LightSpace CMS Now Supports Lumagen + eeColor 3D-LUT 4 All - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 12:40 AM - Thread Starter
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ArgyllCMS uses unofficial drivers to handle the various meters it supports, you need to remove your official ones and install Argyll's ones.

The problem is that if you install ArgyllCMS drivers, you can't operate your meters again with LS/CM/CP or X-Rite Software, you need to re-install / install / re-install drivers again and again in daily routing in case you want to swap from ArgyllCMS to LS/CM/CP etc. everytime.

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post #452 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

ArgyllCMS uses unofficial drivers to handle the various meters it supports, you need to remove your official ones and install Argyll's ones.
.

This statement is not true for I1D3 Probe wich is a HID Device.
As a regular user of LS HCL + Tedd's Disk I move easily from LS to HCFR and Vice-Versa.
I am very disappointed by the form which takes this thread polluted by empty quarrels.
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post #453 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerlucun View Post

This statement is not true for I1D3 Probe wich is a HID Device.
As a regular user of LS HCL + Tedd's Disk I move easily from LS to HCFR and Vice-Versa.
I am very disappointed by the form which takes this thread polluted by empty quarrels.

Ted's statement is absolutely correct for some meters, such as the i1Pro.

The driver for the i1D3 you're using was "reverse engineered" by Gill, it is not the official driver. Whether that affects accuracy within Argyll is unknown, only X-Rite would know, or maybe any of the sw parties that use offical drivers such as LS, CP and CM.

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
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meter: Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
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post #454 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 01:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerlucun View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

ArgyllCMS uses unofficial drivers to handle the various meters it supports, you need to remove your official ones and install Argyll's ones.
.

This statement is not true for I1D3 Probe wich is a HID Device.
As a regular user of LS HCL + Tedd's Disk I move easily from LS to HCFR and Vice-Versa.
I am very disappointed by the form which takes this thread polluted by empty quarrels.
Hello, I'm talking for ArgyllCMS Application ,not HCFR, a simple example about this is the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeCZ View Post

Hi Zoyd,

I would like to ask if the latest version is fully compatible with ColorMunki Photo (Spectro) to calibrate the projectors. And is there anything special what I have to do? (I read the wiki, but I do not fully understand)...

Thank you and sorry for my english

George

Hi George,

yes, fully compatible. After installation you must remove the Xrite driver if it's installed. Then install the driver for the spectrometer from the Drivers folder.

The text below is coming from ArgyllCMS Documentation:

''If you currently have applications other than Argyll accessing your USB connected instrument, then you will have to manually install the Argyll driver, and then switch back and forth between the Argyll and other drivers if you want to switch between applications.''

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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post #455 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

Ted's statement is absolutely correct for some meters, such as the i1Pro.

Exact for some meters not for all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

The driver for the i1D3 you're using was "reverse engineered" by Gill, it is not the official driver. Whether that affects accuracy within Argyll is unknown, only X-Rite would know, or maybe any of the sw parties that use offical drivers such as LS, CP and CM.


It's a pity to read such a sentence, It makes lose any credibility in your interventions.
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post #456 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerlucun View Post

Exact for some meters not for all.
It's a pity to read such a sentence, It makes lose any credibility in your interventions.

can you point me to a document that displays the performance and accuracy of these custom drivers vs. the official drivers ? As I stated, to me their accuracy is unknown, that does not mean they are inaccurate. But clearly, when you want color critical results you want to eliminate any possible source of error or contamination. I guess that is why LS, CM and CP paid top dollars to use the official drivers and did not "reverse engineer" them. But then gain, those are Pro solutions.

U're demonstrated blind faith makes me hope that u get great results with Argyll !

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
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post #457 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

ArgyllCMS uses unofficial drivers to handle the various meters it supports, you need to remove your official ones and install Argyll's ones.
Yes, ArgyllCMS uses official ArgyllCMS drivers.
Quote:
The problem is that if you install ArgyllCMS drivers, you can't operate your meters again with LS/CM/CP or X-Rite Software, you need to re-install / install / re-install drivers again and again in daily routing in case you want to swap from ArgyllCMS to LS/CM/CP etc. everytime.
Yes, it is slightly painful - takes about 10 seconds or so to swap one for the other. Blame Microsoft for not anticipating that there may be more than one system driver for a particular USB device. This problem doesn't occur on OS X or Linux though.

It also doesn't apply to HID devices like the i1 display pro.

As some compensation you get instrument modes not available using the OEM drivers.

