LightSpace CMS Now Supports Lumagen + eeColor 3D-LUT 4 All - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 728 Old 12-23-2012, 02:42 PM
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I really appreciate your post. I had heard that the 5x5x5 did not fix cyan but it certainly does. Did you produce the LUT with LD set to off?. Is the varying gamma the same with LD both off and on?

I have calibrated the 70X5 using Chromapure 2.13 and a Radiance XD numerous times since getting the set in Sept, 2011. Compared results, particularly gamma/grayscale with LD Off, LD On and IVC Low On. The latter is what I use for watching actual sources. I can't tell the difference in results either based upon measurements (gamma/greyscale/CIE charts/DEs or luminance charts) and visually other than increased pop on high luminance portions of real life material with IVC low on. Based upon that all but the very early 5x5x5 work has been with IVC Low on. The changes in gamma are the result of the 5x5x5 calibration changing the luminance levels at certain points during calibration. My last two major efforts were to fine tune the 96 points within the CIE triangle to improve yellow performance and the skin tones of certain complexions. Didn't do all 96, rather chose points based upon luminance levels because yellow was off only at 35 & 40, 60 & 65 and 85 & 90%. The luminance levels (FL) changed the most (+ or-) corresponded closely to where the gamma changed in the post run of gamma. For example added a lot of green at 80-90% to move yellow closer to it's box and gamma at 85% dropped from 2.3 to 2.25 in the post run.

My advice (for what it's worth) is to do the profiling with whatever LD setting the owner normally uses. IVC low works well but stay away from IVC high.
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post #92 of 728 Old 12-23-2012, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

There is a Light Illusion forum thread on how plasma calibration is difficult because of ABL - here.
I'm sitting in Wisconsin freezing my arse off waiting for the Packer game to start and I shoulda brought a meter with me. I want to try a high point count LightSpace profile to see how it works on the Panasonic VT50 plasma I have here. Last fall I did a 5x5x5 with Calman and a Lumagen Radiance and the result was good with GS and color but the gamma was a tad funky.

thanks for posting the URL, yeah I know that thread and have read it and posted in it... I have literally tried everything to get correct readings on a Plasma with the i1D3.

I think currently the i1D3 is handled incorrectly by LS when profiling a Plasma, that's why it'll be interesting to see if you encounter the (obvious) probe errors (I mentioned in my post above) with your Klein K-10 A...

My VT50 was already calibrated with CM5 using 125-point Autocal and the Mini, results were very good, with the same meter combo and TV setup - so I have a direct comparison of the achieved accuracy as currently in my testing I'm uploading the final LS LUT to the Mini...

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post #93 of 728 Old 12-23-2012, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

My VT50 was already calibrated with CM5 using 125-point Autocal and the Mini, results were very good, with the same meter combo and TV setup - so I have a direct comparison of the achieved accuracy as currently in my testing I'm uploading the final LS LUT to the Mini...

Since a radiance only has 125 points to calibrate, and CalMAN 5 will pull all those points to within a dE of 1, it's really not possible to do a significantly better job. The interpolated points in between are adjust by the lumagens algorithim.


We are continuing to enhance our algorithims to help speed the process up, and ensure that we get the best results for point that we can adjust, but one once you start getting under a dE of 1, you start running into the repeatability of the display and meter, and are quite likely within 1 or 2 8 bit steps of absolutely perfect.

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post #94 of 728 Old 12-23-2012, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

thanks for posting the URL, yeah I know that thread and have read it and posted in it... I have literally tried everything to get correct readings on a Plasma with the i1D3.
I think currently the i1D3 is handled incorrectly by LS when profiling a Plasma, that's why it'll be interesting to see if you encounter the (obvious) probe errors (I mentioned in my post above) with your Klein K-10 A...
My VT50 was already calibrated with CM5 using 125-point Autocal and the Mini, results were very good, with the same meter combo and TV setup - so I have a direct comparison of the achieved accuracy as currently in my testing I'm uploading the final LS LUT to the Mini...

