Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark Blu-Ray 2nd Edition - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 679 Old 03-27-2014, 03:31 PM
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Update: I changed the PJ HDMI input to 'Enhanced' and the contrast worked fine - I did need to set it to around -25, but could see all bars. The rest of the calibration went OK. Does anyone know if this is normal for a JVC RS46/X35?
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post #632 of 679 Old 03-28-2014, 09:45 AM
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The standard mode clips below black and above white. Enhanced remaps. What you want to use is Super White for HDMI mode. This clips at 16 (which is fine) and extends white to 255 (if that is what you want). With that model and mode the brightness and contrast should both be left at 0 or else it screws up the gamma. You may not see digital 17 though. To get digital 17 to show up go in the advanced gamma menu and select what gamma you want, then go to the white gain for level 5% and bump it up a few notches to regain digital 17.
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post #633 of 679 Old 04-04-2014, 01:27 PM
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How does the lip sync feature work? I have the disk and it's not intuitive.
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post #634 of 679 Old 04-04-2014, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Ballard View Post

How does the lip sync feature work? I have the disk and it's not intuitive.

This is a copy of the help text on the disk:
A/V Sync
This pattern is used to adjust the audio delay settings on your receiver or video processor.

Adjust the overall system delay to make the audio beep occur just as the moving box passes left to right over the center column. The top and bottom of the screen will flash at the same time.

As a cross-check, using your hands or a piece of cardboard with a small hole, block all of the screen except the number just before the zero mark. View it for a few seconds. The visible flash should appear to come before the beep. Now shift to the mark just after the zero mark, blocking out the rest of the screen. View it for a few seconds. The flash should appear to come after the beep. If either the marks before or after the zero mark seem to match the audio more closely than the zero mark itself, adjust the delay up or down to ensure that the flash at the zero mark happens closest to the audio beep.


All of the disk help text is available here:
http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/pattern-help-text/

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post #635 of 679 Old 04-04-2014, 05:30 PM
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I didn't know there was a help section. Thanks for the link. My mind still has trouble trying to sync - it moves to fast. I'll see if my wife can see the alignment. Thanks.
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post #636 of 679 Old 04-04-2014, 06:15 PM
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There is a built in help screen for each test. The manual in the disc box explains how to access it.

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post #637 of 679 Old 06-26-2014, 08:04 AM
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3D Calibration Result

I used the new disc to calibrate my Samsung PN59D6500 in 2D mode first. I couldn't adjust the contrast at any setting to get any of the bars above 247 to be visible and not clipped. There were color shifts above 90 and below 80, so I set it to 85. I chose that number based on the green bars in the Dynamic RGB pattern. Brightness calibrated well at about 58. (These seem to be normal numbers for Samsung plasmas, at least according to some reading I've done here.)

I also couldn't see any of the dark squares in the center of the color boxes, ditto for the color space evaluation pattern.

Then I switched the disc into 3D mode and put on my 3D glasses. I made a couple of adjustments to contrast, brightness and color. Voilà! All of the test patterns snapped into textbook-perfect display: all of the contrast bars except 253 were visible against the white background; the 2 below-black bars on the brightness pattern were invisible, but the checkerboard background remained faintly visible; all of the color boxes had dark squares in them, on both the contrast and color space patterns; the 709 boxes displayed perfectly.

I have no idea why or how this happens, but there it is. And I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a 3D display would calibrate better in 3D mode than in 2D mode, but I am. Doh!

Anyway -- a big thank you to S&M for putting out the 3D Calibration disc. Wow.

Cheers,
Jeff
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post #638 of 679 Old 06-26-2014, 10:07 AM
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Hi Jeff,


Thank you for the details. What you experience is actually the opposite of what I have experienced. Usually 2D calibrates well and 3D not so well. Mostly because they are trying to get as much light output as possible from 3D.


Is it possible another setting is changing the 2D output? Which player are you using for 2D?


253 is really, really difficult to see. A blinking version might help. Whenever 4k Blu-ray comes about, we will have a dynamic range high and low pattern that blinks.
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post #639 of 679 Old 06-26-2014, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Ballard
My mind still has trouble trying to sync - it moves to fast.

