Colorimeter / Spectro Combos - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 19 Old 11-27-2012, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Hi All,

I currently have an i1D3 and an i1pro, which I use to profile the i1D3.


I'm looking into buying a better colorimeter: I want to improve in repeatability and low light handling.

As examples, basICColor Discus or the Klein K-10 A appear to be great solutions, although the Klein is very expensive.

Theoretically, if I purchase the Klein, would it still benefit from being profiled to the i1Pro ? Does ANY colorimeter - no matter which price class - benefit from profiling to a spectro ?

In my understanding yes, the i1pro reading at 10nm still sees much more data, but I'm wondering whether it would be less accurate on a display type, where the filters of the Klein are very accurate - maybe more accurate than the data the i1Pro reads...

On top of that, one does never know how accurate a spectro actually is, since it is used as the reference and has no reference itself...

Any input on this and recommendations regarding a better colorimeter than the i1D3 are welcome !


Thanks.

- M

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

meter: Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Iron Mike is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 19 Old 11-27-2012, 08:16 AM
 
BobL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 53
I'd consider a spectro like the jeti specbos 1211 for not too much more money over the Klein. All colorimeters benefit from profiling and at this price range I'd spend a little more and get a reference spectro like the Jeti. Unless you can find the Klein at a steep discount.
BobL is offline  
post #3 of 19 Old 11-27-2012, 08:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Chad B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Piqua, OH
Posts: 2,069
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 349
I can verify that the Jeti 1211 has excellent/superb repeatability, as long as the sync settings are right.
It can read anything from 5% on up with flat panels (and sometimes black, if the display has a high black level).
With front PJs it can read everything from 10% on up with ease, and some times 5%, all with great repeatability. Response is slow at the very lowest levels, though.

ISF/THX calibrator, HDTVbyChadB
Jeti 1211

Latest reviews:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Chad B is offline  
post #4 of 19 Old 11-27-2012, 08:54 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 15,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked: 191
Keep in mind that you'll probably have to upgrade your calibration software license and the additional cost that involved.

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
JimP is online now  
post #5 of 19 Old 11-27-2012, 10:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
Posts: 4,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 88
you may want to pm buzzard767, he has a Klein K-10 and i1Pro which I believe he profiles against on each display..

Need to find a Professional Calibrator?
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
me with your Display & City


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

ControlCAL™
Designed by Calibrators for Calibrators™

No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

turbe is offline  
post #6 of 19 Old 11-27-2012, 01:24 PM
Senior Member
 
<^..^>Smokey Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 48
I have the Jeti 1211, and also have noticed similar to Chad's observations. You get similar results with the Photo research aswell, Models like the PR655,670 are of similar standard. The Jeti arguallby sits between the 655 and 670 in both performance and price, although the jeti has some features which are better than the PR670 and conversly the PR670 has some features which are better than the Jeti.

The Klein probes are by all accounts very good (never used one myself), but then again the i1D3 is also very good for the price point, of course the Klien can detect a couple of decimals lower. Although there is a caution with detection verse meaningful rersult.

You can make a colourmeter report very accurate results if the light source and meter are calibrated as a pair. This is the catch, to calibrate accurately you need a device to describe the source(light), hence the profiling with an i1pro. So although a Klein can detect far lower than a i1pro or the majority of any field spectro(radio)meters such as the jeti1211, PR655, PR670, in the end to improve the accuracy you need a more accurate spectro device.

However, the Klein is by all accounts very accurate and arguablly the best colourmeter in the market, and don't forget Spectracal create light source tables for their colourmeters they sell, created by the CS2000 spectroradiometer. In this case field profiling with an i1pro could cause inaccuracy due to i1pro device variability and limits.

Notes:
The Jeti1211 is a Spectroradiometer because it can measure from 350nm~1000nm, it uses a 2024 CCD pixel array,
The PR655,PR670,PR680 are Spectrometers because they measure 380nm~780nm, the 655 is a128 diode device the others 256 diodes.
Each type has it's pro's, cons and limits and special use application.
Spectros of this level are calibrated to a NIST traceable light source, which means they can measure all light if detectable within their measurement range and are independant of light sources such as DTV's.

Key meter difference, Spectros describe light, colourmeters report XYZ and luminance only based upon the colour matching function used, their key limitation is accuracy of their RGB filters.

