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Old 10-12-2012, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Last night I calibrated my Panasonic UT50 with a new i1 Display Pro and HCFR software. I calibrated the Cinema picture mode with Warm color temp. I was wondering if each color temp can be calibrated or if Warm gets calibrated and each cooler temp (normal and cool) is based off that? Also, is each picture mode (Standard, Cinema, Custom) calibrated separate too? Or once 2 pt. white balance is done on a color temp each picture mode is just adjusting brightness, contrast, etc.?

I thought HCFR worked well, it's current version 3.0.4 is a little different than Kal's tutorial from a previous version but the majority was still spot on. Does anyone know if Calman 5 would be any more accurate than HCFR? I know the bug fixes mention corrected accuracy for i1 D3 sensor, but I didn't know if a retail software with full time developers would make a significant difference or not.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Last night I calibrated my Panasonic UT50 with a new i1 Display Pro and HCFR software. I calibrated the Cinema picture mode with Warm color temp. I was wondering if each color temp can be calibrated or if Warm gets calibrated and each cooler temp (normal and cool) is based off that? Also, is each picture mode (Standard, Cinema, Custom) calibrated separate too? Or once 2 pt. white balance is done on a color temp each picture mode is just adjusting brightness, contrast, etc.?
I thought HCFR worked well, it's current version 3.0.4 is a little different than Kal's tutorial from a previous version but the majority was still spot on. Does anyone know if Calman 5 would be any more accurate than HCFR? I know the bug fixes mention corrected accuracy for i1 D3 sensor, but I didn't know if a retail software with full time developers would make a significant difference or not.

The warm color temp space will affect warm 1 and warm 2 I believe and it carries over to all picture modes. But yes you could calibrate the other color modes bus since you are shooting for 6500k and minimum de errors the other modes will probably just require more tweaking.

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Old 10-12-2012, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Are there any preferred color temps for Normal and Cool? I think Normal would ideal for D65 and Cool and Warm would relative to that. With warm calibration I ran out of high end red but luckily just adjusting blue a little achieved ideal color balance. I'm not sure how I would go about tuning warm and cool. Is there a function to get the coordinates for non D65 color temps?
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Are there any preferred color temps for Normal and Cool? I think Normal would ideal for D65 and Cool and Warm would relative to that. With warm calibration I ran out of high end red but luckily just adjusting blue a little achieved ideal color balance. I'm not sure how I would go about tuning warm and cool. Is there a function to get the coordinates for non D65 color temps?

I think what you are experiencing is pretty common for a first time calibration, I remember reading about it here or in the calibration for dummies guide. Don't remember the fix tho. Perhaps someone can chime in and help you out. I have limited calibration experience myself but understand the basic concepts. Most Panasonic cals I have seen calibrate the warm color temp and use Warm 2.

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Old 10-12-2012, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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That's how I calibrated my TV last night. I followed Kal's slightly dated guide http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457 on HCFR and grayscale calibration. It's a great guide with good information. I feel I successfully calibrated my TV but wondered about doing other calibrations. Tonight I will do my Sony LCD. I really wonder how that will look. It's a BX300, so it's not even mid-range, so I look forward to seeing where default settings are and how it calibrates. I know despite it being a budget model it still has 2 pt. white balance adjustment control.

One question about reference black, when I use the AVS Rec 709 disc's basic brightness pattern, should bar 16 (labeled reference black) be set to I can see no color? I set the brightness until all dithering (plasma TV) disappeared and looked like the rest of the blacks, but I have to get right up to the TV to be able to tell.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

That's how I calibrated my TV last night. I followed Kal's slightly dated guide http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457 on HCFR and grayscale calibration. It's a great guide with good information. I feel I successfully calibrated my TV but wondered about doing other calibrations. Tonight I will do my Sony LCD. I really wonder how that will look. It's a BX300, so it's not even mid-range, so I look forward to seeing where default settings are and how it calibrates. I know despite it being a budget model it still has 2 pt. white balance adjustment control.
One question about reference black, when I use the AVS Rec 709 disc's basic brightness pattern, should bar 16 (labeled reference black) be set to I can see no color? I set the brightness until all dithering (plasma TV) disappeared and looked like the rest of the blacks, but I have to get right up to the TV to be able to tell.

My understanding is that you shouldnt be able to see bar 16 at all, what brightness setting did you end up with btw ?

