Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark Blu-Ray 2nd Edition - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 748 Old 09-26-2013, 08:27 AM
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Can anyone that has this disc run the stereoscopic patterns for negative and positive depth and report back if you have or do not have any crosstalk and what device you are using. On both my Sony and my Sharp I have crosstalk on the bottom row of depths on both the pos. and neg. patterns.
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post #362 of 748 Old 09-26-2013, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by brahby View Post

Can anyone that has this disc run the stereoscopic patterns for negative and positive depth and report back if you have or do not have any crosstalk and what device you are using. On both my Sony and my Sharp I have crosstalk on the bottom row of depths on both the pos. and neg. patterns.

For what it's worth, I see at least a little crosstalk on almost all devices, and in movie theaters as well. The very best devices have minimal crosstalk that is rarely objectionable, but they all have some amount. The only 3D viewing method with zero crosstalk is one with separate views for each eye, like a stereoscope or View-Master. We do polarized digital 3D projection in my stereoscopic camera club, and there is always ghosting. Some images just show it worse than others.

My most recent 3D projector is an Acer, which was described as having "no crosstalk" in one review. Needless to say, it has crosstalk, though it's much better than my previous 3D projector, a JVC DILA. The glasses also affect crosstalk, though it's only rarely that the aftermarket glasses work better than the ones that come with the device.
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post #363 of 748 Old 09-26-2013, 08:54 PM
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I haven't done the test yet, but my Sony XBR65X900a 4K UltraHD TV, which has passive 3D technology, is reported to have virtually eliminated the crosstalk issue.  Since I am not a big 3D afficianado, I haven't paid much attention, but I intend to run the test and report back to the OP.

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post #364 of 748 Old 09-26-2013, 09:18 PM
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OK, I ran the "Depth steps positive" and the "Depth steps negative" tests. Since I am not exactly sure what crosstalk is, let me describe what I see. The first two rows are perfect. The bottom row shows the positive or negative image, but "underneath" or "behind" the images, I see a second feint image that seems to be flat, i.e. neither positive or negative. Is this crosstalk? If yes, then I see crosstalk on both tests on the bottom row.

Using a Sony XBR65X900a 4K display with passive 3D.
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post #365 of 748 Old 09-26-2013, 09:34 PM
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Austin,

On a passive display, like the sony, head position is very important. While looking at the pattern, raise and lower your head position. We also have a positioning pattern to help you find the best place to sit.
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post #366 of 748 Old 09-26-2013, 09:42 PM
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Stacy, it's pretty late here in Austin, and I'm in a relaxed position. I'll test that out tomorrow. wink.gif

Thanks for the tips!
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post #367 of 748 Old 09-26-2013, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

OK, I ran the "Depth steps positive" and the "Depth steps negative" tests. Since I am not exactly sure what crosstalk is, let me describe what I see. The first two rows are perfect. The bottom row shows the positive or negative image, but "underneath" or "behind" the images, I see a second feint image that seems to be flat, i.e. neither positive or negative. Is this crosstalk? If yes, then I see crosstalk on both tests on the bottom row.

Using a Sony XBR65X900a 4K display with passive 3D.

Thank you, that was exactly what I was looking for. My top two rows are fine too but my bottom row has an image to the left and right, not exactly behind it like yours does. Yours sounds more like a background image of what's what's in the foreground.

Also I love this disc even though I do not have the tools to utilize even probably 3/4s of it and the fact that the makers interact one on one with us gets a big thumbs up from me
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post #368 of 748 Old 09-30-2013, 12:25 PM
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My top two rows are fine too but my bottom row has an image to the left and right, not exactly behind it like yours does. Yours sounds more like a background image of what's what's in the foreground.

Have you tried moving your heard (higher or lower) to see if the bottom rows look correct? This will at least let you know if it is a head position issue or a ghosting issue.

Passive displays are not forgiving when it comes to head position. In the WSR review of the Sony UltraHD display, Bill had a similar issue that went away when his head was in the right spot.
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post #369 of 748 Old 10-01-2013, 09:59 AM
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I will certainly check that out but I do have an active set and was pretty much dead center from it. My height is something I can try adjusting to see if it makes any improvement.
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post #370 of 748 Old 10-01-2013, 10:05 AM
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This is not an issue on an active set.
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post #371 of 748 Old 10-01-2013, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

This is not an issue on an active set.

So by that you would mean if I am seeing a crosshair to the left and right of the actual crosshair on the bottom rows, I have crosstalk correct?
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post #372 of 748 Old 10-01-2013, 10:25 AM
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On an active display, yes.
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post #373 of 748 Old 10-01-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

On an active display, yes.

Thank you for your help. It looks like a call to sharp is in order
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post #374 of 748 Old 10-01-2013, 11:44 AM
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All displays have some amount of crosstalk. Its not something that can be fixed in a given display. Some displays are simply better than others. There was an LG that had > 14% crosstalk, it was like watching two images on top of each other. My VT20 Panasonic had really low amounts of crosstalk. It was different in each channel.
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post #375 of 748 Old 10-01-2013, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Austin,

On a passive display, like the sony, head position is very important. While looking at the pattern, raise and lower your head position. We also have a positioning pattern to help you find the best place to sit.

