Grayscale variances - different patterns, plasma calibration - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 323 Old 12-01-2012, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by fallengt View Post

Does VT50 model has both 2-points and 10-point grayscale adjustment? You can try to use them both to fix gamma.

No you can't.

The two point is just RGB balance.

The 10 point part is RGB + Gamma.

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post #92 of 323 Old 12-02-2012, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

No you can't.
The two point is just RGB balance.
The 10 point part is RGB + Gamma.
I meant to use them both, 2 points to balance white then 10 points to flatten Gamma and balance RGB. That was what I did with my old LG, by doing this way you don't to have to make large 10-points adjustment and it easier to fix gamma than just using 10-points alone.
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post #93 of 323 Old 12-02-2012, 03:57 AM
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Thought on the VT50 that you had to use the gamma settings to effect gamma. Two and ten point adjustments readjusted itself to maintain the same Y. Is that not the case?

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post #94 of 323 Old 12-02-2012, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallengt View Post

I meant to use them both, 2 points to balance white then 10 points to flatten Gamma and balance RGB. That was what I did with my old LG, by doing this way you don't to have to make large 10-points adjustment and it easier to fix gamma than just using 10-points alone.

Ah yes, that's very correct.

The two point are the course controls and the 10 points the fine control.

You'll absolutely have an easier time of it adjusting the two point controls first. and the moving to the 10 point control.
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Thought on the VT50 that you had to use the gamma settings to effect gamma. Two and ten point adjustments readjusted itself to maintain the same Y. Is that not the case?

That is correct, but in CalMAN we do show the gamma control next to the RGB controls, so it's easy to think of them as being part of the same 10 point control.

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post #95 of 323 Old 12-02-2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

The problem with most plasmas is the displays on most are a lot less than 8 bits - actually around 5 to 6 bits.
This means that with almost any internal change that are more than simple setting changes (pre-set gamma, etc) it is very likely there will be banding issues.
frown.gif

Steve

That [plasmas are 5 or 6 bits at best] would imply no more than 32 to 64 shades of red, green and blue can be displayed on a plasma. I see many more than that. In fact, the 4-year-old Samsung plasma I'm using shows 219 steps of each color (16-235) and more than that when you display a pattern with 0-255 but some of those steps blend together (as much a limitation of human vision as a limitation of the display, I wasn't interested in taking ~256 readings with a meter to see if there were 256 (or 255) discrete "levels" being displayed (the meter would see them even if I didn't).

The fact that plasma pixels can only be on or off and that they have to flicker on and off multiple times during a frame to produce intermediate values of red, green, and blue MIGHT be interpreted as lower resolution, especially at very close viewing distances. But at normal viewing angles (more precise than distance since 30-40 degree angles would be panel-size independent), you don't see the individually flickering pixels.

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post #96 of 323 Old 12-02-2012, 01:33 PM
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That [plasmas are 5 or 6 bits at best] would imply no more than 32 to 64 shades of red, green and blue can be displayed on a plasma. I see many more than that.
Plasmas use dithering of the values to overcome the bit-depth limitation. That works for many images, but not smooth ramps.

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post #97 of 323 Old 12-05-2012, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings
Peter,
The THX mode gamma is based on test patterns in the 6.5% size. The larger your test patterns, the lower the gamma number becomes.
I did a run with boxes in the 20% size range ... and got 2.07 range gamma. Then for fun, I went to a 10% window size and the gamma went to 2.16 range.
The test patterns you use matter. No sense killing yourself over this gamma number. It actually is where it is supposed to be.
regards

If I understand this post correctly, it is counter productive to calibrate the "Gamma Detail Adjustment" (IRE) on Panasonic Plasma display's to coincide with the selected gamma setting in the user menu.

Example:
You begin a calibration session with the gamma set to 2.2 in the user menu, your software shows that you have an average gamma reading around 2.1 with 10% and 20% being lower and of course 80% and 90% is lower. These numbers are not accurate because of the size of the windows used due to ABL and your "true" gamma is actually 2.2.

Therefore, adjusting your "IRE" in the "Gamma Detail Adjustment" menu so that the software is showing a flat 2.2, is incorrect and what you have actually done is set your gamma to a higher number than 2.2.

If this is correct, then assuming that I understand Michael's post, the correct procedure would be to leave the IRE settings alone with respect to gamma?
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post #98 of 323 Old 12-06-2012, 12:15 PM
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No that's not exactly right...

