Grayscale variances - different patterns, plasma calibration - Page 11 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #301 of 323 Old 10-11-2013, 04:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,712
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Liked: 360
Start with the smaller window (4%) APL and target BT.1886, if that looks good then stick with it.
Andrei_VVB likes this.
zoyd is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #302 of 323 Old 11-15-2013, 01:54 AM
Member
 
Speeder82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
A stupid question .. the background level in models of APL is fixed irrespective of the gray level of the window or it changes? I'm talking about GCD patterns.
Speeder82 is offline  
post #303 of 323 Old 11-15-2013, 05:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,712
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Liked: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeder82 View Post

A stupid question .. the background level in models of APL is fixed irrespective of the gray level of the window or it changes? I'm talking about GCD patterns.

On the GCD disk the background is adjusted so that average video level is 22%. This results in an average luminance level that varies between something like 4% and 15%.
zoyd is online now  
post #304 of 323 Old 11-15-2013, 09:18 AM
Advanced Member
 
cadett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Houma, La.
Posts: 815
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

On the GCD disk the background is adjusted so that average video level is 22%. This results in an average luminance level that varies between something like 4% and 15%.

So as we increase in patterns the background decrease in luminance?
cadett is offline  
post #305 of 323 Old 11-15-2013, 09:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,712
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Liked: 360
zoyd is online now  
post #306 of 323 Old 11-15-2013, 09:45 PM
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 16
How it will perform in terms of grayscale and gama the constant energy windows patterns on these plasmas? They will give better results? As far as I know are imune to abl.
Andrei_VVB is online now  
post #307 of 323 Old 11-16-2013, 04:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 227
No they won't give better results on every plasma TV. They will give DIFFERENT results. It is not possible to tell if the results will be better than using "normal" patterns until you try both methods then spend time viewing a LOT of content to decide which method produced the best final result. In many cases, you won't be able to decide which result is better because they will each have things that look better and things that look worse. But the results will be DIFFERENT -- a little different. It won't be a dramatic difference.

The problem is this... ABL will ALWAYS be present. You cannot turn it off. Other things that you CAN turn off should be turned off for calibration so you get the best result. An automatic iris is a little bit like ABL EXCEPT you are changing the amount of light AFTER the images are made so the entire image gets darker or brighter and gamma and other parameters really donot change relationships (the numbers may calculate differently, the image appearance will be consistent with an auto iris. With ABL, you are also getting non-linearities in the design of the TV included as brightness is limited in high-luminance images. You cannot stop that, it will always happen. If you calibrate WITHOUT ANY ABL, your calibration will not include any of the non-linearities. Which is why I advocate using standard window patterns where the window covers 10%-12% of the screen area with a black background. That allows for SOME ABL but not all of it. So you will at least be calibrating to eliminate SOME of the errors inherent in the TV. When you completely bypass ABL, you aren't getting ANY compensation within the calibration for those non-linearities. That's why you'll get DIFFERENT results with non-APL patterns and APL patterns. Most plasma TVs calibrate fine with standard 10%-12% windows. The few models that have problems are likely to STILL have problems with constant-APL patterns vs. non-constant-APL patterns. But it will likely take different measurements (than traditional measurements) to see those problems... and those problems may or may not be obvious just from viewing images, much depends on the acuity and training of the person as well as the type and size of the errors.

I would not expect any sort of "OMG!" reaction to calibration with different patterns though, you're likely to be disappointed that the results weren't more obvious.
cadett and tbaudoin like this.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #308 of 323 Old 11-17-2013, 11:57 AM
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Thank you for your elaborate answer. I know I won't see dramatic changes regarding pattern types because I've calibrated with every pattern that I've found and, although there are some differences, there's nothing too obvious.
Andrei_VVB is online now  
post #309 of 323 Old 05-18-2014, 07:23 PM
Member
 
buttonsw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Sorry to bring up an old thread but Doug is absolutely correct, ABL is always going to be there so you have to calibrate with it in mind.

I have a Pro Panny PF50 and tried the small windowed patterns and APL Patterns and although they looked great in HCFR with straight gamma lines and good White Balance as soon as you start watching real world material the calibration looks wrong. With Plasma calibration looking at the image with your eyes is just as important as looking at charts and graphs with -1 de errors!!

I found that the AVS Standard Window patterns are the best for the PF50 (I think they are 14%) with the ABL definitely kicking in a bit and the real world picture looks excellent. For an example, I tried the 6.5% windowed patterns which looked great in HCFR and I set my colour luminance to -1 in the menu as that what was measured when the ABL was not activating but in real world content when the ABL was kicking in resulted in over bright colours on skin tones etc. With the AVS standard windows I set colour to -4 as measured and the real world content looks superb.

If anyone is getting hung up on what pattern size and type to use I would not worry about it too much if you have a Plasma, I reckon a standard window between 10% to 15% would result in a good calibration.

Don't take any of this as gospel, but after trying loads of patterns on my PF50 this is the result I came up with and it produces the best real world picture.

Pioneer KRP-500A | Sony STR-DH810 Receiver | Tannoy HTS101 Speakers
buttonsw is offline  
post #310 of 323 Old 05-18-2014, 07:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Lumagen medium/large patterns: 11.11%

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools: Display Calibration Tools
meter: Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
Iron Mike is offline  
post #311 of 323 Old 05-19-2014, 01:25 AM
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Is there a FREE disc that has those? Usually there are below and over that size. My logic tells me that10% will be the closest. Is that 1.1% difference that important and will I see this in the final result?
Andrei_VVB is online now  
post #312 of 323 Old 05-19-2014, 01:28 AM
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Is there a FREE disc that has those? Usually there are below and over that size. My logic tells me that10% will be the closest. Is that 1.1% difference that important and will I see this in the final result?