Stacy, this is to confirm that when I re-visited the two tests, I was able to completely eliminate the effect I reported earlier by simply sitting in a more upright position. Looks like I will need a child's seat for my next 3D movie! wink.gif
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post #376 of 748 Old 10-01-2013, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Stacy, this is to confirm that when I re-visited the two tests, I was able to completely eliminate the effect I reported earlier by simply sitting in a more upright position. Looks like I will need a child's seat for my next 3D movie! wink.gif

You can also just get a mount with some tilt range, and tilt the display down a few degrees until the crosstalk is minimized.
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post #377 of 748 Old 10-01-2013, 10:17 PM
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As I explore S&M version 2 further, I find I am missing what I call "task oriented" guidance.  By this, I mean I am confronted with questions such as the following (all terms pertain to my Sony equipment):

 

- What is the impact of various settings of Motion Flow?  Are there specifics tests on S&M that clearly help me select the correct setting?  Is there a correct setting (other than "off")?

- What impact on picture quality does Reality Creation have?  Reality Creation has a "Manual" option that allows me to tune several parameters.  What S&M tests show what is going on here?

- What impact do the controls like "Noise Reduction", "MPEG Noise Reduction", "Dot Noise Reduction", "Detail Enhancer", "Edge Enhancer", etc. have on PQ?  What tests on S&M would assist in determining the best setting for these controls?

 

So far, I have found the S&M disk invaluable in setting brightness, contrast, color, hue, and sharpness.  Used in conjunction with CalMAN and a colorimeter, my display is looking quite good.  A number of the other tests on S&M show me how well my electronics are performing, but in most cases I can't improve the electronics.  These tests either make me feel good, or make me depressed.

 

So, what is missing is some way of setting all of those other controls that I listed above.  Any guidance?

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post #378 of 748 Old 10-02-2013, 10:02 AM
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- What is the impact of various settings of Motion Flow? Are there specifics tests on S&M that clearly help me select the correct setting? Is there a correct setting (other than "off")?

The video processing -> motion section will show you what motion flow does. If your goal is to re-create what the film makers intended, then off is the most likely setting you want to use. There might be a black/dark frame insertion mode which would be great, but you lose a lot of contrast with it.
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- What impact on picture quality does Reality Creation have? Reality Creation has a "Manual" option that allows me to tune several parameters. What S&M tests show what is going on here?

Video processing -> Motion and possibly source / edge adaptive tests. I don't know if reality creation is simply deinterlacing, scaling, or frame rate conversion.
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- What impact do the controls like "Noise Reduction", "MPEG Noise Reduction", "Dot Noise Reduction", "Detail Enhancer", "Edge Enhancer", etc. have on PQ? What tests on S&M would assist in determining the best setting for these controls?

Our disc, and other test discs, are about re-creating what the film maker intended. We suggest turning all of this processing off for the best possible picture on Blu-ray. Most of these are included for marketing bullet points. Noise reduction can remove noise from an image, but it also often removes non-noise as well, such as detail. Edge enhancement adjusts the contrast between edges and makes things appear sharper, but it is false detail. Some algorithms are smarter than others. We turn all of these off on our displays.

A lot of tests on the disc are for evaluation. Its what reviewers use to rate displays. Not everything can be fixed. They are great tools when you are shopping around for a new display. Not every display passes every tests. We call it a benchmark for a reason. smile.gif
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post #379 of 748 Old 10-02-2013, 10:42 AM
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Just to add to what Stacey said, you might also look at the scaling and sharpness patterns while adjusting the DRC (Digital Reality Creation) parameters. DRC has been in the past basically a combination scaler/deinterlacer with maybe some noise reduction thrown in. Having it all the way off might not be the best choice if you are watching interlaced content and don't have an outboard deinterlacer.

If you look at our article about choosing a color space, the same basic principles apply to looking at any setting on your display. You just expand your search space. smile.gif We've spent hours running through patterns while turning on and off various settings on different TVs, trying to figure out what the setting does. Sadly, Sony is one of the worst at using fanciful names for their settings. Instead of having a "deinterlacing" setting or maybe "film recreation" or "film mode" or something like that, they call it "Digital Reality Creation." It's great as a marketing tool, but it's not helpful if you're trying to figure out what it's doing.

Their documentation and FAQs are no better. Here's what it says on one Sony site about DRC:

"Adjusts detail and noise for a realistic picture. Below settings are available:

1.Auto: Automatically adjusts the effect of Reality Creation.
2.Manual: Changeable detail and noise effects.
3.Off: Turns off Reality Creation."

So either DRC is no longer the deinterlacing controls, or their tech support has no idea what it does.