[ If this really bugs anyone, I'm happy to create a utility to make this switch more automatic. ]
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post #458 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerlucun View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

The driver for the i1D3 you're using was "reverse engineered" by Gill, it is not the official driver. Whether that affects accuracy within Argyll is unknown, only X-Rite would know, or maybe any of the sw parties that use offical drivers such as LS, CP and CM.

Quote from http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/Details/Discus_v_i1D3.html:

"ArgyllCMS supports the i1Display Pro, albeit using a reverse-engineered driver. In spot testing against the official X-Rite driver, we did not measure any obvious errors in Argyll's implementation. Monitor profiles made with Argyll were very good, of at least comparable quality to i1Profiler, although it takes a large number of patches (2000 is a good start) and a long time to measure."

As always, if you find a measurable discrepancy between the OEM instrument drivers and the ArgyllCMS drivers, I'm interested in figuring out why.
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post #460 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post

takes about 10 seconds or so to swap one for the other.

Some Pro's where they are using their notebooks only for calibration work, I believe this difference in drivers will propably make them to stay away from your software to prevent any confict with their official drivers, I'm not telling that your drivers are problematic or may introduce problems but it's the first thing It came to my mind when I downloaded and I was ready to install ArgyllCMS to my system.

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post #461 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post

takes about 10 seconds or so to swap one for the other.

Some Pro's where they are using their notebooks only for calibration work, I believe this difference in drivers will propably make them to stay away from your software to prevent any confict with their official drivers, I'm not telling that your drivers are problematic or may introduce problems but it's the first thing It came to my mind when I downloaded and I was ready to install ArgyllCMS to my system.

[ There is no "conflict" - they are exclusive, meaning that you can use one set of drivers or the other but not both. They can't "fight" over an instrument ]

I would have though that the pro's would be least worried - they are generally more technically savvy that the average computer user.

I have the exact same drivers on all platforms, and there are no OEM drivers for Linux. To mix and match would be harder to maintain, and would mean an inconsistent set of features between the platforms.
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post #462 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 06:31 AM
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Hi Kerlucun:

Re: "I am a regular user of LS ..."

Lets shift gears back to what this thread is all about ... what are the features of Light Space and how to use Light Space.

Very good, a Light Space user! I have a lot of experience with Light Space, especially with projectors. So I can get to know you better and share thoughts on what works best with Light Space, pls look at the following questions and observations I've made based on my experience in doing hundreds of Light Space LUT calibrations. If any of the "silent readers" want to know more about Light Space too, please post and let us know which topics mentioned below you would like to know more about. I'm not a math guy, just a user like everyone else.