Put your arms straight out and use your hands to block all but one spot on the A/V sync pattern. Focus on one at a time. This should help you a bit. For the fun of it, also adjust the A/V sync setting all the way to one end and then the other and try it. This way you can see how it changes.


The original Xbox One, at launch, was 5 or 6 frames off when in 24p mode. In 60p mode, it was correct. This was fixed in January I believe. The pattern made it pretty easy to detect the large error.
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post #640 of 679 Old 06-26-2014, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Is it possible another setting is changing the 2D output? Which player are you using for 2D?
Hi Stacey,

I don't know of any settings that might be affecting the result. I use an Oppo BDP-103 as my Blu-ray player, and all of its Video | Picture settings are set to their default values.

Cheers,
Jeff
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post #641 of 679 Old 06-26-2014, 10:23 AM
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Jeff, the OPPO is fine for 2D and 3D, so its not the player. What is HDMI output set to? Auto or have you forced it to one?
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post #642 of 679 Old 06-26-2014, 10:27 AM
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It's set to Auto. I do have the HDMI 1 output of the 103 running directly to the Samsung display, so the Qdeo processing is at work there. I can check if I get the same results from HDMI 2 (no Qdeo) that runs through my Marantz SR7007; would that help?

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post #643 of 679 Old 06-26-2014, 10:39 AM
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Its possible that in auto it is using one color space for 2D and another for 3D. I would be surprised if that were the case, but you never know. Force it to 4:4:4, 4:2:2 or RGB and compare the two.


Auto is for compatibility.
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post #644 of 679 Old 06-26-2014, 10:46 AM
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Excuse my idiocy, please. I'm dealing also with audio issues between the Oppo and the Marantz, and so when you asked about the HDMI I stupidly responded with the settings for audio: Auto vs. LPCM or Bitstream.

I do have the HDMI video output forced to YCbCr4:4:4 because in 3D mode it showed very slightly better results than 4:4:2 or RGB. But I'm talking about tiny differences that I doubt I would ever notice during playback of normal content. In 2D mode, even those tiny differences vanished in the bigger issues I noted in my first post.

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post #645 of 679 Old 06-26-2014, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Put your arms straight out and use your hands to block all but one spot on the A/V sync pattern. Focus on one at a time. This should help you a bit. For the fun of it, also adjust the A/V sync setting all the way to one end and then the other and try it. This way you can see how it changes.


The original Xbox One, at launch, was 5 or 6 frames off when in 24p mode. In 60p mode, it was correct. This was fixed in January I believe. The pattern made it pretty easy to detect the large error.
I went ahead and bought the Disney WOW calibration disk and I found it much easier than Spears and Munsil for lip sync.
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post #646 of 679 Old 06-26-2014, 07:42 PM
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Hi Carl,


Can you tell us what you like about it or find easier? We would love to improve our lip sync pattern for the 4k version. It, in particular, it not something we have gotten a lot of feedback on.


This applies to anything on the disc. What works well and what does not. What is missing? We want to better integrate with Calman, and other packages, next time around. Since there are no 4k plasmas, we may drove the equal energy. Then again, they help a dynamic IRIS, so maybe not. Just thinking aloud.


We have not added any new content on our website. We started an article on deinteralcing and using the source adaptive section. I really hope we can finish it before the end of the year. 4k is progressive only, so this section won't be on the 4k disc. If you are wondering, no ETA since the format does not exist yet. We would love to ship a disc close to the launch of it. Assuming the encoding tools are ready for what we want to do. We can test 10-bit HEVC 4k today on things like the Samsung media server. At least we can prototype.


Thank you in advance,


Stacey
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post #647 of 679 Old 06-28-2014, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Hi Carl,


Can you tell us what you like about it or find easier? We would love to improve our lip sync pattern for the 4k version. It, in particular, it not something we have gotten a lot of feedback on.


This applies to anything on the disc. What works well and what does not. What is missing? We want to better integrate with Calman, and other packages, next time around. Since there are no 4k plasmas, we may drove the equal energy. Then again, they help a dynamic IRIS, so maybe not. Just thinking aloud.