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Old 10-12-2012, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are my current picture settings with my calibration.

Picture Mode : Cinema
Contrast : +84
Brightness : +46
Color : +47
Tint : -1
Sharpness: 0

Also, I didn't check color clipping, so when I run the RGB bar pattern, should I be able to see up to 240 flashing? Or is 235 ideal since that's where colors are supposed to stop?
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Here are my current picture settings with my calibration.
Picture Mode : Cinema
Contrast : +84
Brightness : +46
Color : +47
Tint : -1
Sharpness: 0
Also, I didn't check color clipping, so when I run the RGB bar pattern, should I be able to see up to 240 flashing? Or is 235 ideal since that's where colors are supposed to stop?

I believe you want to leave as much headroom above peak white as possible without clippling rgb.

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Old 10-12-2012, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Here are my current picture settings with my calibration.
Picture Mode : Cinema
Contrast : +84
Brightness : +46
Color : +47
Tint : -1
Sharpness: 0
Also, I didn't check color clipping, so when I run the RGB bar pattern, should I be able to see up to 240 flashing? Or is 235 ideal since that's where colors are supposed to stop?

It's suppose to go to 255. technically a DVD can only to 254, so 253 against 254 is going to be very hard to distinguish. typically 250 should be clearly visible.

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Old 10-12-2012, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Sotti, I just checked and I can see at least up to 251 on all three colors. I didn't look close enough to see if it's showing higher than that but it may. I think blue was the most difficult to see at 251.

Sotti, I know your signature says you're lead developer for Calman, but I'm wondering on your opinion between HCFR and Calman 5? The UT50 really only has 2 pt. white balance for more advanced picture adjustments, but do you think Calman 5 Home/Basic would take more accurate readings? I use an i1 Display Pro / 3 for my sensor, so I know it's fair but not spectro- accurate.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Thank you Sotti, I just checked and I can see at least up to 251 on all three colors. I didn't look close enough to see if it's showing higher than that but it may. I think blue was the most difficult to see at 251.
Sotti, I know your signature says you're lead developer for Calman, but I'm wondering on your opinion between HCFR and Calman 5? The UT50 really only has 2 pt. white balance for more advanced picture adjustments, but do you think Calman 5 Home/Basic would take more accurate readings? I use an i1 Display Pro / 3 for my sensor, so I know it's fair but not spectro- accurate.

We can help you visualize the data better, but the data is going to be nearly identical. We do have some options for meters like the Low Light Handler that can give you longer exposures for darker readings.

I used HCFR before I was hired by SpectraCal and it's a very functional little program, but it's options for setting up the charts you want to see is extremely limited compared to what can be done in CalMAN, sometimes this can help you make better decisions about your calibration. But a great calibrator can get basically the same results with CalMAN, HCFR, or an x,y,Y read out.

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Old 10-12-2012, 05:11 PM
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Results should be very similar. I've only used HCFR, but it seems to be more to the point compared to CalMAN. CalMAN seems much more user-friendly and will guide you through things, on top of what sotti said above.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Results should be very similar. I've only used HCFR, but it seems to be more to the point compared to CalMAN. CalMAN seems much more user-friendly and will guide you through things, on top of what sotti said above.

With CalMAN 5 it all depends on what workflow you use. The Basic and Tutorial workflows are designed to offer lots of help, information and hand holding and just the right amount of information without having to have a degree in color science. The Quick Analysis workflow is just that, a few pages with lots of information broken down by type: grayscale/gamma, gamut, saturation, color checker, spectral. The user determines their experience with CalMAN 5 by just selecting the appropriate workflow on startup.

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Old 10-12-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

With CalMAN 5 it all depends on what workflow you use. The Basic and Tutorial workflows are designed to offer lots of help, information and hand holding and just the right amount of information without having to have a degree in color science. The Quick Analysis workflow is just that, a few pages with lots of information broken down by type: grayscale/gamma, gamut, saturation, color checker, spectral. The user determines their experience with CalMAN 5 by just selecting the appropriate workflow on startup.
Thanks for the clarification. That's great for both people starting out and experienced calibrators. HCFR isn't the greatest option for people just starting out, IMO, but it's a good free little program.
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback on Calman. biggrin.gif
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I watched Little Shop of Horrors on blu ray last night and I thought I was getting black crush on Mr. Mushnik's suit, but I looked at the test patterns and all looks well. I updated firmware today and I think it may have affected my picture but I'm not sure. It seems like trying to get repeat graphs is impossible. I tried tweaking some settings and the graphs looked worse, so I reset my settings and the looked way off from before. I consistently get a peak ate 60 IRE, is it possible to even that out? Is there a good way of balancing settings between 60 and 70 IRE? Is it best to use 65 IRE or right down the difference in WB values and average them? When I get a chance I will try custom mode but I've heard cinema mode offers the best gamma function.