1. What version of Light Space did you buy and what meters do you use? Do you do any meter profiling? I use a PR-670 and a Klein K10A with Light Space.
2. What do you think about the 3D modeling tools in Light Space? Would you like to understand how to better interprete the 3D rotatable cube to see how Light Space is making changes in calibrating millions of colors? I can share information of how to look at the Calibration LUT and Verification LUT. I have found that Light Space is the only software to have real 3D LUT tools that shows where the color correction is going on in 3D LUT rotatable cube. There is a 3D rotatable cube that you control with a mouse. One can rotate the LUT cube to any angle in 3D, shift the cube side to side or zoom in or out to look at various color regions in side the 3D LUT. As you know, it even shows you where the grey line is and the effects on grey colors particularly in the shadows due to the effects of the calibration, the technology of the projector or display and special filters you can use to remove discoloration along the grey line in the shadows. If you are into "the blackest shadows" like I am, this tool is very cool for eliminating the shadow green hues which have an effect of lifting blacks. Very easy to see on a projector screen.
3. That being said, have you used the Light Space filters yet to correct for any discoloration in the shadows? What are your favorite filters to use? These filters are quite ingenious tools to use. They can make near surgical changes to the grey color line in 3D to remove shadow discolorations of gray (like green, red or blue hues) and limit the effects to near by non-grey desaturated colors. They do this through the blend and radius controls in the appropriate filters. Steve Shaw is the master in the use of these controls and I've learn quite a lot from him ... I can share some of thoughts of using Light Space filters, if you like.
4. Are you a projector owner, by any chance? I love to compare 3D LUT calibration techniques with you. I have a lot of experience there ... especially with Espon projectors. If you own a JVC projector, I have a Light Space friend Harry who can share tons of information of how to use Light Space to accurately calibrate JVC projectors.
5. If not a projector owner, do you have a plasma or LCD TV? Which one? Buzzard767, ConnecTEDDD, Iron Mike and Nudgiator have uuuuber experience with plasmas. I'm sure they would like to share and compare notes with you as well. I have lots of experience with Sony LCD/LED TVs. I can share and compare notes with you, too. Yum, Yum.
6. Have you tried to use Photoshop yet to modify the colors of your Light Space generated Calibration LUT? This is a post calibration technique to make the picture look more pleasing to the eye. You can actually see the changes going on in the LUT in real-time as you use and change the various color and brightness/lift controls in Photoshop. This is really a uuuuber cool feature of Light Space. You do this by inserting a well known picture, like a screen grab, into the Light Space "Color Bar View" of your Calibration LUT. This will be your color control picture. You can save the "LUT Image" as a .tif file then import it into Photoshop. It sounds awesome and it really is awesome. Far beyone anything that is offered on the market today. I have actually used these tools to make individual blu ray movies look better ... for example, the movie Prometheus. I can say truthfully, that my Epson Projector looks nearly as good as a much more expensive projector by lifting specific dark image detail without altering any other colors in the blu ray movie. Any LUT is capable of doing this. I have found only Light Space has true 3D LUT tools that can do this with measured control ... see "3." above and the use of blend and radius controls. I purchased Light Space solely based on the existence of these tools. I could not find any other commercial LUT software calibration package for Home Cinema that offered this. That's why I'm diving in so deep with Light Space. It's like discovering a whole new world that you never thought existed. Do you get this feeling too?
7. Have you tried to optimize your projector or TV's linearity yet? This is important so one can optimize the balance between the time is takes to do a calibration LUT and achieving an accurate calibration LUT. If you are doing linearity, what is your workflow for doing this? If you do not understand this, I can tell you how I did a linear analysis of my Epson projector. It fairly simple, but does take time because one has to test the effect each projector or display control has on linearity. I've taken the ISF and THX classes, and they do not teach you this. Only by using Light Space and verifying my LUT for accuracy did I come to appreciate how important this step was. Linearity analysis is one of the steps performed in pre-calibration work flow, as you know. I can explain it to you in my own words, if you like ... user to user. wink.gif
8. I just bought a Penta Grade 1 broadcast monitor. So I'll have some views of how to calibrate a post production Pro monitor my company uses, if you are interested, but you'll have to wait until March or so, til I figure it out. looool.
9. Using Light Space is like waking up one day and realizing there is a whole new undiscovered country (Star Trek loool) out there waiting to be explored. I and other Light Space Users have generated tons of new ideas for future Light Space LUT calibration and modification features. The more one dives into the use of Light Space, the more ideas for additional functionality one comes up with. We all feel the sky is the limit for LUT calibration with Light Space.

Wrap Up: Please ask questions, and get a good discussion going of how to use Light Space and what the features do. The battle is over, we protected our thread. The past is the past and we are all friends again. Based on my experience, Light Space truly is riding the wave to the future. Some day I'll share where I think the future of calibration is going. It's exhilarating just thinking about it.

Kind Regards,

JJ
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post #463 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerlucun View Post

As a regular user of LS HCL + Tedd's Disk I move easily from LS to HCFR and Vice-Versa.

Hello, Have you bought the Digital Download or Disk Copy of my project?

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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post

Lets shift gears back to what this thread is all about ... what are the features of Light Space and how to use Light Space.

Very good, a Light Space user! I have a lot of experience with Light Space, especially with projectors. So I can get to know you better and share thoughts on what works best with Light Space, pls look at the following questions and observations I've made based on my experience in doing hundreds of Light Space LUT calibrations. If any of the "silent readers" want to know more about Light Space too, please post let us know which topics mentioned below you would like to know more about. I'm not a math guy, just a user like everyone else....

Kind Regards,

JJ
wink.gif

Hey Carbon Ft Print,

thanks a lot for this great post, and at long last it's thread related. I was hoping some one is making such an offer, as I'm willing to learn much more about LS after the first impressions I got.
Purchased LS HCL some weeks ago and used it with TED disc (10pt hybrid mode). Ted really gave me great support and walked me through the basics to get my first calibration managed with really astonishing results.
Using a I1D3 meter for now, later on I will get a I1Pro2 for profiling (with the help of DPS).
Also own a Radiance Mini but will go for eeColor, when the $$$ will be available rolleyes.gif

Actually I got a new 65VT60 plasma which is in the break-in period now, as my old VT50 (EU model) lacks of controls and gamut was too small (only 89%)
So far I only used the relax filter but could clearly see the improvement in the 3D cube.