Mike, CME 504 has improved there Lum ramps (APL) for are VT50's, still some tweaking to be done by the boys at CM but none the less better.
Give the latest CM 504 a try, you probably will get better results than CM 503.

ss
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post #95 of 728 Old 12-24-2012, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Mike, CME 504 has improved there Lum ramps (APL) for are VT50's, still some tweaking to be done by the boys at CM but none the less better.
Give the latest CM 504 a try, you probably will get better results than CM 503.
ss

thanks, will test it tomorrow on the VT50.

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post #96 of 728 Old 12-26-2012, 06:19 AM
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I think currently the i1D3 is handled incorrectly by LS when profiling a Plasma,

I think in our private discussions we have proved that to not be the case, but as for the problems you have encountered, they are strange, but not LS related as far as we can see.

You have seen the results ConnecTEDD has gained on his plasma (different model) and we categorically know LS profiling and calibration mathematics is way beyond any alternative.

We have also calibrated a lot of plasmas with the i1D3 and LS ourselves, and the results have always matched those ConnecTEDD has found.

I just wish we could be looking over you shoulder to watch your LS workflow!

Steve

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post #97 of 728 Old 12-26-2012, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

thanks for posting the URL, yeah I know that thread and have read it and posted in it... I have literally tried everything to get correct readings on a Plasma with the i1D3.
I think currently the i1D3 is handled incorrectly by LS when profiling a Plasma, that's why it'll be interesting to see if you encounter the (obvious) probe errors (I mentioned in my post above) with your Klein K-10 A...

IronMike, from 4 Profiling sessions i have runned already using Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Bluray Disk with my bluray player as a source for 10-Point Cube (1000 Colors) using automated proccess, synced with LightSpace,

from 1000 Colors, one reading was off the CIE Chart, the reading of Black Pattern, as i have KURO Plasma, it returns 0.005-6 cd/m2 with chromaticity that iD3 is out of spec to read.

Using the same pattern at CalMAN , it returns Zero cdm/2, x 0.333, y: 0.333, means that the meter can't read this from CalMAN, its not actually a problem in LightSpace that one.

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post #98 of 728 Old 12-26-2012, 11:36 AM
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@Ted

I think it's time for a Klein K-10A biggrin.gif

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post #99 of 728 Old 12-26-2012, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

I just wish we could be looking over you shoulder to watch your LS workflow!
Steve

I wish that too, I got more data coming your way !
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

IronMike, from 4 Profiling sessions i have runned already using Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Bluray Disk with my bluray player as a source for 10-Point Cube (1000 Colors) using automated proccess, synced with LightSpace,
from 1000 Colors, one reading was off the CIE Chart, the reading of Black Pattern, as i have KURO Plasma, it returns 0.005-6 cd/m2 with chromaticity that iD3 is out of spec to read.
Using the same pattern at CalMAN , it returns Zero cdm/2, x 0.333, y: 0.333, means that the meter can't read this from CalMAN, its not actually a problem in LightSpace that one.

'cause u were using DIP 6 sec mode (covering the longest read time for dark patches), not CL (which I used for all of my tests), which is (in my test runs) the culprit for the problems I was encountering with the i1D3...

using DIP 6sec with my HDMI out, I got now a profile that had no reading errors with the i1D3...

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post #100 of 728 Old 12-27-2012, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike 
'cause u were using DIP 6 sec mode (covering the longest read time for dark patches), not CL (which I used for all of my tests), which is (in my test runs) the culprit for the problems I was encountering with the i1D3...

Strange Problem, because using Closed Loop Calibration the LightSpace displays the next color patch after reading the current one.

DIP mode used with 6 sec setting, it displays the pattern for 6 totally seconds but is taking one measurement only, this reading time is depending from your intergration time settings and the lumiance of the pattern, if it's dark it takes longer.

