2012, 11:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Michael TLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: THX/ISF Calibrationist/Instructor, Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 138
Greetings

Law of diminishing returns ... double your money input to go from 95% to 97%? That's an individual choice ...

Throw all that money in and then go use a $250 probe to do all your work? biggrin.gif

Regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

Michael TLV is offline  
post #6 of 15 Old 09-29-2012, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Hi Buzz, indeed - I remember our previous discussions.
An eval license is on the way to you.
Let me know yoru thoughts ;o)

As for LightSpace calibration - this is the system the majority of the top post houses use to calibrate their displays that are used to grade the DVDs and Blu-ray films you watch at home.
Being able to calibrate to the same level has obvious advantages...

And the relative calibration compared to the existing home user system is a lot more than a few percent.
It is hard to qualify as the approach to calibration is very different.
The only way to understand is to try the system and see the difference.

We use a high-level colour maths engine for calibration, which means the concept of target space is isolated from the profiling.
You do not need to set the target before profiling for example.
The profile is a just a measurement of the display's real characteristics, and knows nothing about the eventual calibration.
The colour maths engine can then be used to direct the calibration to any colour space - so long as the display can match it - it has an underlying gamut greater than the target.
But, there is no need to know the target before profiling, which is very different to alternative calibration systems, and can indeed be hard to get you head around.
An obvious example that should be understandable is there is no need to set the gamma target before profiling (or gamut).
Make sense?

So, do have a look at the LightSpace CMS demo and ask any questions.

We are genuinely interested in feedback fro the home calibration market.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #7 of 15 Old 09-29-2012, 02:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 4,003
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 903
@Steve - I am a member of your forum at Light Illusion and hopefully will be able to use that location and AVS to get a handle on correct calibration procedures with 3D LUTs. I'm betting there are lots of home theaters down in Naples begging for the best calibration available today. They just don't know it yet. wink.gif

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is offline  
post #8 of 15 Old 09-29-2012, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Looking forward to your feedback smile.gif
See you here and on the Light Illusion forums!

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #9 of 15 Old 09-30-2012, 04:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 227
The average consumer has no idea what hardware or software is used in post-production and will have zero recognition for your product/company's name. I'm a calibrator with 34 years working for Eastman Kodak Co. on a wide range of professional imaging systems including digital scanning equipment used in many film restorations (Snow White among many others) and I've never heard of your company or products. So you have that working against you. Most consumers are going to be unfamiliar and most calibrators are unfamiliar.

Since the eeColor device was released without fully developed calibration capabilities and was only referred to as being potentially useful as a calibration device at some time in the future, Few people (I would think, anyway) would not have purchased the eeColor device based on its future POTENTIAL use as an external calibration device. It is (or was last time I knew) a ~$1500 device which would put it in a price category that makes most home theater enthusiasts consider whether it is a worthwhile purchase for their system. Since it was released with only a promise that "calibration is coming" and it wouldn't initially be a solution for calibration, those who have a need for an external calibration device probably would look at a Lumagen Radiance Mini in the same retail price neighborhood since it's major reason for existence is calibration with image quality enhancement as a side benefit.

I do product reviews, consulting, and calibration... all of which I'm paid for (and need to be paid for as it's my only income since retiring from Kodak 6 years ago). I'm not really in a position to be doing "free" product evaluations even though I'm trained in image quality analysis, color science, calibration (consumer and for professional systems from input to output). I reviewed the eeColor processor for Widescreen Review and liked it but had some philosophical issues with it that were challenging (pro AND con). So I'm very familiar with and fully equipped (including a Konica-Minolta CS-200 Chroma meter that sells for well over $10,000) to do detailed evaluations for something like a calibration solution using the eeColor processor, but I can't take on something like this on a pro bono basis. There may well be other highly qualified calibrators who are in the same boat... time is money for them. So I think expecting many volunteers from the internet/consumer eeColor owner/user installed base is probably wishful thinking.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #10 of 15 Old 10-01-2012, 01:06 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Although we don't like making promises in advance, we are working with Lumagen on interfacing with their box...
The slight issue there is it having a 5 point LUT, which is not large enough for accurate calibration. A 16 point is the minimum needed, but Lumagen are keen to develop their box further, so we are developing the LightSpace CMS integration now.