My next goals are:
- learn more how to interprete the 3D Cube
- based on the profiles learn which filters to use and how to apply them correctly, especially how to remove some slight discolorisation in the dark greys (17-24), changing gamma at particular points (but maybe gamma will be no issue with the VT60)
- improving linearity on the display. With my old TV it was not that complicated, at least I think so. By changing only one variable, and running QPs, see the outcome, it was quite easy to find a setup with good RGB separation, greyscale and gamma racking. I tried to use as less controls (with low changings) as possible. If this what You mean with linearity?

Questions will come up soon when I get the hands on my new TV. For now, thanks a lot in advance making such a great offer, that I'm pleased to adopt.
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post #465 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Hey Carbon Ft Print,

thanks a lot for this great post, and at long last it's thread related. I was hoping some one is making such an offer, as I'm willing to learn much more about LS after the first impressions I got.
Purchased LS HCL some weeks ago and used it with TED disc (10pt hybrid mode). Ted really gave me great support and walked me through the basics to get my fist calibration managed with really astonishing results.
Using a I1D3 meter for now, later on I will get a I1Pro2 for profiling (with the help of DPS).
Also own a Radiance Mini but will go for eeColor, when the $$$ will be available rolleyes.gif

Actually I got a new 65VT60 plasma which is in the break-in period now, as my old VT50 (EU model) lacks of controls and gamut was too small (only 89%)
So far I only used the relax filter but could clearly see the improvement in the 3D cube.

My next goals are:
- learn more how to interprete the 3D Cube
- based on the profiles learn which filters to use and how to apply them correctly, especially how to remove some slight discolorisation in the dark greys (17-24), changing gamma at particular points (but maybe gamma will be no issue with the VT60)
- improving linearity on the display. With my old TV it was not that complicated, at least I think so. By changing only one variable, and running QPs, see the outcome, it was quite easy to find a setup with good RGB separation, greyscale and gamma racking. I tried to use as less controls (with low changings) as possible. If this what You mean with linearity?

Questions will come up soon when I get the hands on my new TV. For now, thanks a lot in advance making such a great offer, that I'm pleased to adopt.

Hi DrFaxe:

Plasma Nirvana with Light Space! Yeah! Buzz, Ted, Mike and the Nudgiator all have a lot experience with Plasmas. TED has a Kuro! I've listened to these guys providing all sorts of data feedback to Steve Shaw in the past to tweak Light Space performance for plasmas. All good for Plasma owners. As you noted, TED has an excellent Cal Disk for Light Space at http://displaycalibrations.com/. He working on new feature upgrades to his disk all the time. I'm using it.

The linearity workflow is exactly as you suggested. Here's a good example. In my Epson Projector, the default linearity is shown in diagram 1. This is a best as I could do. Ideally, the RGB lines will ride nearly on top of the black line. This would typical of pro monitors and projectors. When I go to tweak white by using negative gain to zero in on the D65 white point, it goes horribly wrong as shown in Figure 2. This forces me to use as much positive offset as possible (positive offset helps linearity) and as little negative gain (negative gain destroys linearity) as possible when I calibrate the Epson 6020 Projector. You are right, that's linearity analysis ... it teaches you what controls help, which are relatively neutral and which controls to definitely stay away from or use as little a possible if one is forced to use them. I only learned and appreciated the significance of linearity through the use of Light Space and with Steve Shaw's and TED's help. wink.gif

Kind Regards,

JJ


Diagram 1. Epson 6020 Projector "Default" Linearity ... controls zero'd or at default


Diagram 2. Epson 6020 Projector adding Negative Gain ... destroys linearity.
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post #466 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 10:58 AM
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Hello, Have you bought the Digital Download or Disk Copy of my project?

I bought the Digital Download butI have not yet burn it as I must drive some miles to a friend who own a BD writer.
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post #467 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 11:28 AM
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Hey Carbon Ft Print,

Thank you for your proposals, as English is not my mother tongue I have difficulty writing long texts.
I am thus going to make short and I would complete afterward.
I boughts the Light version which I use with a probe Xrite I1D3 and which I profite by means of a xRite ColorMunki Photo (Spectro).
I calibrate my JVC X3 and also the JVC X95 of a friend.
To benefit from a maximum of light I measure facing the projector, filter in position, the reference probe is directed to the screen.
As I don't have a EecolorBox I load the 3DLUT in a Lumagen XD (5*5*5).
The results are very encouraging but I still have many difficulties to manage measurements in low light.
The correction is too important and I need to change the gray scale in the Lumagen.
This phenomenon also occurs if I measure facing the screen or even with my Sony TV.
I would like to get a better direct result before using the complementary functions of LS.
I am taker all good ideas.