Finally, I'd have to question the value for money of a home user purchasing high end meters, either the Klein or Spectrometers. The performance return verse cost is in reality hard to justify unless you have an absolute requirement for it and hence why devices like these are for professionals only. For the home user, it would be more logical and cost effective to hire a pro with a hi end device to confirm/improve on your readings than to purchase hi end equipment.
FWIW the i1D3 and i1pro are a powerful combination already, where the i1D3 is such a step up on what was available to the home user from a few years ago.

Masterpiece Calibration Ltd
Christchurch NZ
<^..^>Smokey Joe is offline  
post #7 of 19 Old 11-27-2012, 10:49 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
SierraMikeBravo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 1,460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 40
You may wish to consider the C6 from Spectracal. While it shares the same body as its brethren, my understanding is that is completely different internally. For the home user, a C6 profiled to an i1 pro it is just fine. Not many pros have made the leap into high end meters. Very expensive and expensive to maintain. I use the CS200...a spectro in its own right (although classified as a colorimeter...it really isn't in operation). Cost to calibrate the unit...about a thousand bucks. Ouch!!

Shawn Byrne
Erskine Group
CEDIA Certified Professional EST II - HAA Level III Certified -THX Certified Professional


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SierraMikeBravo is offline  
post #8 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 02:07 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post

You may wish to consider the C6 from Spectracal. While it shares the same body as its brethren, my understanding is that is completely different internally. For the home user, a C6 profiled to an i1 pro it is just fine. Not many pros have made the leap into high end meters. Very expensive and expensive to maintain. I use the CS200...a spectro in its own right (although classified as a colorimeter...it really isn't in operation). Cost to calibrate the unit...about a thousand bucks. Ouch!!

is the C6 the revised i1D3 ? I think they just upload additional tables to meter, I don't think they modify the hardware... or do they ? rolleyes.gif

yeah, it seems from all answers here, best bet is to get a decent colorimeter with great repeatability (--> that's why I thought about the basICColor Discus, 1/4th of the price of the Klein K-10 A and great repeatability) and then get a high-end spectro you use to profile the meter...

the repeatability of the i1D3 is getting on my nerves...

- M

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

meter: Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Iron Mike is offline  
post #9 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 04:01 AM
 
BobL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 53
iD3 is OEM = Spectracal C6 = Chromapure Display 3. The latter two have offset tables for those that don't have a spectro. A good option for a home enthusiast that doesn't want to spend the extra for a spectro to profile.

Are you having trouble with the repeatability of the iD3? Just curious as I haven't run into that.
BobL is offline  
post #10 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 04:50 AM
Senior Member
 
venkatesh_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Penang, Malaysia
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I use the Jeti 1201 and the Klein K-10 (currently being upgraded to K-10A)

Great combo in my mind. The Jeti 1201 is not as fast as the Jeti 1211 and cannot read as low as the 1211 but its repeatable when given enuf light.

The K-10 is great for low light situations especially for projectors, more so doing 3D cals. The one thing I like and does not get mentioned enuf especially for projector cals is the aiming lights that gives u a clear idea on where u r measuring.

I profile the K-10 to the Jeti nearly all the time, except the rare times that the profile does not match the Jeti.

The K-10 is a step up from the C5 for me as its very repeatable even for low light readings.

But they add up, sending the meters for recert and recal (especially the Jeti), and as I am not a full time pro, hard to justify at times.
venkatesh_m is online now  
post #11 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 05:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 3,713
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

iD3 is OEM = Spectracal C6 = Chromapure Display 3. The latter two have offset tables for those that don't have a spectro. A good option for a home enthusiast that doesn't want to spend the extra for a spectro to profile.
Are you having trouble with the repeatability of the iD3? Just curious as I haven't run into that.

That meter series sometimes gives bogus readings in the 20-40% luminance range. It's no big deal if you are manually calibrating as the error stands out like a sore thumb and the remedy is simply to remeasure that point. However, if you're doing autocal work with a Radiance or Duo the error probably would never be spotted.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
buzzard767 is offline  
post #12 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Are you having trouble with the repeatability of the iD3? Just curious as I haven't run into that.

for whatever reason my i1D3 retail needs some "warm up" time... not sure why... Jim P has the same issue... the display is warmed up but the meter returns different readings until it "settles in"... then, reading the same patch in a continuous loop always returns different results, most of the times pretty close to each other, but still...