One basic rule of thumb: if a setting on a TV has the word "enhance" or any variation like "enhancement," "enhancer," etc. you should turn it off immediately. We have never seen an enhancer that actually makes the picture look more like it is supposed to. Many of them make the picture look sharper or more colorful, but more so than the original material. If you want the most eye-popping picture that practically screams "look at me" you should turn all the enhancement modes on. If you want what the director and cinematographer approved, you should turn them all off. Every once in a while there's an exception to this rule, but they're few and far between.
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post #380 of 748 Old 10-02-2013, 11:17 AM
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Stacy and Don, thanks for your replies. You have confirmed what I suspected. Immediately after I finished calibrating my display, I turned off all of these controls, and I was quite happy with the picture quality. Since then, I have experimented with each of the controls, trying to perceive a difference with the control off or on. In most cases, I either could not see any difference, or I was able to see an enhancement that seemed to make the picture seem more artificial, or "processed". Still, I wonder why manufacturers like Sony go to the expense of loading their sets with controls the average consumer will never understand. Perhaps you are correct, it is for the marketing value.

And thanks for making a really useful test disk available to us!
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post #381 of 748 Old 10-02-2013, 12:03 PM
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Stacy and Don:
what is your take on the darbee? good? bad or something else? I heard that oppo is releasing a new player with darbee in it. what about the seperate devices?

any thoughts would be welcome.

Jacob
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post #382 of 748 Old 10-02-2013, 12:15 PM
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I have never looked at a Darby, so I can't comment.
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post #383 of 748 Old 10-02-2013, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

I have never looked at a Darby, so I can't comment.

I understand. I would be interested if you ever get a chance.

Jacob
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post #384 of 748 Old 10-02-2013, 12:58 PM
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I once read that Darby works in RGB. My only concern on the OPPO would not being able to bypass Darby processing and a color conversion if you don't want it. I have not had a chance to ask OPPO about it yet.
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post #385 of 748 Old 10-02-2013, 01:34 PM
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I have yet to see a Darbee, but my bottom line usually is that if the makers of the movie wanted it to look like that, they would have used a Darbee in the mastering process. smile.gif

Based on the descriptions, it sounds like a local-contrast enhancer. This is a big thing in photo and video effects; Topaz for Photoshop is one of the more famous contrast enhancers. If it is something like that, those kind of algorithms definitely add snap to images. But again, you're not watching the original movie; you're watching an "enhanced" version of it. If that's what you want, go for it.
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The users of the Darblet (myself included) are overwhelmingly positive about the product. The fact that both Lumagen and Oppo have licensed the technology is a pretty good endorsement. What it does to the signal is described in their patent application and on their web site, and is not as simple as local contrast enhancement.

The Darblet comes close to "you have to see it to believe it" technology. For a very low entry price (~$300) and a liberal return policy, you could check it out yourselves. I'm just sayin'....
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post #387 of 748 Old 10-02-2013, 01:56 PM
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I have seen the demos on their website. I will be getting a 103D to test out.

I agree with Don, a technology like Darbee would be better applied in post by the filmmaker so it has the level of sharpness they intended.
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post #388 of 748 Old 10-02-2013, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post

I have yet to see a Darbee, but my bottom line usually is that if the makers of the movie wanted it to look like that, they would have used a Darbee in the mastering process. smile.gif

Please don't give them any ideas! smile.gif

Quote:
Based on the descriptions, it sounds like a local-contrast enhancer. This is a big thing in photo and video effects; Topaz for Photoshop is one of the more famous contrast enhancers. If it is something like that, those kind of algorithms definitely add snap to images. But again, you're not watching the original movie; you're watching an "enhanced" version of it. If that's what you want, go for it.

The description given here by the late Paul Darbee shed a little more light on the actual processing for me. If I'm understanding correctly it is essentially applying an unsharp mask that is being derived from the left and right components of a 3D conversion from each 2D frame.

Home Theater Geeks 135: Darbee's Vision

I've also seen it described as "using parallax disparity as the basis for luminance modulation and while selectively applying modulation based upon a fast and accurate saliency mask."
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post #389 of 748 Old 10-02-2013, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

I have seen the demos on their website. I will be getting a 103D to test out.

I agree with Don, a technology like Darbee would be better applied in post by the filmmaker so it has the level of sharpness they intended.

I'm certainly looking forward to any comments you and Don may have about the 103D, including any thoughts on the differences between the Marvell QDEO processing on the 103, vs the VRS Clearview on the 103D.

I fear that if Darbee processing is applied during the authoring of Blu-ray discs that there will be a temptation to over apply the process, just as has happened in some cases with electronic edge enhancement.
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post #390 of 748 Old 10-06-2013, 03:35 PM
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As far as I'm concerned, being a Darbee owner myself, the device is less about sharpness as it is about clarity. It's like putting the image into focus....at least that's how it works for me. You can easily overdo it, but when the settings are good, the effect is easily discernable.

Additionally, the filmmaker doesn't need to use a Darbee in post-production because the issue is not at their end. The issue is with the display the viewer has. If a device like the Darbee can bring an image into better focus so that it looks perceptibly improved on the display a viewer uses, and does not create any additional artifacts or issues, there really is no problem.

One other thing. In the vast majority of complaints I have read about the Darbee Darblet, they tend to be written by people who have never seen it in action. On the other hand, the vast majority of positive comments I have read concerning the Darbee Darblet are written by people who own one.
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