A request for some help, advice and a few questions re:calibration. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 12 Old 11-15-2012, 01:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I have just bought a new tv (that has no gamma control adjustment) and therefore am also about to buy either an i1 Display Pro / ColorMonkey / Spyder Elite to calibrate this tv with.

I'm hoping some of the more educated in this field could please give me some advice.

So here are my questions.
My TV has no Gamma control but does have the following:
Brightness,
Contrast,
Hue
Colour Saturation
RGB sliders for colour Temp,
RGBYCM individual Saturation/Hue/Brightness,

Even when using the Brightness and Contrast controls my gamma is still way to high and shadow detail is crushed).
I can see the flashing bars all the way down to 17 (on the black level chart/video) and the white level chart is also good, but it seems my greys are just to dark.

This gives the colours a wonderful "POP" but I miss my shadows and need to bring them back, but as I have no gamma control, I'm unsure how to go about this, which leads me to my next question.

Which calibration device for an LED tv.
Spyder 4 Elite
ColorMonkey
I1 Display Pro

Will buying this calibration device allow me to get more control over my screens gamma by using it to calibrate each colours individual (RGBYCM) brightness, hue and saturation etc.

Will adjusting the brightness of each individual RGBYCM colour, effect overall gamma or am I out of luck and on a fruitless mission here.

Anyone with advice on the calibration devices, calibrating or anything else is really welcomed as I am looking/hoping for any advice that will help me get the most out of this HDTV.

P.s
Has anyone made an SBS version of the AVS disc to allow us to do 3D colour calibrations?

Thanks folks,
Ian
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post #2 of 12 Old 11-15-2012, 11:17 AM
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"Gamma" controls rarely work anyway. The real way you set gamma is by getting a video display with 10 or more grayscale adjustments (Samsung or LG right now, perhaps a few others). You set the 10 or 20 controls so that each grayscale step is at the proper luminance level. To do that, you select your gamma target (like 2.25 works quite well for most content on most video displays) in the calibration software. Once you measure 100% white, the calibration software knows how bright 95%, 90%, 85%, etc. white should be and you simply adjust the luminance control or all 3 color controls for each step up or down until you measure the correct luminance level. The ColorMunki's performance has been overwhelmed by newer meters. Check SpectraCal (CalMAN software publisher) info about meters to get a fairly unbiased summary of the capabilities of each meter. Asking owners of the meters tends to not be all that helpful as there's a tendency for people to like what they bought even if the reasons aren't valid (obviously, doesn't always happen, I hated the Spyder meter that came with ColorFacts all those years ago).

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post #3 of 12 Old 11-15-2012, 11:56 AM
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In regards to a meter (having just one), spend the time reading through all the pages and comments here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1373556/i1-pro-or-d3-if-you-could-only-have-one-meter

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/

It's really worth the read....

I suggest finding a used i1Pro (Rev D) Spectro.. you could always add a colorimeter (profiled from the i1Pro) in the future if needed or if you like....

Need to find a Professional Calibrator? Click Here to PM me with your Display & City

Calibrator List - Pioneer ISFccc Interface

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ControlCAL™
Designed by Calibrators for Calibrators™

No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

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post #4 of 12 Old 11-15-2012, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replys, its been very informative...

I'm beginning to wonder if this is even possible... The tv has no 10 point ire or anything like that... It has very basic calibration settings but it's just not great to look at.

Even with a calibration device I'm struggleing to see how I can actually calibrate this tv using only the options above.

I've done a bit of reading up, and looking at all the pros and cons and future use, for me, my usability and scenarios, I think the i1 Display Pro would suit me. I'm not a photoshop user, photographer etc ad I don't have high end TVs etc. I just wanted to eek out the best I could from the kit I have and the i1 pro seems to fit my needs, however, that said, there's no point if I can't actually calibrate my display due to its own limitations.

Without 10 point ire etc can I even affect gamma?
The set clearly has its gamma adjusted in each mode, but it seems like its been set by each mode independently (movie/standard/game) and I can't affect it.

Basically I want to calibrate PC mode as my main watching mode but even when I use the exact settings from movie mode it's still black crush... Even adjusting the brightness and contrast does nothing but wash or blow out the image.. I can't seem to get the different modes to match movie mode and hoped that buying a calibration device would allow me to do so.

My reason for this is movie mode is very laggy, using my pc mode is better for my HTPC (less lag) but I can't seem to calibrate the set as it has very few controls.

Hmm....
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post #5 of 12 Old 11-15-2012, 01:30 PM
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I am going to step out on a limb here and say the reason your picture probably looks so bad, is you are using a pc as your source. You would want to calibrate your TV with a reference level device like a BR player, then once the Display is as accurate as you can get it, utilize a software (spectracal PCclient) that can calibrate the gray scale and gamma of your Video card LUT while using your previously calibrated display.
Many many issues with using a HTPC as you may or may not have notices while searching the forum. Check out Calman and the PC client at spectracal. Only caveat of the pc client is that it has to run on the HTPC and it has to be windows..
Hope this will shed some light on what is needed.
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post #6 of 12 Old 11-15-2012, 02:05 PM
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An alternative is to use SpaceMatch DCM for control of the PC output without the use of ICC profiles.
This gives a high level of control when combined with LightSpace CMS.

You can then quickly check that the output of the PC is as needed, as well as the TV calibration.

Either way, you must make sure the PC has no active ICC profiles causing problems.

And using the likes of SpaceMatch will give you the control over gamma you seem to be missing.