Regards.
Jean-Jacques
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post #468 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 01:56 PM
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Hi Carbon Ft Print,

thanks for the reply and sharing the results.

Here is my old VT50 at default (not that bad)




and after some minor tweaks (just added blue)



best regards
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post #469 of 728 Old 12-12-2013, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerlucun View Post

Hey Carbon Ft Print,

Thank you for your proposals, as English is not my mother tongue I have difficulty writing long texts.
I am thus going to make short and I would complete afterward.
I boughts the Light version which I use with a probe Xrite I1D3 and which I profite by means of a xRite ColorMunki Photo (Spectro).
I calibrate my JVC X3 and also the JVC X95 of a friend.
To benefit from a maximum of light I measure facing the projector, filter in position, the reference probe is directed to the screen.
As I don't have a EecolorBox I load the 3DLUT in a Lumagen XD (5*5*5).
The results are very encouraging but I still have many difficulties to manage measurements in low light.
The correction is too important and I need to change the gray scale in the Lumagen.
This phenomenon also occurs if I measure facing the screen or even with my Sony TV.
I would like to get a better direct result before using the complementary functions of LS.
I am taker all good ideas.

Regards.
Jean-Jacques

Hi Kerlucun:

Thanks for your post. I understand your having difficulties setting D65 at low light levels. Could you take picture grabs of LS gamut, gamma, color separation, color balance and dEs and post them?

Picture Grabs: My PC uses microsoft windows. I use Microsoft Picture Manger which comes free with windows for picture grabs (print screen). For picture grabs, I place the cursor over the window I want to take a picture grab of and press and hold the alt button then click the print screen button. Use the picture upload cmd in the avsforum editor to up load your picture grabs.

Kind Regards,

JJ
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Hi Carbon Ft Print,

thanks for the reply and sharing the results.

Here is my old VT50 at default (not that bad)




and after some minor tweaks (just added blue)



best regards

Hi DrFaxe:

Sweeeet! Love your results. Never owned one which is unfortunate. I'm also seeking deep blacks but, with projectors, so we have something in common. wink.gif


Kind Regards,

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Hi Jean-Jacques

indeed, a JVC low light calibration is not easy because of the really good "blacks".

I have a X75, Radiance XS3D + some probes. Before I got the K10A I run into same situation; calibrating below 15 IRE was critical.

In my last days when using the i1D3, I've done measurements with PJ zoom set at minimum. Many hobby calibrators with low-priced probe equipment do that this way ( -> more brightness for the critical low measureing range).

For best results I've created 2 probe profiles ( ->LightSpace "Probe Options"): First profile was made when zoom was in normal position, probe = i1Pro2, the second was done at zoom minimum, probe = i1D3.

Hence for all measurements in zoom min position, these are my Radiance/LightSpace settings:
Radiance = pattern source, medium patches.
Display Characterization: 17-side, closed loop, hybrid 1D + 3D
Probe Options:
"Active Probe" = profile of "zoom min" (= i1D3)
"Reference Probe" = profile of "zoom normal" (= i1Pro2)
Integration Time = 2s (in case of 24fps)
Extra Delay Time = 0,25s (needed for Radiance when set at medium patches !!!)
ALLM = Off

Final LUT for the Radiance (5^3): Rec709, G2.25

This way I got no significant CCT driftings compared with zoom at normal, and grayscale was fine down to ~5 IRE (108" screen , 16:9, distance screen/PJ = 4m)

Speaking for the X75/X95 you have some more options:

a) Set the JVC custom gamma at 2.4. Lift the shadows using the remote control: While displaying a "Near Black" grayscale test pattern (I recommend "Black Level" on TED's super disc) set "Dark Level White" at +2 ... +3, check the dark grayscale bars and if the X95 also have a perceivable red color shifting in that low levels (as with my X75), set "Dark Level Red" = -1 ... -2. That pre-setting is good for the critical low end measurements and after the Display Characterization you can use the "Relax" filter, if the i1D3 readings from the shadows are still not reliable but OK when checked by eye.

b) Using the JVC Projector Calibration SW. That needs a Spyder 3 or 4 ("Pro"/"Elite", not "Express") probe (~120 EUR). Last days I've done some experiments with my X75 and got great grayscale results down to HDMI Y 18! For autocal with that JVC SW the Spyder is facing the PJ (zoom normal) and when completed, make the 17^3 display characterization using LightSpace as I wrote before (zoom min).