When I followed Kal's instructions to set red to 21% of 100 IRE I get a lower color setting, 47, but I did different readings and saw that at 50 the primaries are closest to the CIE triangle. One last question, in my service menu for white balance, what do All-Cut and All-Drive do for adjusting the picture? Does that affect max black and white levels?
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

I watched Little Shop of Horrors on blu ray last night and I thought I was getting black crush on Mr. Mushnik's suit, but I looked at the test patterns and all looks well. I updated firmware today and I think it may have affected my picture but I'm not sure. It seems like trying to get repeat graphs is impossible. I tried tweaking some settings and the graphs looked worse, so I reset my settings and the looked way off from before. I consistently get a peak ate 60 IRE, is it possible to even that out? Is there a good way of balancing settings between 60 and 70 IRE? Is it best to use 65 IRE or right down the difference in WB values and average them? When I get a chance I will try custom mode but I've heard cinema mode offers the best gamma function.
When I followed Kal's instructions to set red to 21% of 100 IRE I get a lower color setting, 47, but I did different readings and saw that at 50 the primaries are closest to the CIE triangle. One last question, in my service menu for white balance, what do All-Cut and All-Drive do for adjusting the picture? Does that affect max black and white levels?

If gamma is too dark, near blacks will crush even if a black clipping pattern or PLUGE shows no black crush. Too high gamma compresses the low end to the point different shades of very dark grey starting blending together and all look the same. The native on/off contrast ratio will determine at what gamma value this starts occurring (the more CR, the harder it is to crush near blacks together).
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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On my UT50 my gamma average is about 2.16, it's just a little bit above halfway between 2.1 and 2.2. Also on the UT50 there is no gamma control other than picture mode. I think I may order a license of SpectraCal but I will call them first to understand the differences between license levels and why I might want a higher level even though my TV has limited functionality for tuning the picture. I saw that enthusiast comes with 1 PC client, but what does that mean? Does that mean I can calibrate my PC LCD monitor but only on one PC? All these terms are new to me so that's why I want to call them and find out what's right for me. I still have to finally decide if SpectraCal will help me perfect my calibration over HCFR, if it's even possible.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

On my UT50 my gamma average is about 2.16, it's just a little bit above halfway between 2.1 and 2.2. Also on the UT50 there is no gamma control other than picture mode. I think I may order a license of SpectraCal but I will call them first to understand the differences between license levels and why I might want a higher level even though my TV has limited functionality for tuning the picture. I saw that enthusiast comes with 1 PC client, but what does that mean? Does that mean I can calibrate my PC LCD monitor but only on one PC? All these terms are new to me so that's why I want to call them and find out what's right for me. I still have to finally decide if SpectraCal will help me perfect my calibration over HCFR, if it's even possible.

sounds like gamma is not the issue here, since it's only 2.16 and the UT50 has a very high contrast ratio
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

On my UT50 my gamma average is about 2.16, it's just a little bit above halfway between 2.1 and 2.2. Also on the UT50 there is no gamma control other than picture mode. I think I may order a license of SpectraCal but I will call them first to understand the differences between license levels and why I might want a higher level even though my TV has limited functionality for tuning the picture. I saw that enthusiast comes with 1 PC client, but what does that mean? Does that mean I can calibrate my PC LCD monitor but only on one PC? All these terms are new to me so that's why I want to call them and find out what's right for me. I still have to finally decide if SpectraCal will help me perfect my calibration over HCFR, if it's even possible.

I dont have HFCR experience but highly recommend Calman, I had the version 4 diy and was upgraded a license level in 5.