IMO every little bit adds up... my spectro (i1Pro, used for profiling) although like new, is not dead on in the first place - then the i1D3 colorimeter (used for all measurements) is somewhat unstable - then the guesswork of (some of) the LUT algorithms out there - this altogether adds up for some inaccuracy...

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

meter: Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Iron Mike is offline  
post #13 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 11:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 3,713
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

for whatever reason my i1D3 retail needs some "warm up" time... not sure why... Jim P has the same issue... the display is warmed up but the meter returns different readings until it "settles in"... then, reading the same patch in a continuous loop always returns different results, most of the times pretty close to each other, but still...
IMO every little bit adds up... my spectro (i1Pro, used for profiling) although like new, is not dead on in the first place - then the i1D3 colorimeter (used for all measurements) is somewhat unstable - then the guesswork of (some of) the LUT algorithms out there - this altogether adds up for some inaccuracy...

and then there's..... patterns

Fresh measured today with K10-A through Klein K Colorimeter.exe software

Accupel patterns used for reference only but it's difficult to tell if they are truly reference. The rest of the patterns are Calman, Chromapure, and LightSpace internals, and Lumagen Radiance and DVDO iScan Duo externals.

Red 100%
x deviation
cm .008
cp .005
ls .008
lumagen .006
iScan Duo .007

y deviation
cm.002
cp .001
ls .002
lumagen .001
iScan Duo .003

White 100%
x deviation
cm, cp, & ls all .005
Lumagen .009
iScan Duo -.001

y deviation
cm, cp, & ls all .007
lumagen .002
iScan Duo .001

I think it's fair to say that we can get close but we don't know how close, or how far away as there are too many variables.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
buzzard767 is offline  
post #14 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 11:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
Posts: 4,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Accupel patterns used for reference only but it's difficult to tell if they are truly reference. .

The Accupel 5000 output is reference and this has been independently verified with the proper test equipment.. I'd put my faith in it over the rest listed above

Greg Rogers (AVS Member gregr), the one behind Accupel has been doing this for along time.

Need to find a Professional Calibrator?
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
me with your Display & City


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

ControlCAL™
Designed by Calibrators for Calibrators™

No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

turbe is offline  
post #15 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 12:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
Smackrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Posts: 893
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

The Accupel 5000 output is reference and this has been independently verified with the proper test equipment.. I'd put my faith in it over the rest listed above
Greg Rogers (AVS Member gregr), the one behind Accupel has been doing this for along time.

I put the AccuPel 5000 on the QuantumData 882 this month and the values from the AccuPel 5000 are spot on accurate, so don't worry about it being incorrect.

Chris Heinonen
Senior Editor, Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Displays Editor,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Contributor,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ISF Level II Certified Calibrator,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Smackrabbit is offline  
post #16 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 12:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 3,713
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

The Accupel 5000 output is reference and this has been independently verified with the proper test equipment.. I'd put my faith in it over the rest listed above
Greg Rogers (AVS Member gregr), the one behind Accupel has been doing this for along time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

I put the AccuPel 5000 on the QuantumData 882 this month and the values from the AccuPel 5000 are spot on accurate, so don't worry about it being incorrect.

Thanks guys. I really appreciate your input. I originally bought the 5000 when Tom Huffman started carrying it and use it whenever possible.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
buzzard767 is offline  
post #17 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Iron Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Accupel 5000 doesn't support full range triplets, only 16-235, is that correct ?

calibration & profiling solutions: Lightspace, Spaceman, Calman, Argyll, ColorNavigator, basICColor
profiling & calibration workflow tools:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

meter: Klein K-10 A, i1Pro, i1D3
AVS thread:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Iron Mike is offline  
post #18 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 04:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,621
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

Accupel 5000 doesn't support full range triplets, only 16-235, is that correct ?

Depends on the firmware.

Older firmwares that is true, newer ones work correctly.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
post #19 of 19 Old 11-28-2012, 05:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
turbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
Posts: 4,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

Accupel 5000 doesn't support full range triplets, only 16-235, is that correct ?

The Accupel 5000 properly supports full triplets (support both modes - by % (0-109%) and full 10-bit RGB direct entry) - 10-bit direct entry was added about 7-9 months ago I believe.

The 5000's firmware can be upgraded in the field by the user, they recently added user-defined window surrounds...

Need to find a Professional Calibrator?
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
me with your Display & City


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

ControlCAL™
Designed by Calibrators for Calibrators™

No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

turbe is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off