Plasma 64E8000 Calibration, it's good? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 11-24-2012, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello guys,

i calibrated my plasma 64E8000, anyone has tips to optimize more my TV picture?

Technical Info:
Black Level: 0.017cd/m2
Luma Total: ~101cd/m2
Constrast (on/off): ~5900:1
Gamma: 2.22

Main Source: HTPC using output RGB 4:4:4, but with Video Levels 16..235 when running video. With this config, i can see WTW and BTB.
Used Disk: Gamut Calibration Disk

My numbers/charts:

precala.th.png

poscal.th.png

chroma.th.png

I'm using a i1 D3 Pro + ChromaPure. I'm using my meter in contact mode, in non-contact mode (few inches distance) is possible have measures more accurate?

In the last chroma chart, is possible see the 100% sat with high dE, but i did choose calibrate CMS using 75% sat/75% amp. Is possible optimize the 75% and 100% at same time?

Exists any patterns to calibrate RGB 0..255? I want configure my game mode, but i want do this with patterns 0..255.



Sorry my poor english frown.gif
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post #2 of 20 Old 11-24-2012, 05:05 PM
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You should be able to get your Red primary color much closer as well as the luminance of the other colors they seem like they are not bright enough. I use 75%a/75%s pattern as well. This is what is recommended to calibrate to since all the other saturation points will be much closer but of course 100% saturation will be out. I can't believe how linear and flat your gamma is. I tried to get mine on my pn51d6500 but for some reason I use the real time gamma module and set everything so that it is close to the target 2.22 with the gamma pattern . Then I go and measure the entire greyscale and my gamma changes from the value I set it to in the gamma module for the higher % levels, say 70 %, 80% and 90 %. The greyscale pattern gives me an avg of 2.19 if I use a gamma preset of -1. and only 2.15 gamma in the 90 % white. Your Contrast seems high as well . Cell light should be set to max as has been discussed many times with other avs members in the dxx7000/8000 calibration forum.
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post #3 of 20 Old 11-25-2012, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hungro View Post

You should be able to get your Red primary color much closer as well as the luminance of the other colors they seem like they are not bright enough. I use 75%a/75%s pattern as well. This is what is recommended to calibrate to since all the other saturation points will be much closer but of course 100% saturation will be out. I can't believe how linear and flat your gamma is. I tried to get mine on my pn51d6500 but for some reason I use the real time gamma module and set everything so that it is close to the target 2.22 with the gamma pattern . Then I go and measure the entire greyscale and my gamma changes from the value I set it to in the gamma module for the higher % levels, say 70 %, 80% and 90 %. The greyscale pattern gives me an avg of 2.19 if I use a gamma preset of -1. and only 2.15 gamma in the 90 % white. Your Contrast seems high as well . Cell light should be set to max as has been discussed many times with other avs members in the dxx7000/8000 calibration forum.

Hello hungro, thanks for response smile.gif

the red color is a problem to me, at 100% is much out, but at 75% is much close. How can i adjust luminance of colors? In my TV i have only RGB adjustments in CMS system. The TV color setting will adjust luminance of colors?

My gamma i have adjusted using 10p white balance. After greyscale adjusts, i set each point increasing or decreasing luminance for this point. After each adjust, i run grayscale module to see the results.

Max cell light? Do you have a link of this discussion? I'm a newbie on avs forum.
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post #4 of 20 Old 11-25-2012, 04:28 PM
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I think the discussion on the max cell light setting for samsung plasmas is in the pnxxd7000/8000 calibration forum. Sorry , it's the best I can do. . Take a look below. Color I just use my cms , Red for the Red primary controls the luminance. Here are some tips .

From Michael TLV:

The Samsung RGB - additive subtractive CMS is both a 2d and 3d system.

Red ... has rgb to move it around. You use green and blue to position the red onto the correct x,y point. Then you use the red control to add brightness or take away brightness until correct. (dE L)

Cyan ... red pulls it closer to the center of the triangle. green and blue tug it to green or blue. Want it brighter? add both green and blue in a balanced way that it still stays in the same place in the x,y space.

In chromapure under the color management module you can change the color space to RGB.Then it is much easier to get to your targets. Adjust Red until it is close to 0 % and then green and finally blue, look for when the colors have the lowest delta e combination.
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post #5 of 20 Old 11-26-2012, 09:56 AM
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Ok, here is an excerpt talking about the Cell Light control.