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post #101 of 728 Old 01-06-2013, 04:44 PM
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This sounds like a very interesting technology, but I am still having trouble making the $$ figures work for me (and I suspect many other enthusiasts here). Many of us have a Raidance, one of the auto calibration packages, and a meter. Those enthusiasts are seemingly quite happy with the 5x5x5 calibration. In order to make a switch, we are looking at minimum $2600 for new software, ~$300-600 for a new meter (as the one we have is typically tied to the calibration software) and in the end will still use a 5x5x5 LUT. Is there actual data showing what average dE reduction we can get going from a 5x5x5 calibration to a 17x17x17 profile + 5x5x5 LUT (the 4913 points measured in both setups)? If that solution does not produce a big enough improvement, then we need to add the eeColor ($600, which sounds like a fantastic deal on its own). So we are now up to $3500-3800 to switch from our current, quite good 5x5x5 calibration solution to the 17x17x17 profile + 63x63x63 LUT. Like I said, I am having a really hard time making the numbers work.
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post #102 of 728 Old 01-06-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by amt View Post

This sounds like a very interesting technology, but I am still having trouble making the $$ figures work for me (and I suspect many other enthusiasts here). Many of us have a Raidance, one of the auto calibration packages, and a meter. Those enthusiasts are seemingly quite happy with the 5x5x5 calibration. In order to make a switch, we are looking at minimum $2600 for new software, ~$300-600 for a new meter (as the one we have is typically tied to the calibration software) and in the end will still use a 5x5x5 LUT. Is there actual data showing what average dE reduction we can get going from a 5x5x5 calibration to a 17x17x17 profile + 5x5x5 LUT (the 4913 points measured in both setups)? If that solution does not produce a big enough improvement, then we need to add the eeColor ($600, which sounds like a fantastic deal on its own). So we are now up to $3500-3800 to switch from our current, quite good 5x5x5 calibration solution to the 17x17x17 profile + 63x63x63 LUT. Like I said, I am having a really hard time making the numbers work.

There's more to it than just creating a 5x5x5 LUT from a 17x17x17 one. There's the ability to profile once and then calculate what you want from the profile instead of re-measuring everything all over again. For example, if I had calibrated to a 2.2 gamma and wanted to see how a 2.4 gamma looked I could just re-calculate with LightSpace. With the others you have to remeasure and recalibrate your gamma/grayscale and then re-do the 5x5x5 cube to boot!

I am intrigued!
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post #103 of 728 Old 01-06-2013, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amt View Post

This sounds like a very interesting technology, but I am still having trouble making the $$ figures work for me (and I suspect many other enthusiasts here). Many of us have a Raidance, one of the auto calibration packages, and a meter. Those enthusiasts are seemingly quite happy with the 5x5x5 calibration. In order to make a switch, we are looking at minimum $2600 for new software, ~$300-600 for a new meter (as the one we have is typically tied to the calibration software) and in the end will still use a 5x5x5 LUT. Is there actual data showing what average dE reduction we can get going from a 5x5x5 calibration to a 17x17x17 profile + 5x5x5 LUT (the 4913 points measured in both setups)? If that solution does not produce a big enough improvement, then we need to add the eeColor ($600, which sounds like a fantastic deal on its own). So we are now up to $3500-3800 to switch from our current, quite good 5x5x5 calibration solution to the 17x17x17 profile + 63x63x63 LUT. Like I said, I am having a really hard time making the numbers work.

Much of this is discussed in post #8. I have what will probably wind up being a four day calibration job starting tomorrow after which I will set up some sort of direct comparison between the 125 and 4913 point profiles so hopefully within a week. I haven't attempted this yet but I will try and put both calibrations on an eeBox so that a button push of the remote will swap modes. If that is not possible I can use a combination of HDMI splitter, Mini 3D, eeBox, and HDMI switch. It would be a bit clunky but can be done.

What we've seen so far are subtle enhancements such as skin tones looking more real but it impossible to say that one method is decidedly better than another without having something close to a side by side comparison.

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post #104 of 728 Old 01-06-2013, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post

There's more to it than just creating a 5x5x5 LUT from a 17x17x17 one. There's the ability to profile once and then calculate what you want from the profile instead of re-measuring everything all over again. For example, if I had calibrated to a 2.2 gamma and wanted to see how a 2.4 gamma looked I could just re-calculate with LightSpace. With the others you have to remeasure and recalibrate your gamma/grayscale and then re-do the 5x5x5 cube to boot!
I am intrigued!