We have not added any new content on our website. We started an article on deinteralcing and using the source adaptive section. I really hope we can finish it before the end of the year. 4k is progressive only, so this section won't be on the 4k disc. If you are wondering, no ETA since the format does not exist yet. We would love to ship a disc close to the launch of it. Assuming the encoding tools are ready for what we want to do. We can test 10-bit HEVC 4k today on things like the Samsung media server. At least we can prototype.


Thank you in advance,


Stacey
You responded earlier to my query about resolution test patterns, mentioning you've changed those on my gen-1 disc by adding TV lines/frequency labels to the limited selection of burst patterns and added a 'trumpet-shaped' resolution pattern to this gen-2 disc.


Hadn't heard you're preparing a 4k. But suggest expanding the range of labeled burst patterns so that anyone puzzling about higher-resolution details can measure the effective resolution of those details by measuring the detail width and comparing it to roughly equal-width bursts using a millimeter ruler or an optical loupe with a reticle. Burst increments of 20--50 TV lines perhaps.


Suspect questions about effective resolutions between 1080p and 4k formats will crop up more often as 4k and downconverted 4k productions grow. Perhaps this would attract test-disc buyers beyond those concentrating only on calibration. -- John
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post #648 of 679 Old 06-28-2014, 06:39 PM
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The TV line labels are placed at the frequencies that do not alias. We could place more. The location, and frequency, of the markers is also the same frequencies that we use on the multiburst pattern and for the same reason, no aliasing. We don't have any "trumpet-shaped" wedges. Same style wedge that is one the first disc used for the inverse telecine patterns. We just have a lot of variations for Luma and Chroma. We tried to include all chroma combinations. One might show something another might not.


4k is in the planning stages. We can generate all of our patterns at any resolution today. We don't yet have 10-bit native support. We will get that done this year. It looks like HEVC 10-main will be the primary codec. (10-bit 4:2:0) So many unknowns at this point, which includes frame rates and resolutions. Is it 3840x2160 or 4096x2160? Is it 23.976 or 24? All content is produced at 23.976, but they are talking about only supporting true 24. Studios want P3 or XYZ color space. CE companies want 2020. You would think the CE companies would listen to the studios who have said no to 2020. 2020 does not actually work. We would all see different colors and the color you see would change as you age.


Best guess is that 4k Blu-ray would be holiday 2015 at the earliest. We may see announcements at CES in 2015. Assuming they can agree on the color gamut.
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post #649 of 679 Old 06-29-2014, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
The TV line labels are placed at the frequencies that do not alias. We could place more. The location, and frequency, of the markers is also the same frequencies that we use on the multiburst pattern and for the same reason, no aliasing. We don't have any "trumpet-shaped" wedges. Same style wedge that is one the first disc used for the inverse telecine patterns. We just have a lot of variations for Luma and Chroma. We tried to include all chroma combinations. One might show something another might not.


4k is in the planning stages. We can generate all of our patterns at any resolution today. We don't yet have 10-bit native support. We will get that done this year. It looks like HEVC 10-main will be the primary codec. (10-bit 4:2:0) So many unknowns at this point, which includes frame rates and resolutions. Is it 3840x2160 or 4096x2160? Is it 23.976 or 24? All content is produced at 23.976, but they are talking about only supporting true 24. Studios want P3 or XYZ color space. CE companies want 2020. You would think the CE companies would listen to the studios who have said no to 2020. 2020 does not actually work. We would all see different colors and the color you see would change as you age.


Best guess is that 4k Blu-ray would be holiday 2015 at the earliest. We may see announcements at CES in 2015. Assuming they can agree on the color gamut.
Thanks for the details. Mentioned an aliasing problem with the two highest resolution-burst frequencies over in the Blu-ray software thread for the 1st-gen test disc. But your suggestion to try the pixel-by-pixel mode with my 65" Panny plasma stopped the aliasing completely for all bursts. To compare test-disc resolutions with program-material higher-resolution details, suggest a wide range of bursts at perhaps 20 TV-line increments covering up to 4k.