The Cell Light control is a bogus control with no real use or value... Samsung added it simply so they could use the same menu structure for both LCD and Plasma TVs... Cell Light replaces Backlight in the menu structure. The only correct setting for Cell Light is whatever the maximum setting is... that's how panels would operate if there was no Cell Light control. Having Cell Light adds an unnecessary level of complexity to trying to get Contrast and Brightness set properly.

Set Cell Light to it's maximum setting, then re-set Contrast and Brightness so you have 30-35 fL for 100% white in a dark room and so your black level is set correctly (a pattern with steps from 0-25 is more precise for setting Brightness than a PLUGE, but they aren't as common on test/setup discs.
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post #6 of 20 Old 11-26-2012, 11:32 AM
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The above Cell Light comments would be true for Samsung plasmas without 10 pt WB controls like the B550, etc... However, on the E series you should not follow this approach. The contrast on these plasmas should be kept high to avoid mistracking of the 10 pt adjustment. Then, if the light output is too high, you can reduce the light output without major side effects by reducing the cell light.
The E series plasmas aren't terribly bright, so chances are the cell light will be at the upper end of it's range.
35 fL is the THX recommended peak light output for totally dark rooms- no lamps, etc. Most of my customers like a bit more than that.
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post #7 of 20 Old 11-26-2012, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

I think the discussion on the max cell light setting for samsung plasmas is in the pnxxd7000/8000 calibration forum. Sorry , it's the best I can do. . Take a look below. Color I just use my cms , Red for the Red primary controls the luminance. Here are some tips .
From Michael TLV:
The Samsung RGB - additive subtractive CMS is both a 2d and 3d system.
Red ... has rgb to move it around. You use green and blue to position the red onto the correct x,y point. Then you use the red control to add brightness or take away brightness until correct. (dE L)
Cyan ... red pulls it closer to the center of the triangle. green and blue tug it to green or blue. Want it brighter? add both green and blue in a balanced way that it still stays in the same place in the x,y space.
In chromapure under the color management module you can change the color space to RGB.Then it is much easier to get to your targets. Adjust Red until it is close to 0 % and then green and finally blue, look for when the colors have the lowest delta e combination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

Ok, here is an excerpt talking about the Cell Light control.
The Cell Light control is a bogus control with no real use or value... Samsung added it simply so they could use the same menu structure for both LCD and Plasma TVs... Cell Light replaces Backlight in the menu structure. The only correct setting for Cell Light is whatever the maximum setting is... that's how panels would operate if there was no Cell Light control. Having Cell Light adds an unnecessary level of complexity to trying to get Contrast and Brightness set properly.
Set Cell Light to it's maximum setting, then re-set Contrast and Brightness so you have 30-35 fL for 100% white in a dark room and so your black level is set correctly (a pattern with steps from 0-25 is more precise for setting Brightness than a PLUGE, but they aren't as common on test/setup discs.

Thanks for the informations/tips Hungro.

About colors, i'm doing exactly what you talked.
I'm adjusting my CMS using Color Management in ChromaPure, using RGB mode.

See the image below:
colorsfa.th.png

I'm adjust using 75/75, the dE in first chart is minimum, but at 75/100 or 100/100 is much off. frown.gif

Thanks again biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

The above Cell Light comments would be true for Samsung plasmas without 10 pt WB controls like the B550, etc... However, on the E series you should not follow this approach. The contrast on these plasmas should be kept high to avoid mistracking of the 10 pt adjustment. Then, if the light output is too high, you can reduce the light output without major side effects by reducing the cell light.
The E series plasmas aren't terribly bright, so chances are the cell light will be at the upper end of it's range.
35 fL is the THX recommended peak light output for totally dark rooms- no lamps, etc. Most of my customers like a bit more than that.

Hello Chad, thanks for your explanation.
I'll keep high contrast with low cell light for now. My room is dark, and 29~30fL are comfortable to me, but i'll test 35fL soon smile.gif

Any tips for my colors?
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post #8 of 20 Old 11-27-2012, 03:56 AM
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I recently purchased the PN51E8000 and did a quick calibration. As noted previously, the overall brightness is a bit low - I can get only 32 fL with both Cell Light and Contrast maxed out. This is fine for night-time viewing but a bit low for daytime in my non-light-controlled room. Has anyone come up with a way to boost output? That being said, GS calibration went pretty well. I can get nearly perfect GS tracking and gamma tracking (2.22 for Movie, 2.35 for CalDay) with 32 fL output. Surprisingly, CMS seems a tiny bit off, especially Blue primary (dE is close to 10). I use an Accupel 3000 signal generator and cannot get the blue any closer (of course Magenta is also a bit off). The litttle bit of info on the web suggests that my CMS should be better... I'm starting to wonder if my i1Pro is "defective" in reading blue (is was recertified about a year ago). Any input from the pros?
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post #9 of 20 Old 11-27-2012, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeitaroSan View Post

Any tips for my colors?