5x & 17x are profile sizes. Respectively, 64x and 65x 3D LUTs are calculated from the results of the profiles. As I understand it, the 64x 3D is accompanied by a 1D LUT for grayscale whereas grayscale is handled within the 65x LUT by LightSpace.

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post #105 of 728 Old 01-06-2013, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post

There's more to it than just creating a 5x5x5 LUT from a 17x17x17 one. There's the ability to profile once and then calculate what you want from the profile instead of re-measuring everything all over again. For example, if I had calibrated to a 2.2 gamma and wanted to see how a 2.4 gamma looked I could just re-calculate with LightSpace. With the others you have to remeasure and recalibrate your gamma/grayscale and then re-do the 5x5x5 cube to boot!
I am intrigued!

Redo-ing an AutoCal in CalMAN only takes about 20-30 minutes, $3500 to save 30 minutes?

Not to mention you'll need to profile 17^3 to be able to generate it. So while you're waiting for the 4000 point profile to complete, CalMAN could bang out nearly 10 different LUTs. Our average time to generate a 125 point cube is about 275-325 reads. If you look at lightspace's documentation, they say they need a 17^3 or 4000+ readings to be able to generate enough data to accurately predict a 5x5x5 cube (http://www.lightillusion.com/home_cinema_calibration.html).

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post #106 of 728 Old 01-06-2013, 08:28 PM
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I AutoCal in CalMAN mini-3d 5X5X5 used 2hours,Low light levels isgood,
colorbox 16X16X16 I used 15hours And low brightness levels is not smooth enough
I hope AutoCal in CalMAN can to optimize the
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post #107 of 728 Old 01-06-2013, 10:02 PM
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I AutoCal in CalMAN mini-3d 5X5X5 used 2hours,Low light levels isgood,
colorbox 16X16X16 I used 15hours And low brightness levels is not smooth enough
I hope AutoCal in CalMAN can to optimize the

The number of reads we have to do and the speed of the box are our limiting factors.

I know for the radiance time it takes is nearly all reads, since it is very fast to update the hardware. 2 hours is about the outer limit of time possible, with slower hardware and/or low light environments (projectors).

The Colorbox on the other hand's time on the other hand is dominated by updating the hardware. In the next revision we have found some speed improvements through optimizations.

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post #108 of 728 Old 01-07-2013, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Redo-ing an AutoCal in CalMAN only takes about 20-30 minutes, $3500 to save 30 minutes?
Not to mention you'll need to profile 17^3 to be able to generate it. So while you're waiting for the 4000 point profile to complete, CalMAN could bang out nearly 10 different LUTs. Our average time to generate a 125 point cube is about 275-325 reads. If you look at lightspace's documentation, they say they need a 17^3 or 4000+ readings to be able to generate enough data to accurately predict a 5x5x5 cube (http://www.lightillusion.com/home_cinema_calibration.html).

275-325 are very few reads, to my setup with pre-calibrated grayscale >1.0dE and pretty linear gamma, it requires 55 reads for grayscale and 750 reads for 3D Cube for Lumagen Mini-3D.
Also re-doing of AutoCal is reseting the Cube Memory before it starts, so the time is the same with AutoCal or Re-AutoCal.

ALL Professional Industry Calibrations requires Full Display Profiling, this is world standard from professional software like THX CineCubeHD, LightSpace CMS, FilmLight Truelight, world standard software that used to post-productions facilities.

Lower than 10x10x10 is not accepted there for critical color applications.

Don't forget that LightSpace is used for 3D-Cube applications ONLY from 2009!!!

Before 3 months 3D-LUT's were unknown for any user here......

I have used LightSpace Evaluation creating 10x10x10 Cube and 17x17x17 Cube memories using my eeColor and swapping the memories there is a Noticed Difference. Skintones are more real and the image has amazing sense of depth.

Measuring these 2 memories with CalMAN 5-Step Saturation, both gave the same 0.6-7dE2000 average, it's impossible to check which memory (1000 color or 4913 colors) is better using CalMAN or ChromaPure, because that software measures exact 30 Points for CalMAN (5-Step Saturation) or 24 Points for ChromaPure (4-Step Saturation) of the whole 4913 Colors !!!