Btw - with the JVC SW you can also define any color space (normal + wide gamut), of course only within supported native CS (for using that feature a Spyder isn't needed).

smile.gif
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Hi Harry,
Could You please provide some more informations about that PJ's zoom set? Is it some kind of lense which is placed in front of the probe to catch more light. Please clearify.
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Hi Harry,
Could You please provide some more informations about that PJ's zoom set? Is it some kind of lense which is placed in front of the probe to catch more light. Please clearify.

Hi DrFaxe:

I believe Harry is talking about the zoom lens on the JVC projector. Depending on the distance the between the projector and screen and the aspect ratio and size of screen, sometimes you have to make minor zoom adjustments to fill the screen completely. The projectors also have lens vertical and horizontal adjustments for easy installs. I believe what Harry is pointing out is any time you "adjust" the lens in anyway, it may have an effect on achieving D65 at low light levels ... just like it may with linearity ... which I'm going to check out with my Epson projector. Thanks Harry for that point. Harry likes to compare the min vs normal position when he is tweaking the result of his calibration. Harry is into Light Space and tweaking JVC projectors big time. Harry and I talk about our projectors often. Projector nirvana. loooool

Kind Regards,

JJ;)
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Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Actually I got a new 65VT60 plasma which is in the break-in period now, as my old VT50 (EU model) lacks of controls and gamut was too small (only 89%)
So far I only used the relax filter but could clearly see the improvement in the 3D cube.

Very nice news, send us the first LightSpace Quck Profiling Report once you will be ready for measurements, after the break-in period wink.gif

We will guide you from here. wink.gif

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Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post

Hi DrFaxe:

I believe Harry is talking about the zoom lens on the JVC projector. Depending on the distance the between the projector and screen and the aspect ratio and size of screen, sometimes you have to make minor zoom adjustments to fill the screen completely. The projectors also have lens vertical and horizontal adjustments for easy installs. I believe what Harry is pointing out is any time you "adjust" the lens in anyway, it may have an effect on achieving D65 at low light levels ... just like it may with linearity ... which I'm going to check out with my Epson projector. Thanks Harry for that point. Harry likes to compare the min vs normal position when he is tweaking the result of his calibration. Harry is into Light Space and tweaking JVC projectors big time. Harry and I talk about our projectors often. Projector nirvana. loooool

Kind Regards,

JJ;)

Thank's JJ for explaining in addition. Indeed I meant the zoom lens for filling the screen size with the picture, not the lens shift.

smile.gif

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post


it also depends on the settings and mode You're using. As a LS HCL customer + TEDs disc I use DIP mode with meter integration time of 1.04s (DIP time 4s). With this settings the probe can not read the mll of my display, but it accurate enough for stimulus levels >10% (maybe 5% too). To get the meter reading the mll correctly I have to use integration time of 6s but than I will loose the speed advantage completely.
So for this particular case it would make sense to enter the black level manually, without guess work.

And regarding gamma, I can not understand why You all stick on 2.2. The main reason I purchased LS was to calculate several targets without running a calibration over and over again, so I have 4 different gamma targets in my Radiance and just use a gamma setting the movie looks best to me (most times 2.25 or 2.3). rolleyes.gif

Hi again DrFaxe:

Re: "And regarding gamma, I can not understand why You all stick on 2.2. The main reason I purchased LS was to calculate several targets without running a calibration over and over again, so I have 4 different gamma targets in my Radiance and just use a gamma setting the movie looks best to me (most times 2.25 or 2.3)."

Nice way to use LS. It takes seconds to generate another Calibration LUT with a different gamma in Light Space. Mathematics does matter. wink.gif

How do you set gamma on your TV? With the Epson 6020 projector, I have to set gamma to 2.4 (the highest setting) just to get the pre-calibration mid range gray scale dE's (D65 Color Temperature) to their lowest values. I would go to 2.5 or 2.6 if that were an option, but its not in Cinema mode with the Epson. Epson's cinema mode has the widest native gamut of all the picture pre-sets (dynamic, living room, THX, cinema, ... ect.). It's really large compared to rec709. looool.

Also, what does the 1DLUT view look like of your Calibration LUT (CLUT) for your VT50? It should ideally be a straight 45 degree black line from White (upper right hand corner) to Black (lower left hand corner). If the line wiggles above or below this ideal line, then there is too much or to little luminance when doing pre-calibration workflow. This can be tweaked with appropriate gain and bias controls in pre-calibration workflow. My experience is with projectors, not plasmas. TED is a good source for this information for plasmas. This is important for shadow, mid range and highlight image detail for Blu Ray movies.