I think Ted's disk has the Lumagen 11.11% patterns - not free but almost (very cheap) and very, very useful...

if not use 10% if that's what u got...
ConnecTEDDD likes this.

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools: Display Calibration Tools
meter: Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
Iron Mike is offline  
post #313 of 323 Old 05-19-2014, 01:35 AM
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Thanks Mike. I know about Ted's disk. I will pay gladly for such a good disk but I have 2 (or maybe 3 major problems)
1. it all rely on my not so accurate D3
2.it seems to.my eyes at least, that with 55vt60E the patterns that works best are small APL ones
3. the sony BR player may not be soo good for calibrating the actual panel (for broadcast viewing)
ConnecTEDDD likes this.
Andrei_VVB is online now  
post #314 of 323 Old 05-19-2014, 01:46 AM
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Thanks Mike. I know about Ted's disk. I will pay gladly for such a good disk but I have 2 (or maybe 3 major problems)
1. it all rely on my not so accurate D3
2.it seems to.my eyes at least, that with 55vt60E the patterns that works best are small APL ones
3. the sony BR player may not be soo good for calibrating the actual panel (for broadcast viewing)

you are absolutely correct, on the smaller VT60 models such as 50/55" it is highly recommended to use 5% or 6% APL patterns to counteract "green skin tones"... I'm not sure if Ted's disk contains those...

how are u currently calibrating ur set ? what's ur pattern source ?
xvfx likes this.

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools: Display Calibration Tools
meter: Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
Iron Mike is offline  
post #315 of 323 Old 05-19-2014, 01:56 AM
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Sony bd380 with Mascior's or GCD. I can tell you for sure that , unlike the two 50vt60s owned, the 55 model is MUCH less sensible to ABL and much moreconstant in readings with APL and no-APL patterns. Except 10-30 IRE's which are a little different the higher IRE's tracks exactly the same.
My real.issue is.with gamma. The shape and values are much more different. Targeting a ITU gamma with APL behaves almost like the natural response of the panel but using normal windows with 2.4 setting implies much more aggressive adjustments in 10p controls.
Andrei_VVB is online now  
post #316 of 323 Old 05-19-2014, 02:09 AM
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Sony bd380 with Mascior's or GCD. I can tell you for sure that , unlike the two 50vt60s owned, the 55 model is MUCH less sensible to ABL and much moreconstant in readings with APL and no-APL patterns. Except 10-30 IRE's which are a little different the higher IRE's tracks exactly the same.
My real.issue is.with gamma. The shape and values are much more different. Targeting a ITU gamma with APL behaves almost like the natural response of the panel but using normal windows with 2.4 setting implies much more aggressive adjustments in 10p controls.

well, the problem is also only being able to use 10pt controls... a LUT is so helpful in that regard... smile.gif

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools: Display Calibration Tools
meter: Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread: Lightspace & Custom Color Patch Set & Gamma Calibration on Panasonic 65VT60
Iron Mike is offline  
post #317 of 323 Old 05-19-2014, 02:11 AM
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 16
While I can't argue that, it is not impossible to dial in whatever gamma I want but that implies heavy adjustments and that's something I'm not comfortable with smile.gif
Andrei_VVB is online now  
post #318 of 323 Old 05-30-2014, 04:03 AM
Newbie
 
Rattlehead86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What do you guys think of Equal Energy Windows patterns from Spears&Munsil 2.0 disc?

They are quite big in size, but the measurements usually resemble medium to large-sized APL on these.
I wonder is someone tried these on their plasma and liked the results better.
Rattlehead86 is online now  
post #319 of 323 Old 05-30-2014, 02:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
sawfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 826
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlehead86 View Post

What do you guys think of Equal Energy Windows patterns from Spears&Munsil 2.0 disc?

They are quite big in size, but the measurements usually resemble medium to large-sized APL on these.
I wonder is someone tried these on their plasma and liked the results better.

When I tried the EE patterns on my 50ST60, I ended up with green-tinted flesh tones in low APL scenes like the firelit indoor scenes in Vikings S01E01. This happened with both my original C3 meter and the i1D3 I eventually bought. My best results have been with small windows. I started with 5% but settled on 2% several months ago. It looks great at all APL levels.
Rattlehead86 likes this.
sawfish is online now  
post #320 of 323 Old 09-15-2014, 09:07 PM
Advanced Member
 
hungro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 619
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

5% or 6% APL patterns to counteract "green skin tones"... I'm not sure if Ted's disk contains those...
Does this also affect the St60 smaller size displays?

Last edited by hungro; 09-15-2014 at 09:11 PM.
hungro is offline  
post #321 of 323 Old 09-16-2014, 11:18 AM
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 16
In my experience with one 50st60..Yes!
Andrei_VVB is online now  
post #322 of 323 Old 09-16-2014, 12:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 225 Post(s)
Liked: 509
Ditto on my 55" ST60

65VT60(Calibrated by Chad B)
55ST60(Calibrated by Chunon)
Sony BDV-F7 3dbluray/soundbar
Calman Enthusiast/I1Pro/I1D3
Dish Network with Hopper/Super Joey
chunon is offline  
post #323 of 323 Old 09-16-2014, 12:25 PM
Member
 
Andrei_VVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Chunon..what patterns you used for 55st60 and how it behave in comparison with 65vt60 in terms of calibration with different patterns size and type? Thanks!
Andrei_VVB is online now  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off