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Old 10-15-2012, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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What level license are you using? Plasma really recommends Control or Enthusiast. I want to make sure that the added functionality will benefit me.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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When trying to decide which IRE range to have best white balance, which range in the most important? 30-70 IRE? Also, if 30 IRE is spot on at .313, .329 and 20 IRE is close, is it a good idea to calibrate 25 IRE then to average between the two IRE levels?
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:34 PM
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Seems like most people use 80/30 or 80/20. Whatever you use, IMO, you should only use those as starting points. You should really check the entire grayscale to get the lowest average dE.
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's what I have now for calibration:

20121015xyY.jpg

20121015Luma.jpg

20121015Gamma.jpg

20121015RGBLevels.jpg

20121015ColorTemp.jpg

20121015CIE.jpg



I'm not sure if this can get much better, but so far I think it looks pretty good.
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:57 PM
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What happens if you increase the Color control setting? Will that move green and red "farther out" (increase their saturation). I've only seen one video display (a DLP projector with a poorly chosen green filter) that can't oversaturate green (allowing you to correct it with either the Color control or CMS controls. Having green displaced towards yellow as it is in that graph should be visible... tipping all shades of green a bit towards yellow. Your green is undersaturated in that it can't get far enough away from red to be accurate. If there is a "red" control in the CMS controls for Green, it should be reduced, if it can be reduced (sometimes they can't). If you have no CMS controls (not familiar with your model and haven't followed every post), the only control you have over Saturation is the Color control (if it adjust saturation, some Color controls affect luminance more than saturation). Keep in mind that errors in green are the most visible errors and are the ones you most want to avoid. Yellow, cyan, and red errors are next easiest to see, magenta errors are next, and blue errors are hardest to see.

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Old 10-16-2012, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

What happens if you increase the Color control setting? Will that move green and red "farther out" (increase their saturation). I've only seen one video display (a DLP projector with a poorly chosen green filter) that can't oversaturate green (allowing you to correct it with either the Color control or CMS controls. Having green displaced towards yellow as it is in that graph should be visible... tipping all shades of green a bit towards yellow. Your green is undersaturated in that it can't get far enough away from red to be accurate. If there is a "red" control in the CMS controls for Green, it should be reduced, if it can be reduced (sometimes they can't). If you have no CMS controls (not familiar with your model and haven't followed every post), the only control you have over Saturation is the Color control (if it adjust saturation, some Color controls affect luminance more than saturation). Keep in mind that errors in green are the most visible errors and are the ones you most want to avoid. Yellow, cyan, and red errors are next easiest to see, magenta errors are next, and blue errors are hardest to see.

A few comments:

The TV in question only has Color/Tint, no CMS controls.

Most Color controls affect luminance primarily, so little change is made to saturation unless you drive the control way up from the current setting (and doing so will make all colors way too bright). At least that has been my experience with every Plasma/LCD flat-panel I've ever owned/calibrated.

Looking at the datagrid in the post above, there is significant red push with the current Color setting. Red is about 11% too bright, which IMO should be fixed by turning down the Color control until the luma error is minimized.


Regarding the bit about green errors being more visible than others, if you use dE2000 or deltaL (like in CalMAN 5), won't that show all color errors equally in terms of perception? As opposed to looking at gamut luminance as % errors or using older dE formulas?
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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No, I don't have CMS control, just Color and Tint. When I did some tests between color values of 46, 48, 50, and 52 red and green seemed to shift a little, blue almost stayed exactly in the same spot. I know I'm not supposed to change color and tint more than a couple of ticks, according to all the tutorials I've read.
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

No, I don't have CMS control, just Color and Tint. When I did some tests between color values of 46, 48, 50, and 52 red and green seemed to shift a little, blue almost stayed exactly in the same spot. I know I'm not supposed to change color and tint more than a couple of ticks, according to all the tutorials I've read.

all your colors are too bright in post #24; minimize the red luma error for the best fleshtones (or minimize overall color luma error)
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's what I had with Color at 46, the chart above is at 50, but this was a slightly different white balance calibration.

PriSec_46.jpg

Delta-E values are higher but Delta-Luma is less, although blue looks about spot on.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Here's what I had with Color at 46, the chart above is at 50, but this was a slightly different white balance calibration.
PriSec_46.jpg
Delta-E values are higher but Delta-Luma is less, although blue looks about spot on.

the dE formula HCFR uses is outdated and wrong for gamut measurements (you really want to use dE2000 or at least dE1994)... Color at 46 does produce much smaller delta luma errors but a few clicks lower could get things near the 0% mark, which is ideal
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