Kind Regards,

JJ;)
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Nice way to use LS. It takes seconds to generate another Calibration LUT with a different gamma in Light Space. Mathematics does matter. wink.gif

Hi JJ,

on gamma, as You said, it just takes seconds to generate new LUTs with different gamma target, so why not use it.
As per Doug Blackburns suggestions, 2.25 is a really sweet spot for nearly all movies.
The Hatfields & McCoys trilogy is a perfect example for not using 2.2 gamma. It all looks washed out very much, and 2.3 was perfect.
Personally I see no benefit to target a gamma which is industry standard (2.2), but don't like the picture.
And there were never issues with crushed blacks on higher gamma settings. MLL of the VT50 was 0.008 cd/m² and the new VT60 has 0.002 cd/m² out of the box, but I don't know if I can trust this, as such low Y is clearly very close to the probe capabilities. (Tom Huffman says 0.003, Spectracal 0.002 for I1D3/C6 meter)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post

How do you set gamma on your TV?

on my VT50 EU the only usable mode was THX cinema, but with a great lack of controls. It only had color, contrast and brightness setting, for WB I had to use cuts and drives in the service menu, gamma toggled between 2.2 and 2.25.
But this doesn't matter any more, because VT50 is history and my new VT60 is pretty much the same as the US models, with all controls needed available.
I have to do some research which settings to use and which better not. As per Steve's suggestion in the LS forum I tend to use 2pt WB only, as the 10pt WB is working against the LUT.
But gamma is not nice, so I tend to smooth it using the 10pt controls (luma settings). Maybe Steve is reading this and could provide a hint. smile.gif
As per TED's suggestion I will use a gamma of 2.1 (TV), as decreasing levels will improve picture quality, and another benefit is that the 5% reading may be more accurate.

Also colorspace setting needs to be evaluated. I can use native or REC.709. On REC.709 I know saturation tracking is quite accurate at default, but I think gamut is too small. With native mode I have to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post

Also, what does the 1DLUT view look like of your Calibration LUT (CLUT) for your VT50?

doesn't my previos post answer this question?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1437739/lightspace-cms-now-supports-lumagen-eecolor-3d-lut-4-all/450#post_24067383

If You like to see other charts, please let me know.

best regards
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Hi JJ,

on gamma, as You said, it just takes seconds to generate new LUTs with different gamma target, so why not use it.
As per Doug Blackburns suggestions, 2.25 is a really sweet spot for nearly all movies.
The Hatfields & McCoys trilogy is a perfect example for not using 2.2 gamma. It all looks washed out very much, and 2.3 was perfect.
Personally I see no benefit to target a gamma which is industry standard (2.2), but don't like the picture.
And there were never issues with crushed blacks on higher gamma settings. MLL of the VT50 was 0.008 cd/m² and the new VT60 has 0.002 cd/m² out of the box, but I don't know if I can trust this, as such low Y is clearly very close to the probe capabilities. (Tom Huffman says 0.003, Spectracal 0.002 for I1D3/C6 meter)
on my VT50 EU the only usable mode was THX cinema, but with a great lack of controls. It only had color, contrast and brightness setting, for WB I had to use cuts and drives in the service menu, gamma toggled between 2.2 and 2.25.
But this doesn't matter any more, because VT50 is history and my new VT60 is pretty much the same as the US models, with all controls needed available.
I have to do some research which settings to use and which better not. As per Steve's suggestion in the LS forum I tend to use 2pt WB only, as the 10pt WB is working against the LUT.
But gamma is not nice, so I tend to smooth it using the 10pt controls (luma settings). Maybe Steve is reading this and could provide a hint. smile.gif
As per TED's suggestion I will use a gamma of 2.1 (TV), as decreasing levels will improve picture quality, and another benefit is that the 5% reading may be more accurate.

Also colorspace setting needs to be evaluated. I can use native or REC.709. On REC.709 I know saturation tracking is quite accurate at default, but I think gamut is too small. With native mode I have to see.
doesn't my previos post answer this question?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1437739/lightspace-cms-now-supports-lumagen-eecolor-3d-lut-4-all/450#post_24067383

If You like to see other charts, please let me know.

best regards

Hi DrFaxe:

I'm looking for the chart that is the 1D LUT View of your Calibration LUT. "The 1D LUT View mode shows an interpolated graphic of the 3D LUT as a 1D LUT" per Steve. Its the LUT viewer you used to do the Relax filter with. In the way I described it, it may of sounded similar to the RGB Separation Chart that comes with a Quick or Display Characterization Profile Run. To get the 1D View Chart, one has to go into "Convert Color Space" to generate the rec709 Calibration LUT, then click View, then View Mode, then select 1D LUT Viewer (there are 3 viewer modes to choose from: Color Bars, 3D Cube and 1D LUT Viewer). I've shown the 3 LUT views from a recent 17^3 Calibration LUT for the Epson 6020 projector, as noted in Diagrams 2-4 below.