Hadn't spotted the wedge-shaped pattern you mentioned on my 1st-gen test disc. But that's what I meant by trumpet-shaped patterns (gradually converging lines). Wedges, though, seem fairly crude for pinpointing resolutions by comparisons accurately. -- John
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post #650 of 679 Old 07-04-2014, 08:56 PM
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I have a question regarding the 0% Pluge test. I notice that as the brightness control is increased, two rectangles with a checkerboard pattern appear on the left and right sides. On my display, this checkerboard pattern is visible with a brightness setting of 50, but disappears when I reduce the setting to 49. I read the test instructions provided on the disk, but it is still unclear as to whether the correct brightness setting is when the checkerboard pattern disappears, or when it just becomes visible. I would appreciate a recommendation. Thanks.
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post #651 of 679 Old 07-05-2014, 04:24 AM
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I have a question regarding the 0% Pluge test. I notice that as the brightness control is increased, two rectangles with a checkerboard pattern appear on the left and right sides. On my display, this checkerboard pattern is visible with a brightness setting of 50, but disappears when I reduce the setting to 49. I read the test instructions provided on the disk, but it is still unclear as to whether the correct brightness setting is when the checkerboard pattern disappears, or when it just becomes visible. I would appreciate a recommendation. Thanks.
Are the 2 darkest rectangles on the left still visible at your brightness setting of 50? If so, continue lowering the brightness until they just disappear. If not, then I would leave the brightness set to just barely show the checkerboard pattern.

Once you've set the brightness, go back and verify that your contrast setting is still correct. You may have to go back and forth between brightness and contrast to fine tune the settings because of the way those 2 controls interact.

Cheers,
Jeff
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post #652 of 679 Old 07-05-2014, 06:45 AM
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Hi Jerry,
The checkerboard is made from digital level 16 & 17 squares, and was primarily intended for some projectors where the pixel dithering can be observed using this part of the pattern. Digital level 17 should be almost impossible to see when the screen is correctly set (being able to observe it easily would almost guarantee that the brightness was TOO HIGH, and blacks -16- were being elevated).
Hopefully Stacey will give the fully correct answer in due course.
Regards, Mike.
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post #653 of 679 Old 07-05-2014, 07:53 AM
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Stacey I assume you would highly recommend not using the RGB full on Xbox one, correct? I used the clipping text pattern and I see nothing but solid color squares. Is it the Xbox One BluRay app that causes the problem? Would it be safe to play games in RGB full or will that get crushed as well?


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post #654 of 679 Old 07-05-2014, 05:24 PM
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Hi Jerry,


As others have pointed out, the checker is not the primary focus on the pattern. It was intended for DLPs. The 16 squares, which is black in video, should have no dither while the 17 squares should have dither on DLP.


The most important thing is the left two bars (-4% and -2%) should blend in with the background while the right bars (+2 and +4) should be visible.


The visibility of the checkerboard will be dependent on the gamma of the display and how fine/coarse the brightness control is. The lower the gamma value, the easier it will be to see the checkerboard because you are coming out of black faster. The higher the gamma value, the more difficult it will be to see because you are coming out of black slower. So a gamma of 2.2 will make the checkerboard easier to see than a gamma of 2.4. Again, don't focus on the checker unless you have a DLP. The checker will be almost impossible to see on the other PLUGE patterns because of the higher APL and light bouncing around.
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post #655 of 679 Old 07-05-2014, 05:34 PM
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As to the Xbox question. The HDMI output setting of TV and PC sets the black and white points. TV is 16, 235 with full head and to room preserved. PC is 0, 255. In this case video will be expanded from 16, 235 to 0, 255 and everything below 16 and above 235 in the original signal will be clipped. On the 360 this was called Standard and Expanded.

Most HDMI devices have this option. I don't like the names limited and expanded as it sounds like you are losing out on video when using limited. The names were taken from the HDMI spec. I am trying to get the names changed on the Xbox One.


As to games, that is dependent on the game. For games that are developed 0, 255, then TV will remap them to 16, 235. There is an API for the game developer so they can specify if they developed the game for 16, 235 or 0, 255. Most games are 0, 255 at this point. There was an issue with Killer Instinct where they implemented this in reverse and you can imagine it was busted. They issued a tile update a while back and it should work correctly. There are other games that have not done this yet. They need to do it.