Don't forget that THX CineCubeHD, LightSpace CMS, FilmLight Truelight don't have ant type of dE presentation....

These professional software after full profiling of the display, they know the full capabilities of the measured display, then they calculate the best final correction.

It's a joke to try to compare any of these standard professional software solutions like the above to any other....

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post #109 of 728 Old 01-07-2013, 02:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Just to remind you that if you want REAL 17-Point Cube Calibrations, the direct comparison of the cheapest way of hardware/software solutions are:

LightSpace Home Cinema : 2.320$ + eeColor: 600$ + iD3 OEM Meter: 295$ = 3.215$
No Pattern Generator Required. +995$ 1PRO2 if you want for profiling = 4.580$

CalMAN Studio System (Small to Medium Studio): 6.680$ + Extra fees per year.
(Package Deal of CalMAN Studio Software, C6 Colorimeter, VideoForge Pattern Generator, ColorBox Hardware)
No i1PRO/i1PRO1/iD3 OEM support for this package, only proffesional meters supported.

For those who interest for 5x5x5 Cube Calibrations:

LightSpace Home Cinema : 2.320$ + eeColor: 1.500$ + iD3 OEM Meter: 295$ = 4.150$
No Pattern Generator Required. +995$ 1PRO2 if you want for profiling = 4.580$

Lumagen Radiance Mini 3D Color Cube Calibration Package: 3.089$ + 69$ fees per year.
Package Deal of CalMAN 5 Home Video Enthusiast License, Lumagen Radiance Mini-3D, SpectraCal C6 Colorimeter)

This comparison shows that SpectraCal's Lumagen solution is very expensive for only 125 colors compared to LightSpace+eecolor combination 4913 color calibration.

I have Lumagen Mini-3D + eeColor, after doing direct comparisons of both calibrated hardware (Lumagen from CalMAN - eeColor from LightSpace) using my Blu-Ray player which has 2 HDMI outputs, after the comparison i have placed my Lumagen to it's box again, i will use it again only for 1D Calibrations as a pattern generator...

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post #110 of 728 Old 01-07-2013, 02:32 AM
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Not to mention you'll need to profile 17^3 to be able to generate it.

Not correct - you can also use the Hybrid 1D + 3D profiling capability...

So, as an example, you could do a 21 step 1D profile combined with a 5x5x5 3D profile, with the calibration LUT generated via 33 point (33x33x33) colour mathematics.

Total patch reads 145 - so very, very quick, and with a very high level of final accuracy.
(Each patch is read just once, as there is no guess-work in LightSpace)

Just another option added to the software to help calibrators biggrin.gif
(And yes, the website has not been updated yet!)

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post #111 of 728 Old 01-07-2013, 02:38 AM
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In all fairness, one needs to compare apples with apples:

> so if we are comparing the sophistication of the algorithms, we need to either compare 5^3 CM to 5^3 LS (Lumagen) or 64^3 CM to 65^3 LS (color box)....

> if we are comparing solutions based on entry level price, one would also need to compare their FEATURE SET and USER FRIENDLINESS

also, there needs to be a standard of verification to ensure proper results and allow a comparison - this is one area where LS has to catch up IMO - we need a proper evaluation report for a created LUT ASAP, especially since (pretty much) all LUT's created in LS (from a display profile) are subject to (filter) manipulation, a user can make things worse (applying the wrong filters) - the Quick Profile verification is not enough IMO...

since we cannot fully evaluate a 64^3 / 65^3 cube atm (or only partially), we're basing judgement on visual perception, which is a starting point but is obviously prone to subjective opinions - numbers on the other hand don't lie... wink.gif

I fully agree to the fact that any application can only profit from as many measurements as possible (within the meter's capability), as all calculated data is based on the logic (aka best guess) an algorithm has and that's it... bad logic or calculations based on less measurements will cause inaccuracies with troublesome, non-linear displays, mostly found in consumer grade TV sets (as I've experienced them)...