Your results look good for the method you chose: 75% lum 75% sat. When I reviewed the E8000, I used 75% lum 100% sat. The results with real program material looked outstanding, though running the ACM in ChromaPure showed that the reduced saturation levels were a bit pale. Not grossly different like the Sharp Quattrons, Epson PJs, or other displays with real discrepancies, though.

In a situation like that with the E8000, you can take one of two approaches: cal at 75/75 and have fully saturated colors a little too saturated which will make the image more rich in color, or cal at 75/100 and have reduced saturation levels be a little pale, which will make the colors more polite.

For the ones I did, I used the polite colors approach and loved the results.
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post #10 of 20 Old 11-28-2012, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Your results look good for the method you chose: 75% lum 75% sat. When I reviewed the E8000, I used 75% lum 100% sat. The results with real program material looked outstanding, though running the ACM in ChromaPure showed that the reduced saturation levels were a bit pale. Not grossly different like the Sharp Quattrons, Epson PJs, or other displays with real discrepancies, though.
In a situation like that with the E8000, you can take one of two approaches: cal at 75/75 and have fully saturated colors a little too saturated which will make the image more rich in color, or cal at 75/100 and have reduced saturation levels be a little pale, which will make the colors more polite.
For the ones I did, I used the polite colors approach and loved the results.

Thanks Chad! biggrin.gif
I'll try a new calibration with your advices (35 fL and colors 75%amp/100%sat). I'll post results here soon.
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post #11 of 20 Old 11-29-2012, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeitaroSan View Post

Thanks for the informations/tips Hungro.
About colors, i'm doing exactly what you talked.
I'm adjusting my CMS using Color Management in ChromaPure, using RGB mode.
See the image below:
colorsfa.th.png
I'm adjust using 75/75, the dE in first chart is minimum, but at 75/100 or 100/100 is much off. frown.gif
Thanks again biggrin.gif
Hello Chad, thanks for your explanation.
I'll keep high contrast with low cell light for now. My room is dark, and 29~30fL are comfortable to me, but i'll test 35fL soon smile.gif
Any tips for my colors?

Stick with the 75%A/75%S, i think that I read this combination is best , makes the 50%, and 25% saturation points closer. Have you checked this? It is better to compromise and have the rest of the gamut closer to accurate then only having the very outer edge or 100% saturation.
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post #12 of 20 Old 11-29-2012, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisda1 View Post

I recently purchased the PN51E8000 and did a quick calibration. As noted previously, the overall brightness is a bit low - I can get only 32 fL with both Cell Light and Contrast maxed out. This is fine for night-time viewing but a bit low for daytime in my non-light-controlled room. Has anyone come up with a way to boost output? That being said, GS calibration went pretty well. I can get nearly perfect GS tracking and gamma tracking (2.22 for Movie, 2.35 for CalDay) with 32 fL output. Surprisingly, CMS seems a tiny bit off, especially Blue primary (dE is close to 10). I use an Accupel 3000 signal generator and cannot get the blue any closer (of course Magenta is also a bit off). The litttle bit of info on the web suggests that my CMS should be better... I'm starting to wonder if my i1Pro is "defective" in reading blue (is was recertified about a year ago). Any input from the pros?

I am not a "pro" but a novice like you smile.gif Delta e of 10 for Blue is in the visible error range just to let you know and seems high. Try calibrating with 75%amp/75% saturation patterns from the Gamut Calibration Disk. This might work out better for you. Good luck, oh and also use the 10 % APL patterns with your plasma.
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post #13 of 20 Old 11-29-2012, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

Stick with the 75%A/75%S, i think that I read this combination is best , makes the 50%, and 25% saturation points closer. Have you checked this? It is better to compromise and have the rest of the gamut closer to accurate then only having the very outer edge or 100% saturation.

Hi Hungro, thanks.
I checked 25% and 50% too, is possible check it on my previous posts:

chroma.th.png

In the above chart i'm using 75/75. The 25% and 50% points are good to me, but when i use 100% saturation these points keep much off, much lower than expected. Hard choice, lol biggrin.gif

but i'll post new tests soon.