Average gamma is a BAD indicator of what the displays REAL gamma is doing. Because each point in the grayscale (except 100% and 0%) can have a gamma calculated for them. You don't want a gamma of 2.5 at 90% that falls to 1.8 at 10%... it might AVERAGE 2.2 gamma, but images are going to look like crap. You want the gamma at every grayscale step to be your target (I prefer 2.25 Gamma as the target for most "modern" displays since mastering is done on displays set to 2.2 or 2.3 gamma, no matter WHAT anybody else says, that's what is actually being used during editing/grading and evaluation). What you want is a gamma of 2.25 for every step in the grayscale... or as close to that as you can get. .05 variation in gamma is fairly difficult to see, so if the gamma stays between 2.2 and 2.3 for every grayscale step, you'll have good-looking images. A variation of .1 in gamma measurements is moderately visible so +/- 0.1 variations (total range of .2) is getting fairly obvious and will impact the appearance of images.

Bottom line is that AVERAGE gamma looks at all the gamma values and calculates an average. You could have half the grayscale at 0.6 gamma and the other half at 3.3 gamma and the average gamma would be 2.25 but images would be horrendous. You really need to focus on gamma for each grayscale step and try to minimize the gamma differences between steps.

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post #99 of 323 Old 12-06-2012, 03:30 PM
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Understood, so we want as flat a line as we can get from 10% to 90%.

However, it's how we get there is what I am trying to grasp. Michaels's post appears to be stating that raising the gamma setting in the user menu is not the way to go as others have suggested because the user menu setting is somewhat accurate, but you need a very small window to get the reading. Using a 10% window will give you a lower than actual reading and then making adjustments with gamma ire may give you the flat line but you are not calibrating to the gamma measurement that you think that you are.

Example:
1. You set the picture mode gamma to 2.2 in the display.
2. You test your gamma and it is showing 1.9
3. You go into the menu and change the gamma setting to 2.4 in the display.
4. You test gamma again and now it's showing 2.2.

You think you are good because you have the result you were looking for, but you really don't because you are calibrating with 10% windows. If you were to run the same gamma test with much smaller windows, the result would be closer to the actual gamma setting that you selected in your display.

Is this correct or am I misunderstanding what Michael is stating in post #9?
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post #100 of 323 Old 12-07-2012, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Stevens View Post

Understood, so we want as flat a line as we can get from 10% to 90%.
However, it's how we get there is what I am trying to grasp. Michaels's post appears to be stating that raising the gamma setting in the user menu is not the way to go as others have suggested because the user menu setting is somewhat accurate, but you need a very small window to get the reading. Using a 10% window will give you a lower than actual reading and then making adjustments with gamma ire may give you the flat line but you are not calibrating to the gamma measurement that you think that you are.
Example:
1. You set the picture mode gamma to 2.2 in the display.
2. You test your gamma and it is showing 1.9
3. You go into the menu and change the gamma setting to 2.4 in the display.
4. You test gamma again and now it's showing 2.2.
You think you are good because you have the result you were looking for, but you really don't because you are calibrating with 10% windows. If you were to run the same gamma test with much smaller windows, the result would be closer to the actual gamma setting that you selected in your display.
Is this correct or am I misunderstanding what Michael is stating in post #9?

Well so far on my VT30 every pattern I've tried so far including the ones on both the Avs and GCD give a magenta and green tinge to the white balance (used clouds, snow, grayscale steps, etc) even though the calibration report states its perfect. So given the particular difficulty with these displays and a general lack of any real insight as to how the pros obtain a good result, I used an unorthodox method by calibrating a 'white' grayscale step pattern. Got a perfect 2.2 gamma and good whites finally.

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post #101 of 323 Old 12-07-2012, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Well so far on my VT30 every pattern I've tried so far including the ones on both the Avs and GCD give a magenta and green tinge to the white balance (used clouds, snow, grayscale steps, etc) even though the calibration report states its perfect. So given the particular difficulty with these displays and a general lack of any real insight as to how the pros obtain a good result, I used an unorthodox method by calibrating a 'white' grayscale step pattern. Got a perfect 2.2 gamma and good whites finally.

I skimmed over this thread and I didn't see you mention what meter you are using.. Just curious as some of the older low end meters drift a lot and cause this type of issue.
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post #102 of 323 Old 12-07-2012, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I skimmed over this thread and I didn't see you mention what meter you are using.. Just curious as some of the older low end meters drift a lot and cause this type of issue.

Indeed they do!
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post #103 of 323 Old 12-07-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Indeed they do!
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That's what I thought I had remembered.. but sometimes you gota go back and check the basics.. Hope you get it figure out..
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post #104 of 323 Old 12-07-2012, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

That's what I thought I had remembered.. but sometimes you gota go back and check the basics.. Hope you get it figure out..

Just redid a profile, was way different from previous one! Uninstalled Calman 5, reinstalled, new profile which seemed normal again, performed a calibration with the small Apl, a definite improvement I must say. Will have time to do some more work on Sunday but seems good.

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post #105 of 323 Old 12-08-2012, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

I used an unorthodox method by calibrating a 'white' grayscale step pattern. Got a perfect 2.2 gamma and good whites finally.