For more info on Light Space Viewer modes, go to this Light Space Info Page
http://www.lightillusion.com/lightspace_manual.html#view_mode
and search for "1D LUT" and click 3 times and you'll find an explanation for all 3 LUT Viewers Light Space has. If you search for "1D" and keep clicking and you'll see how the 1D LUT Viewer is being used for all the Light Space filters (Relax, Unity Blend, Smooth, Axis Blend ect) ... these filters allow you to do post LUT calibration modifications to your Calibration LUT. These LS filters, some of which are 3D (w. Radius control), are useful to correct for dark color probe mis-readings and to correct for discoloration in the shadow grays, like hues of red, green or blue.


Diagram 1. Light Space Unity LUT ... This shows a perfectly calibrated display needing no color adjustments ... the ideal Verification LUT.


Diagram 2. Epson 6020 17^3 CLUT Using Light Space Cube Viewer


Diagram 3. Epson 6020 17^3 CLUT Using Light Space Color Bar Viewer with a Nearly Invisible Space Ship Reference Image Inserted ... from the movie Prometheus ... for use in mod'g Light Space LUTs with Photoshop. wink.gif


Diagram 4. Epson 6020 17^3 CLUT Using Light Space 1D LUT Viewer

As you see in Diagram 4, the Light Space Calibration LUT 1D Viewer shows a nearly black line nearly on the 45 degree angle between black (Lower Left corner) and White (upper right corner). This is one of the goals for the Calibration LUT and you get there through a "proper" Pre-Calibration workflow. Took a lot of practice and help from Steve Shaw and TED to get to this point.

I included Diagram 1 to show you the ultimate destination for a Light Space Calibration LUT. Its when you verify the accuracy of the CLUT through an Active LUT profile run and come up with a Verification LUT that looks nearly the same as Diagram 1. The ideal Verification LUT will have nearly no color correction ... as shown in Diagram 1. I say nearly because the Calibration and Verification LUTs are influenced by many things ... those that come to mind include ambient light conditions, limitations in display technologies, type of probe you are using and probe setup, display pre-cal setup, the level of eye integration and modification to the Calibration LUT during LUT verification workflow and lastly, the quality of the mathematics and the color engine used in the LUT calibration software program. The math is a big factor. I have found no better mathematics in any LUT calibration software program than Light Space ... just based on all the LUT tools that are available for tweaking the LUT and how great the movies look on my Epson Projector with eeColor. A plethora of LUT tools is critical for any competent development and field support ... let alone to support a calibrator's passion to tweak their results. A lot of calibrators are tweakers. Don't you agree? They love to tweak and tweak and tweak 'til the cows come home. looool. Light Space LUT tools allow one to do this. I am not a math guy, just a user like you.

Kind Regards,

JJ
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Thanks JJ,

these were very useful informations. Attached the 1DLUT of my old display:



and the 10pt hybrid profle for download

10pthyb1.04it5dip.zip 25k .zip file

as You say, the 1DLUT view is very useful. You see green is too much and red too low at the high end. With the gain controls it was easy to smooth both, except the highest value of red. It's because of clipping of the red channel of the TV.
I will evaluate the filters the next days, as I now can see how they work with the the help of the 1DLUT view.

thanks a lot for this!!

best regards
Attached Files
File Type: zip 10pthyb1.04it5dip.zip (25.4 KB, 16 views)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Thanks JJ,

these were very useful informations. Attached the 1DLUT of my old display:



and the 10pt hybrid profle for download

10pthyb1.04it5dip.zip 25k .zip file

as You say, the 1DLUT view is very useful. You see green is too much and red too low at the high end. With the gain controls it was easy to smooth both, except the highest value of red. It's because of clipping of the red channel of the TV.
I will evaluate the filters the next days, as I now can see how they work with the the help of the 1DLUT view.

thanks a lot for this!!

best regards

Hello DrFaxe,

Use the attached file, I have removed your Hybrid readings, now it's 10-Point Cube File (1.000 Colors). Ignore the graphs and go directly to ColorSpace Conversion Screen.

Normal 3D Cube will work better with this display.

10pthyb1.04it5dipEdiTED.zip 23k .zip file
Attached Files
File Type: zip 10pthyb1.04it5dipEdiTED.zip (22.6 KB, 11 views)

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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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