One thing that needs to be mentioned though in the comparison between calibration solutions is the REPEATABILITY of the measurements and results one is given after an Autocal / display profile... and with LS I get THE SAME reads (-> results) 24 hours later... with CM I cannot even confirm an Autocal result IMMEDIATELY (--> 30 secs) after Autocal - going to Quick Analysis (greyscale / color checker) and verifying what I was just presented in 125-point Cube results page shows me different results EVERY TIME (I can only guess this has to do with the way the meter and meter data is handled) - these are my experiences, hopefully some of you had better luck... rolleyes.gif

LS being a pretty rudimentary / bare bones application atm with all tools that are needed but (by far) not as feature packed as CM, are currently adding quite a few features to even further enhance results on (inferior) consumer grade TV sets - their team works very fast and they consider all feature requests.


- M

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
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post #112 of 728 Old 01-07-2013, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
colorbox 16X16X16 I used 15hours And low brightness levels is not smooth enough

What???? 15 hours for an unacceptable result????

LightSpace would have performed something like 4 separate 17x17x17 profiles in that time, with very, very accurate results...
Or about a hundred Hybrid 1D+3D profiles with very, very similar levels of accuracy.

eek.gif

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post #113 of 728 Old 01-07-2013, 02:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

One thing that needs to be mentioned though in the comparison between calibration solutions is the REPEATABILITY of the measurements and results one is given after an Autocal / display profile... and with LS I get THE SAME reads (-> results) 24 hours later... with CM I cannot even confirm an Autocal result IMMEDIATELY (--> 30 secs) after Autocal - going to Quick Analysis (greyscale / color checker) and verifying what I was just presented in 125-point Cube results page shows me different results EVERY TIME (I can only guess this has to do with the way the meter and meter data is handled) - these are my experiences, hopefully some of you had better luck...

That test i can confirm that i have the same results as you mentioned.

Using Lumagen with CalMAN AutoCal, i runned 3 AutoCal's in the raw, and the final measured results were different! The larger variations were at GrayScale+Gamma!

I runned the same test of 10-Point Cube using LightSpace, each profiling took 1hour + 40 minutes, using a custom BluRay Disk i have create to display the patterns that is synced with LightSpace.

I runned 3 profiliings in the raw using with my display's same settings, the Final results were exactly the same all three times running reports form CalMAN.

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post #114 of 728 Old 01-18-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Just i wanted to inform you, as i'm part of the LightSpace Home Cinema Testing Team, that all the members of the initial team that had tested the LightSpace using eeColor for 17-Point Cube Calibrations, all the testers had bought the Full Version of LightSpace CMS, after a lot of successfull calibrations runs using various displays. LCD Projectors/LCD/LED/DLP etc...

From my side as a private user/enthousiast I used eeColor profiling my Pioneer KURO using iD3 + i1PRO2, for 10-Point Cube or 17-Point Cube, without any problem.

The other 2 members of the team were certified proffessionals with more advanced meters.

Buzz got Klein K-10A and is THX Level II Certified.

The other tester has no account here, he has Klein K-10A and Photo Research PR-670 meters, he is THX Level II + ISF Level II Professional Calibrator.

Buzz and the other tester are using their Notebook HDMI Out with LightSpace as a Pattern Generator, with the proper setup of their notebook and using SpaceMatch Software, their HDMI is accurate.

For my calibrations i didn't used my Notebook HDMI Out as a pattern generator but i created a Blu-Ray Disk Project with chapters that are synced perfectly with the order that LightSpace Requests each Color, for 17-Point Cube (4913 Colors) or 10-Point Cube (1000 Colors) runs.

I have runned almost 15 calibration runs already to check for any problem using that Disk and in a few days i will post a review and instructions for how to use that disk. It will be available for download for those who will be interested.

Before 2 weeks our 'Testing' team became larger with the addition of another 2 private users, one of them bought the full LightSpace CMS also after testing it to his setup and the other one user he will buy it too.

More details and instructions for using the Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk will be available soon.

