hmm what to pick... (good scaler vs good colors - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 7 Old 11-25-2012, 04:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi

let me first give you my setup

bluray player - Philips BDP9500 with marvell qdeo kyoto-g2 & PS3 slim

Onlyo 876 with HQV Reon-VX

some samsung TV (not to important for this matter) - but is slightly undersaturated with red and green


If I set my bluray player to output 1080p24fps my onkyo will not aply any of the isf settings that is available in the reciever, however anything else it will.
that means if I set my bluray player to output 1080p24 (which I prefere due to the better scaler for DVD materiale, and not have to deinterlace bluray movies) but as the TV displayes a slightly undersaturated red and green i cant correct that.

however if I set my players to lets say 1080i (ie deinterlace bluray movies) and then correct the saturation issue in the Onkyo and then use the reciever to upscale to 1080p it can correct the saturation problem.

I know that some will say just try and see what you prefere, thats fine. But it would be nice with some comments regarding what others would sugest
I lean torwards no deinterlacing and just accept the slightly undersaturated colors.

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post #2 of 7 Old 11-25-2012, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

Hi
let me first give you my setup
bluray player - Philips BDP9500 with marvell qdeo kyoto-g2 & PS3 slim
Onlyo 876 with HQV Reon-VX
some samsung TV (not to important for this matter) - but is slightly undersaturated with red and green
If I set my bluray player to output 1080p24fps my onkyo will not aply any of the isf settings that is available in the reciever, however anything else it will.
that means if I set my bluray player to output 1080p24 (which I prefere due to the better scaler for DVD materiale, and not have to deinterlace bluray movies) but as the TV displayes a slightly undersaturated red and green i cant correct that.
however if I set my players to lets say 1080i (ie deinterlace bluray movies) and then correct the saturation issue in the Onkyo and then use the reciever to upscale to 1080p it can correct the saturation problem.
I know that some will say just try and see what you prefere, thats fine. But it would be nice with some comments regarding what others would sugest
I lean torwards no deinterlacing and just accept the slightly undersaturated colors.
My understanding is that you cannot correct an undersaturated color by using any kind of CMS (no matter external processor or internal CMS of the display). If the RGB triplet representing 100% saturated red (I believe it is 235, 16, 16) is displayed within the CIE color gamut (i.e. undersaturated gamut), there is nothing you can do by using CMS to move it out from the white point any further. You should start with an oversaturated gamut and use the CMS to de-saturate the oversaturated points to effect the gamut correction.
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post #3 of 7 Old 11-25-2012, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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yes that is correct with the controles within the display, however I have seen it today. If I change the output from my bluray player to anything else then 1080p24 and use the HLS controls in the onkyo I can change saturation (without increasing the luminance) So it deffenetly works.
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post #4 of 7 Old 11-25-2012, 03:04 PM
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If the Onkyo AVR can "increase saturation" so can the video display in some other picture mode. It is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY PERRENIALLY-FOR-INFINITY impossible for a video display that cannot reach 100% saturation natively to have any external device increase it's saturation. Now... the video display may have modes and options/settings that limit saturation and you MIGHT be able to use some external manipulation to achieve higher saturation, but the video display itself could achieve that higher saturation also if you use the mode and settings that allow the TV to reach "full native saturation". Expecting an external device to somehow magically increase saturation is like expecting a printer that can print 1 page in 10 seconds to somehow print 1 page in 9 or 8 seconds by changing the power cord or paper... it's just not going to happen.

In some cases, you might have to advance the TV's Color control somewhat (in some modes) to get the TV to achieve 100% saturation when measuring color. Actually, you want the TV to be able to achieve 109% saturation so you can see 109% white when data that bright exists in the video content (and it does, though it's fairly inconsequential as to whether your display stops at 100% or can display 109% -- 109% is more technically correct, but is invisible without test patterns to show whether it exists in images or not.

I would not trust the controls in the AVR farther than you can throw them. In fact, I would set the AVR to bypass mode. AVR manufacturers aren't typically very good at implementing video processor features in AVRs so that the processing is actually HELPFUL. Just having a video processor with a great reputation is WORTHLESS. The video processor is only as good as its implementation and it is PLENTY easy to screw that up. In fact, some AVRs still process the video even if you put the AVR in Bypass mode because the manufacturer did such a poor job of implementing the processor. You can't simply pick a picture more that SOUNDS like the right choice and assume it is "good"... you have to measure the choices and weigh the calibration options. I've seen 1 video display that would oversaturate coloirs in dynamic mode and undersaturate colors in every other mode. So I ended up calibrating Dynamic mode --- luckily in that case, all the extra processing could still be disabled, but sometimes Dynamic mode has processing done that you can't stop... that's not a good thing. In this case, Dynamic mode produced the best calibration for that particular make/model even though it was by far the least accurate mode before calibration.

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post #5 of 7 Old 11-26-2012, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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ahh I think as you say the keyword is in a different profile - I will try that. in the movie profile (as I am using now) if I increase the color control the saturation do increase aswell but the luminance level goes haywire, if I then use the CMS to reduce the luminance the saturation gors back aswell. but perhaps the dynamic profile will be possible to calibrate better.

I understand the display has its limits but!
when using the movie profile and the CMS(RGB based) control for red has both the green and blue set to 0, and red is still undersaturated, and I can increase the saturation from the AVR (without increasing the luminance) this must be an indication of that the display is capable of doing that. – Would that indicate that the display is available to display better saturation just not with the build in controls?

Regarding the implementation of the video processor you are right the Implementation on the 876 is not brilliant at all. Therefore I am considering splitting the signal from my bluray player so one goes to the TV and one goes to the AVR.
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post #6 of 7 Old 11-27-2012, 10:38 AM
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>Would that indicate that the display is available to display better saturation just not with the build in controls?

That would be a very strange situation... it might be possible, but it would be a mistake. You should try other picture modes before "Dynamic" since Dynamic mode might eliminate some better choices, like not being able to select a color temperature setting that is close to 6500K. If you have other choices like "Standard" or something like that, you may find that the color range is better... or you may find that your TV controls always interact in ways that prevent you from getting good luminance and good saturation at the same time. The other issue is whether you are using 100% color patterns or 75% color patterns. This refers to the luminance of the pattern. Calibrators generally will use 75% patterns since that is about 50% stimulus with a 2.25 gamma (50% of the luminance... so if 100% red is 6 fL, a 75% red pattern would measure close to 3 fL). You should be able to achieve 100% saturation for BOTH 75% patterns and 100% patterns, but if you have only used 100% patterns so far, you may find that you can get 100% saturation and good luminance with 75% patterns, but 100% patterns may be a little more trouble... that happens with some displays.

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post #7 of 7 Old 11-30-2012, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I just did a very quick session:

Dynamic: ok gamut but unavailable to acces the detailed settings i the tv so color temperature and RGB tracking was WAY off (as expected with the limited controls

Standard
out of the box: good gamut but not very good RGB tracking, (the reason I went with the movie option origianaly)
however calibrated I can get the gamut almoast spot on (within dE of 1.9) and this can also be improved since the luminnce is a bit low here and there.
The RGB tracking was fairly easy to dial in aswell - however this was only a quick session so a bit more work is required the gamma is also a bit high

regarding the patterns used since this is a LCD, I used field patterns and for the Gamut I used 75Saturation and 75% luminance patterns. However the display track the saturation pretty well.

Thank you for getting my mind of the movie preset..


Thank you..
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