If you fancy a lot of reading look at the Light Illusion Home Cinema pages...

wink.gif

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post #7 of 12 Old 11-15-2012, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey,
Wow this is becoming really complicated. I do have a bluray player I can use to calibrate, but as my HTPC is my main viewing utility I thought I could/should play my files via this and calibrate via that device to ensure accuracy.

What would be the best wy for me to approach this then?

I have a limited budget.
I have an entry level LED 3D HDTV
I use a HTPC
And My display needs calibrating...

Is there a better way for me to do this?
Would buying an i1 Pro be a complete waste of my time.

What's the easiest and best way to achieve my goal, as I'm not to clued up on this and now all these new options are coming in I feel like I'm drowning eek.gif
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post #8 of 12 Old 11-15-2012, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Beale View Post

What's the easiest and best way to achieve my goal, as I'm not to clued up on this and now all these new options are coming in I feel like I'm drowning eek.gif

Hire a pro to calibrate the display and the rest of the chain.
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post #9 of 12 Old 11-17-2012, 03:36 AM - Thread Starter
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ROI isn't good doing things that way...

The cost vs the actual tv price, inability to recalibrate this or any other set again, if I move etc is just pointless.

For those who have expensive sets or cinema setups then yes, but for me I think just doing a basic home calibration will suffice on a budget tv. It doesn't have ISf calibration features so I'm sure they would just laugh at me or look at me as if I'm a fool smile.gif

I'd much rather get a 90% calibration by buying the best device I can (which is still much ES the ISf) and then calibrating to the best of my and the devices ability and being able to redo this regularly to try nd receive better results...
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post #10 of 12 Old 11-17-2012, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Beale View Post

It doesn't have ISf calibration features so I'm sure they would just laugh at me or look at me as if I'm a fool smile.gif

I understand your other reasoning, but I want to point something out. I have been doing ISF calibrations for 10 years, long before 10 point adjustments or ISF Day/Night modes started appearing on displays. A set does not need these features to get an ISF calibration. And a good pro would not laugh at you or ridicule you. Now maybe if you asked to get your 5 year old's Hannah Montana 13" TV calibrated... tongue.gif
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post #11 of 12 Old 11-17-2012, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Beale View Post

ROI isn't good doing things that way...
The cost vs the actual tv price, inability to recalibrate this or any other set again, if I move etc is just pointless.
For those who have expensive sets or cinema setups then yes, but for me I think just doing a basic home calibration will suffice on a budget tv. It doesn't have ISf calibration features so I'm sure they would just laugh at me or look at me as if I'm a fool smile.gif
I'd much rather get a 90% calibration by buying the best device I can (which is still much ES the ISf) and then calibrating to the best of my and the devices ability and being able to redo this regularly to try nd receive better results...

You asked for easiest best way, not the cheapest way. And as far as the need to redo it, that all depends on the type of display not the quality or expense of the display. You can also rent the equipment and software if you don't want to invest the $300-$1000 to buy the equipment.

Please note a pro is going to cost you $300-$400 and they do touch up serves for much less if it needs it in a year or so.. If you want to invest the money in quality hardware and software and weeks of your time to learn than that is a different story... but best and easy is let someone who knows what they are dong and has $8000 -$10000 worth of equipment to come in, give you and education and get your set as close as it can be gotten to the HD Standard.
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post #12 of 12 Old 11-17-2012, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

You asked for easiest best way, not the cheapest way. And as far as the need to redo it, that all depends on the type of display not the quality or expense of the display. You can also rent the equipment and software if you don't want to invest the $300-$1000 to buy the equipment.
Please note a pro is going to cost you $300-$400 and they do touch up serves for much less if it needs it in a year or so.. If you want to invest the money in quality hardware and software and weeks of your time to learn than that is a different story... but best and easy is let someone who knows what they are dong and has $8000 -$10000 worth of equipment to come in, give you and education and get your set as close as it can be gotten to the HD Standard.

Hmm... You do have a point, however, In my initial post i didnt say that i want the "easiest best way"

My tv only cost $1000 so I'm not wanting to spend $400 getting 1 hdmi calibrated as if I move house (or device) surroundings etc the tv will need re doing.

I can buy a i1 Display Pro for 150 and plough time and effort into it with software and my laptop.

As my tv only has basic (and I mean very basic) adjustments, I'm not sure someone with $10,000 worth of equipment will get much more out of it as it only has basic controls.

Gamma is fixed on this set, not adjustable, no controls, only basic colour contrast and RGB. Even color temp has only 1 axis :-/ it's very very limited.

I don't believe that a set this basic will benefit from $10,000 worth of kit, much like iPod speakers won't really benefit from a $10,000 AVR compared to a £1000 AVR.

I did mention that I was on a budget, that it was a budget tv, and that it had no advanced calibrations, so for me, what I was trying g to get over was, what's (excluding ISf) which device (i1D Pro etc mentioned above) will allow me, to calibrate a HDTV (entry level) the best.

With the device, I assume I can get RGB as close to reference, white as close to reference, black as close to reference etc and then must live with the fixed gamma limitations. I don't mind living with it, as it's a cheap tv and low cost device.. If I spend another £500 on calibrations and touch ups etc that's an afoul lot of Money for the same end result.

So in your guys experience, especially the ISF guy above, out of those consumer products, which would be best for me?

I went to spectra and caimans site and they recommend i1D Pro for the best results. Will this device be the best of the consumer bunch and will it allow me to get a "near as dammit" result (user limitations excluded) smile.gif
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