Hungro, i'm using 10% windows patterns, no apl. The apl patterns are better?
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As I suspected, i1Pro meter was source of error. I received my newly-recalibrated C5 from Spectracal yesterday and was able to get all GS AND gamut points below dEs of 1.0. I did notice that the 10 pt white Balance controls were more of a challenge than I've seen with previous Samsungs. Usually I could max out contrast and cell light and the 10 pt intervals lined up with my 11 pt GS intervals. On this PN51E8000, when Contrast and Cell Light were maxed out the 10 pt intervals were shifted, especially in the middle of the range (ie, for 10 pt interval 5, raising Red raised red in both 50 and 60 %). Made getting all the intervals uniform quite challenging (especially when 50 % was low in red and 60% was high.) I may play a bit more to figure this out, but everything looks good after calibration. As with all the Samsungs I've played with, I need to drop the Color slider 4 notches or so after calibration to tame oversaturated skin tones. (I'll send the i1Pro back soon...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeitaroSan View Post

Hi Hungro, thanks.
I checked 25% and 50% too, is possible check it on my previous posts:
chroma.th.png
In the above chart i'm using 75/75. The 25% and 50% points are good to me, but when i use 100% saturation these points keep much off, much lower than expected. Hard choice, lol biggrin.gif
but i'll post new tests soon.
Hungro, i'm using 10% windows patterns, no apl. The apl patterns are better?

The APL patterns are supposed to keep your ABL or Automatic Brightness Limiter in check so that it doesn't interfere with the results. Also the majority of content lies in the 75%a/75%s range.100% saturation is not displayed very often. You will be out if you go with the latter at 100% saturation and there is nothing you can do about it it's the way your tv's gamut tracks. Having your gamut be more accurate at 3 saturation points 25, 50 and 75 is the better trade off. . Perhaps someone else can explain the technical reason better then I can.
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post #16 of 20 Old 11-30-2012, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

The APL patterns are supposed to keep your ABL or Automatic Brightness Limiter in check so that it doesn't interfere with the results. Also the majority of content lies in the 75%a/75%s range.100% saturation is not displayed very often. You will be out if you go with the latter at 100% saturation and there is nothing you can do about it it's the way your tv's gamut tracks. Having your gamut be more accurate at 3 saturation points 25, 50 and 75 is the better trade off. . Perhaps someone else can explain the technical reason better then I can.

I think like you, i prefer 25%,50% and 75% close with 100% out, like you talked: "... the better trade off".
Thanks for posts Hungro biggrin.gif
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post #17 of 20 Old 12-12-2012, 03:55 PM
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Is it common to adjust the color setting even after tweaking the CMS? Which is more common practice to adjust color then cms or leave color/tint settings at default and only adjust the CMS. I have done the latter. Adjusted only the CMS.
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post #18 of 20 Old 12-20-2012, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

Is it common to adjust the color setting even after tweaking the CMS? Which is more common practice to adjust color then cms or leave color/tint settings at default and only adjust the CMS. I have done the latter. Adjusted only the CMS.
I've calibrated more than 10 Sammys (both LCDs and plasmas) in the past five years, using an i1Pro and various versions of CalMAN. For those that have CMS, I usually calibrate at 75%/75% and minimize deltaE2000. I recheck GS and tweak, recheck CMS and tweak, and then look at program material. Most of my watching is TV (Uverse cable) (I calibrate a different mode for BluRay). I know about the inconsistent broadcast quality... I find that almost always, SKIN TONES are a bit oversaturated with broadcast material, and I'm particularly sensitive to this. I drop the color slider 2 or 3 (occasionally 4) notches to make skin tones appear natural. There is certainly a point where you can modify your own display to match your perceptional preferences/biases...

Dan
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post #19 of 20 Old 12-20-2012, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

Is it common to adjust the color setting even after tweaking the CMS? Which is more common practice to adjust color then cms or leave color/tint settings at default and only adjust the CMS. I have done the latter. Adjusted only the CMS.

I've always tweaked the main colour setting using the sammy inbuilt blue filter before cms work. Found this gives me a good starting point and dialling in seems to be a little easier.

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post #20 of 20 Old 12-21-2012, 10:55 AM
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I've always tweaked the main colour setting using the sammy inbuilt blue filter before cms work. Found this gives me a good starting point and dialling in seems to be a little easier.

I calibrated using the Color Decoding module in Chromapure , set the color control where Red had the least error in brightness closest to zero % and then for tint I used Cyan which for brightness error closest was a setting of 51/49 for color it was 49. Did not use a blue filter since I have a meter . The end results seemed to be closer when it came to the luminance of the colors after the CMS work was completed. My set tracks best using 75%a/75%s patterns.
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