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post #115 of 728 Old 01-20-2013, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
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These are 3 examples of measuring the 3 different 10-Point Cube (1000 Colors) LUTs that are created from LightSpace with my eeColor using CalMAN for Verification.

I runned 3 10-Point Cube profillings with 3 different KURO Initial Settings, the difference in settings where:


Picture 01 (26-12-2012): Color 0 - Gamma +1 to all.


Picture 02 (27-12-2012): Color +1 Gamma 0 to all.


Picture 03 (28-12-2012): Color 0 - Gamma 0 to all.

The Pattern Source was the Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk and it's used a Chapter that it displays each color for 6 sec.

The total time it took to complete that automated 1000 color profiling was 1 Hour and 40 Min. with my iD3.

Anytime you can use your notebook HDMI out for a source and that will cut the measurement time in half, this have to do with your display/meter.

I used CalMAN as Verification Tool to check how it's measured using another software.

As you are looking the Charts think that these Targets that CalMAN is measuring is not the Actual Points of Correction that LightSpace has.

When you are running a 10-Point Cube, this doesn't mean that you are fixing the 10-20-30-40...100% Points, 0 is the first Point so you have 9-Points for Grayscale, at LightSpace the first Step of correction using 10-Point Cube is not the 11.11% you may think but the 5.20%, so with a 10-Point Cube you will have no problem at the dark range of the colors. (Using 17-Point Cube, the first step is at 4.71% for example.)

Think also that when you are measuring Lumagen using 4-Step Saturation, you are measuring the exact Points of correction, because 5-Point Cube means 0-25-50-75-100%.

@ Picture 03 i used 5-Point Saturation for verification and that shows that the interpolations that LightSpace creates are also good wink.gif

It will be interesting from someone to use 5-Point Saturation to verify the 125 Color Calibration to see how Lumagen interpolates the other points.or to use 13-Step grayspace or 15-Step grayscale, not the 21-Step that you are measuring only the corrected points.

BTW 10-Point Cube profiling is the miminum accepted by professionals but 17-Point Cube is the world standard for post-production use.

My 17-Point Cube Results will came soon... I'm still working to finish the Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk.... I have add some photos in my signature if you want to check the chapters included. wink.gif

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post #116 of 728 Old 01-21-2013, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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These are some 3D Space Graphical Presentation of the difference between Oridinary 1D LUT vs. 3D Cube LUT's Calibrations



21-Step Grayscale + 6-Color Gamut (100% Saturation/100% Amplitube) Using CalMAN/ChromaPure with AVFoundry Video EQ PRO, DVDO iScan DUO, Lumagen Radiance Series (Without 125 Color Firmware Upgrade) or using Displays Internal Controls (when they working and not producing new problems)



5-Point Cube (125 Colors) with Lumagen Radiance Series Using CalMAN/ChromaPure with Lumagen Radiance Series. (Combained With 21-Step Grayscale, the Picture is showing the 3D Cube of Lumagen for CMS (5 Step Grayscale there), Lumagen has 2 separate LUTs, 1D LUT with 21-Step Grayscale and 3D Cube LUT of 5x5x5.)



10-Point Cube (1000 Colors) with eeColor using LightSpace CMS.



17-Point Cube (4913 Colors) with eeColor using LightSpace CMS.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
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post #117 of 728 Old 01-30-2013, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

Nope, actually you do not need a pattern generator with LightSpace at all...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It just measuring imaginary things?
Something has to generate patterns.
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

How so, you need some form of reference generator that is guaranteed to output true RGB triplets?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

Indeed - more accurate than some of the 'Pattern Generators' out there that we have tested...

And of course, you can simply make your own DVDs and Blu-Rays with the patterns directly exported from LightSpace.
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

How does this still Guarantee those are reference? It’s like saying my meter is reference without being able to verify with a true reference meter. Same goes for generators. You can’t guarantee the output of the DVD/Blu-Ray are reference because the player can easily mess the RGB triplet levels and often do. The only devices you can guarantee as a reference generator are the ones that have been certified to do so and more often have direct control over the output chips. Without a true reference RGB triplet generator trying to create 3D LUT from them is a shot in the dark at best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

Easy - because when we do use Signal Generators, we are using $200K's worth of Mistika, Scratch, Pablo, BaseLight, or other Digital Intermediate system, or 10'sK worth of Davio, Pluto, Tcube, etc....