I agree that most home TV owners will never bother with calibration, but home cinema users do, and we have been contacted by many already showing keen interest in the ability to calibrate in exactly the same way as professional grading operation do. For some reason calibrators are keen to contact us directly, rather than reply to threads...

We have three home calibrators learning LightSpace CMS at the moment - it is very interesting helping teach them the very different approach required for professional level calibration biggrin.gif

To get an ideal of Light Illusion professional users see: http://www.lightillusion.com/customer_list.html
I'm sure you will recognise a few of the companies listed smile.gif

The eeColor box (which is also sold by other calibration operations under different names) does work as a LUT box already.
We have one here, and it works perfectly with LUTs generated by LightSpace CMS for home TV/Projection use.
We are working with Entertainment Experience to improve the box as it needs full-range data capability for use in professional environments, and they are working on that now.

We don't pay for testing, but we provide the software license as a special deal, which obviously has a decent value.
Calibrators can then use the software to generate business.

Calibration via LightSpace CMS is very different to the normal home calibration systems though, and there is a need to think about calibration in a very different way.
To assist with this a new 'User Guide' is in the progress of being generated - the in-progress version can be seen here: http://www.lightillusion.com/idiots_guide.html

Cheers,

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #11 of 15 Old 10-01-2012, 05:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
avsform1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 504
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

It is the hope that those attending the AVS Calibration forum want the best that can be had from their displays and that includes external equipment as has been demonstrated in the interest in the Calman 5 ability to generate 5x5x5 3D LUTs with the Lumagen Radiance series VPs.
I think maybe two of us have or had an ee ColorBox - http://spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=3357
i sent my eeColor to be upgraded to the color

The other would be me. Due to the busy work schedule I haven't had a chance yo do any of my own equipment calibration. But looking forward to next weekend with the 3LUT and Radiance.
avsform1 is offline  
post #12 of 15 Old 10-16-2012, 02:05 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 219
For those of you interested, the results using the eeColor box with LightSpace CMS are looking very good.

We have been working just with TV legal displays, due to the eeColor box not working with data level displays correctly at the moment, but Entertainment Experience are working on that.
But for home calibration that is not really a problem as all displays and image sources expect TV legal range (the data requirement is just for our professional post-production customers really).

We will have a first pass Lumagen integration complete shortly too.

As said before, the difference with LightSpace CMS calibration workflows compared to normal home calibration systems does result in quite a difference in understanding of capabilities and needs.
Thanks to those who have been helping by using LightSpace as part of our testing process we are getting a handle on how best to present the necessary information on how LightSpace works.

If you are interested there are on-going discussions on the Light Illusion forums.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #13 of 15 Old 11-05-2012, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 219
We now have the eeColor Box and Radiance fully working with LightSpace CMS.

The results are very impressive, with very accurate 65 point LUTs in the eeColor box, and 21 step Grey Scale 1D LUTs and 5 point 3DLUT in the Radiance.
This is providing a very high level of calibration.

The info on the eeColor box may be of particular interest for those looking for a cost-effective way to use 3D LUT for home calibration.

http://www.lightillusion.com/eecolor.html

Feel free to ask any questions.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #14 of 15 Old 11-05-2012, 10:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gtgray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,423
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

We now have the eeColor Box and Radiance fully working with LightSpace CMS.
The results are very impressive, with very accurate 65 point LUTs in the eeColor box, and 21 step Grey Scale 1D LUTs and 5 point 3DLUT in the Radiance.
This is providing a very high level of calibration.
The info on the eeColor box may be of particular interest for those looking for a cost-effective way to use 3D LUT for home calibration.
http://www.lightillusion.com/eecolor.html
Feel free to ask any questions.
Cheers,
Steve

Judging from the pricing on your web site Lightspace CMS is priced far beyond all but the deepest pocketed consumer especially when exchange rates come into play. Perhaps home calibration with LightSpace needs a different price point.

Just another blank signature.
gtgray is offline  
post #15 of 15 Old 11-06-2012, 12:57 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Hi,

I've replied via a PM.
I hope the info helps, and explains our approach to home users.
This is a new market for Light Illusion, and we are aware it is different.

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off