Interesting, where did you get the pattern and what size windows did you use?
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post #106 of 323 Old 12-08-2012, 09:47 AM
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He said it above AVSHD790 and GCD discs. Small APL patterns
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post #107 of 323 Old 12-08-2012, 10:04 AM
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'SillySally' has reported good results using the approach we suggested using a grey ramp to set the probe distance from the screen and set the patch size.
We don't use APL patterns as they distort the ABL in a way that is not replicated with normal image scenes.

Worth a look/try...

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post #108 of 323 Old 12-08-2012, 12:56 PM
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The GCD disc has 1% windows so I am guessing that's what he used. You do get different reading with 10% windows reading a lower gamma and the 1% being about the same as whatever you have the display set to. I question whether you would use the 1% windows for a full calibration, I imagine you may run into issues with meter distance especially with plasma.
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post #109 of 323 Old 12-09-2012, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by H Stevens View Post

Interesting, where did you get the pattern and what size windows did you use?

to finally achieve something along the right lines of a calibration for my VT30 i used the small APL windows on the AVSHD disk. The 1% APL's on the GCD are not accurate and will give you a skewed picture.

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post #110 of 323 Old 12-09-2012, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

It is true that accurate plasmas calibration is all but impossible, due to ABL.
The best you can do is to gain an acceptable compromise.

There are different approaches to this, but getting the patch size correct from your particular display is critical.
Note: For Your Particular Display.
One approach is:

> Use a Grey-scale Ramp image - something like the attached.

> Then measure the overall brightness of the screen (with the probe covering all the screen - moving back and forward to get the peak reading).
> Just looking for Luma not colour readings.
> Then make a calibration patch window with 50% white and sized it to get a similar Luma reading with the probe in the same place.
> Use that patch size for the profiling (moving the probe to the correct distance for the patch size).

Also, the best results are often with a Quick Profile, not a full 3D cube profile.
Steve

Havent tried this yet but will. Will post results.

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post #111 of 323 Old 12-09-2012, 01:00 PM
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I would also like to try this, but how do I make my own patterns?
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post #112 of 323 Old 12-09-2012, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

I would also like to try this, but how do I make my own patterns?

You need photoshop i believe - perhaps GIMP?

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post #113 of 323 Old 12-10-2012, 05:15 AM
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Here are the patterns for those interested.

Here is one using PC levels 0 to 255 graduant.jpg 313k .jpg file

and one with Video levels 16 to 235 graduant.jpg 310k .jpg file



Next step for most of us is to figure out if the large or small window patterns (or something inbetween) works best.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 0 to 255 graduant.jpg (312.8 KB, 49 views)
File Type: jpg 16 to 235 graduant.jpg (309.6 KB, 63 views)

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post #114 of 323 Old 12-10-2012, 05:28 AM
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MichealLTV mentioned in a previous post in this thread that Panasonic and THX used a 6x5 window patterns for the 2011 panasonics.

JimP could you please photoshop a 30% and 80% ire 6 x 5 window pattern like THX uses to see how it would work....Thanks

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post #115 of 323 Old 12-10-2012, 05:38 AM
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Peter,

I'll be glad to when I get back this evening.

What unit of measure is the 6X5 window pattern suppose to be?

Think a 50% window would be handy also to verify for us OCD types. smile.gif

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post #116 of 323 Old 12-10-2012, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Next step for most of us is to figure out if the large or small window patterns (or something inbetween) works best.

That's the million dollar question, specifically relating to plasma. 10% seems to be the consensus, but there is a discrepancy with how accurate the gamma number is. As stated, MichaelTV mentioned that 6.5% window pattern provided an accurate number and the larger you went with window size, the lower the gamma reading. Good luck.
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post #117 of 323 Old 12-10-2012, 06:05 AM
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JimP, I know you have the 65vt50 too, if and when you figure out the right size, let me know! wink.gif. I'll be too bussy getting to know my radiance mini the next couple of weeks biggrin.gif
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post #118 of 323 Old 12-10-2012, 06:06 AM
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Was that 6.5% window for a particular brand/model plasma? I'm specifically interested in my Panasonic 65VT50.

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post #119 of 323 Old 12-10-2012, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Was that 6.5% window for a particular brand/model plasma? I'm specifically interested in my Panasonic 65VT50.

Panny GT30/VT30 and possibly the newer 50 series...Micheal can probably answer this better though.

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post #120 of 323 Old 12-10-2012, 07:23 AM
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That's correct, I believe he was referring to the 2011 models and he may have been referring to the THX modes specifically. Here is his statement:


"Greetings

Peter,

The THX mode gamma is based on test patterns in the 6.5% size. The larger your test patterns, the lower the gamma number becomes.

I did a run with boxes in the 20% size range ... and got 2.07 range gamma. Then for fun, I went to a 10% window size and the gamma went to 2.16 range.

The test patterns you use matter. No sense killing yourself over this gamma number. It actually is where it is supposed to be.

regards"
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