See: http://www.lightillusion.com/lightspace_plugins.html

And we compare those system outputs with or approach of NOT using a Pattern Generator...

We can actually digitally record all the various output and compare them to single bit depth.

So, yes, they are all proven - perfectly.

There is a real benefit coming from the high-end professional market some times...

(But, I do agree some DVD and Blu-Ray platers can be a lot less than perfect, but we have no control over them!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

So you are saying you have to use a plug in supported by a reference generator to get a reference signal. How does this help someone without said reference generator to guarantee the non-reference device they are using is reference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

I guess the fact we have tested many, many different PC setups kinda proves that...
And tested agianst the best possible 'Pattern Generators.

It is how we found the problem with the BMD HDlink Pro, which BMD have since admitted is there.
(And why they haven't fixed it is beyond me!)

And it's how we know many of the 'pattern generators out there are actually not accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

So Steve you are going on record as saying every PC/Mac with a HDMI output port is guaranteed by you as being a true RGB triplet reference? I’m not sure I would be as bold to make that statement and stake my reputation on that.

Hint: We to have a lot of test gear from various companies including ones used in professional markets. We also work with the video card chipset manufactures on various projects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

All the PCs we have tested, and we have tested many (and I really do mean many!) have been perfect - yep.
And as you can see, we have access to the most advanced test equipment out there - our customer base is the hight-end film and tv post-production facilities, after all.

Of course, there will always be some crappy graphics cards out there, and it's no surprise we don't use Macs eek.gif
But, we have not seen a poor PC HDMI out (or Display Port) for a long time - hence out adoption of this approach.
But, we do control the video card as required.

And our team also designs a lot of the high-end image processing systems out there.

We really do know what we are talking about.

Now CalMAN Studio AutoCube that is used for post-production professionals who create, develop, and edit color-critical motion picture and television broadcast content on reference studio and professional monitors, advertising as a solution the Internal Pattern Generator throu Notebook HDMI Output for performing 3D-LUT Cube Calibrations for critical color applications......

CalMAN AutoCube (using client generator as source)
http://studio.spectracal.com/autocube

Before some posts there were a discusion about the inaccuracy of the Notebooks HDMI Output.... But now can be safely used for professional calibrations.....

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post #118 of 728 Old 01-30-2013, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Now CalMAN Studio AutoCube that is used for post-production professionals who create, develop, and edit color-critical motion picture and television broadcast content on reference studio and professional monitors, advertising as a solution the Internal Pattern Generator throu Notebook HDMI Output for performing 3D-LUT Cube Calibrations for critical color applications......

We have always supported using your laptop HDMI output as a generator with either our built in patterns or our standalone client running on the computer. But we have also always said this is for a specific use case. The only valid use case IS the computer is your only source for content. In other words a HTPC or editing workstation.

You can NOT and should NOT assume the HDMI output of the laptop is reference we nor anyone else can guarantee that it is or even if it was it will stay that way. Yes I know you can run a series of output tests and put in a corrective LUT in the computer if needed to simulate reference but as soon as you do that you are compressing or shifting bits and are no longer a true RGB triplet generator. Best case is you run a series of tests and the output seems to be correct but unless you use a HDMI frame or protocol analyzer you just don't know. Don't you think if this worked we would say it did and then charge for what is one of the best pattern generators now for Mac/PC?

Again way to obscure the truth for personal gain, this is really getting tiring.

Derek

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post #119 of 728 Old 01-30-2013, 09:41 AM
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I've always said it might work, it might not work.

Unless you compare it to reference to validate it you'll never know.

You've always been able to use the internal pattern generator.


Effectively there is no change.

Joel Barsotti
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post #120 of 728 Old 01-30-2013, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Again way to obscure the truth for personal gain, this is really getting tiring.

I'm not selling anything, I'm wondering what you mean 'by personal gain'...

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