If you wanted the best of both worlds, you would use TV for video content and PC for games. This would require two different display settings so brightness and contrast would be correct for both. This would mean you would have to switch between the two outputs as you switched between video content and games. The problem gets worse when you have video inside of a game.


I know there is some confusion on boards where people have some displays that claim they support RGB Full and so they switch the Xbox One to PC (Full range) and they are mad because things don't look correct.


This is not a new problem. Computers have always been 0, 255 while video has always been 16, 235. This was always a challenge on Windows and there is no perfect solution today. If you watch content in WMP or Xbox Video, you would get 16, 235 converted into 0, 255. If you used Media Center, it would behave like a CE device and video would be 16, 235. Every time I say 16, 235, assume I mean 1-254 is intact with black and white points being 16, 235. If you use the QT player on Windows, it also plays back at 16, 235. This is why the same MP4 will look washed out in QT player and not in WMP.


I hope all of this makes sense. If not, let me know and I will try and clarify. Typing this on a Surface Pro 3, so please excuse any typos as I am still getting comfortable with the keyboard.
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Stacey, thanks for the thorough explanation. If you don't mind me asking,
how would you rename RGB limited & full on Xbox One?
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post #657 of 679 Old 07-06-2014, 09:20 AM
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I prefer the terms Video Levels and PC Levels. In the past Microsoft has used Studio RGB and RGB.
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post #658 of 679 Old 07-14-2014, 05:31 AM
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I am currently in a discussion with a fellow AVS member regarding some rather different values we are arriving at for the Color and Hue settings on our identical displays. When he asked me how I was arriving at my settings, I told him that I use the blue-filter tests on the S&M version 2 Blu-ray. His response was: "The blue filter method is a relic from the CRT days, so that folks without colour testing gear could try and approximate what the correct colour was supposed to be. But if you have calibration gear then it's completely unnecessary, because you've got a totally objective means of setting the colour, as opposed to the subjective (it's relying on your eyes' sensitivity to colour) blue filter method. If you're setting colour by eye, you're throwing your calibration out of the window."

Is his claim true? if so, what alternative methods would there be to set color that would be significantly more accurate than the S&M test I am using? The only calibration gear I have is a colorimeter that I use with CalMan.
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post #659 of 679 Old 07-14-2014, 07:59 AM
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I have re-read the excellent documentation "Setting Color and Tint". To add more information to my previous post, I am setting color and tint on a Sony display, and Sony displays don't have a CMS, nor do they have a "blue only" setting. The other controls are set as follows:

Video color space (Auto, Normal, x.v.Color) = Auto
Color Matrix (Auto, Custom ITU709 for all resolutions > 480p) = Auto
Dynamic Range (Auto, Limited, Full) = Auto
Color Temp = Warm2 (measures 6458K)
Gamma (measures ~2.2)
Clear White (emphasizes white levels) = Off
Live Color (emphasizes "vividness" of colors) = Off
White Balance (gain and bias settings for RGB) - optimized using colorimeter and CalMAN software

When I run the color and tint test screen on the S&M ver 2 disk, the first thing I notice is that I cannot get the red, yellow and green bars on the left to turn completely black, even using the 3x filter. The red bar is black, but the yellow and green bars are not.

In your guide you say if the bars don't turn completely black, "you might consider contacting a professional calibrator, who may be able to calibrate color and tint (among other things) using a spectroradiometer or colorimeter."

Since I have a colorimeter, can you recommend where I might find instructions on how to use it to calibrate color and tint?
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post #660 of 679 Old 07-14-2014, 10:48 AM
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If the test fails by not completely blacking out the other colors, then the blue filter won't work. We did not originally include a blue filter with the first disc until people complained. We left it out because they are not reliable as you have found.


I would contact SpectraCal, they should be able to provide instructions on setting color and tint using calman. You can then use the equal energy windows patterns or the equal energy color patterns. Its a matter of measuring. I will speak with Don about writing up some instructions on the subject. Seems like a great idea!
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