Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark Blu-Ray 2nd Edition - Page 24 - AVS Forum
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post #691 of 735 Old 07-30-2014, 07:05 PM
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Hey Stacey I just noticed that the Xbox One now has TV and PC for color space.
No more limited and full. Nice going that change was quick!

Thanks again to you and Don for answering all of our questions!!!
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post #692 of 735 Old 07-31-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Or at least an advanced tutorial.


The doc will be more what and why. Not so much in the how.


What types of advanced videos or articles would you like to see?
The "what and why" sounds great! I regret if my posting sounded like I need a tutorial of "how" to do this. Thanks for following up on this.
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post #693 of 735 Old 07-31-2014, 02:28 PM
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I just assumed you would like some more in-depth information on existing patterns.
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post #694 of 735 Old 08-02-2014, 09:36 PM
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In my most recent post, I expressed concern that even with the blue color filter set to 3X, I was not able to achieve complete black bars on the left side of the Color/Tint test screen. This led to an interesting discussion as to whether the Blue Filter Test was valid on my display. Since then, I have been researching methods to set color and tint using a colorimeter, bypassing the Blue Filter Test. I found this procedure in the Spectracal Users' Forum:

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________

Setting Color/Tint

The standard method for doing this involves looking at a SMPTE color bar test pattern through a blue filter. This method has 2 drawbacks. First, at best it is an approximation of the correct setting. Second, and more importantly, for some displays it simply does NOT work. On some plasmas in particular I have noticed that this method will recommend a grossly inaccurate setting. Here's a foolproof method for setting Color/Tint that does not use filters.

Color

Point the colorimeter or light meter towards the screen and display a 100% white test pattern.
Measure the Y value (luminance) of white.
Display a 100% Red test pattern, and measure the Y value here as well.
You will notice that as you move the Color control up and down, the Y value of Red increases and decreases, but white stays the same.
Set the color control at the point where Red measures closest to 21% of the white reading.

Note: It is not really important whether you use 75% or 100% patterns in this test, so long as you use the SAME level of intensity for both.

Tint

If you have not already done so, adjust the gray scale and get it as close to D65 (x=0.3127, y=0.329) across the entire range as possible.
Point the colorimeter towards the screen and display a cyan test pattern.
Put the Tint control at its neutral mid setting.
Use the software controls to plot cyan on a CIE chart.
Adjust Tint up or down until the reading places the hue of cyan as close to the target on the CIE chart as possible (it is useful if the software has a continuous reading mode, so you can see changes you make to Tint in real time).
If you had to substantially adjust Tint from the neutral point to get an accurate hue of cyan, then check the other secondaries. You may have to select another setting that gets all 3 secondaries as close to correct hues as possible.

__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________

I tried this procedure this evening, and it resulted in a slightly lower color setting (52 vs. 55), but no difference for tint (which is right in the middle). While the difference in the color setting is small, I always felt that 55 was a bit high. The tint setting on Sony displays is usually pretty good at its factory default, so no surprise there.

Anyone care to comment on the procedure from the Spectracal forum?
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post #695 of 735 Old 08-02-2014, 09:43 PM
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Tint should almost never need adjusting. Normal SMPTE color bars will show a visual error on tint and that is an error in the pattern itself. Or at least the math to convert between YCbCr back into RGB. Its an inherent rounding issue in the BT.709 matrix math. One color rounds up and the other rounds down so you end up with one at 179 and one at 181. I don't believe this error occurs with BT.601 color bars. Our new color bar pattern does not have this error on tint. And our SMPTE style color bars pattern uses dither, so you will not see the error. Our SMPTE style color bars under the measurement section does have this error because it does not use dither. This is an issue with all 75% BT.709 color bar patterns. Our new color bars are greater than 75% and less than 100%. We did this so that it would be easier to see if you are using the 3x filter and we picked a value that did not have the rounding problem.
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post #696 of 735 Old 08-02-2014, 09:46 PM
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post #697 of 735 Old 08-03-2014, 10:00 AM
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I have never tried it, so I don't know. Assuming it came from someone at SpectraCal, it is probably correct. My display has a blue-only mode and both color and tint are correct by default.


Also as Don mentioned, having a color decoder that is not accurate will lead to odd results.
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post #698 of 735 Old 08-03-2014, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
I have never tried it, so I don't know. Assuming it came from someone at SpectraCal, it is probably correct. My display has a blue-only mode and both color and tint are correct by default.

Actually, to my knowledge, this idea first appeared in an AVSForum thread from Tom Huffman, creator of ChromaPure (credit where credit is due). The Link appears below.

Basic Guide to Color Calibration using a CMS (updated and enhanced)
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post #699 of 735 Old 08-03-2014, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post
Actually, to my knowledge, this idea first appeared in an AVSForum thread from Tom Huffman, creator of ChromaPure (credit where credit is due). The Link appears below.

Basic Guide to Color Calibration using a CMS (updated and enhanced)
Thanks for pointing out the original author of the procedure, and my apologies for not recognizing that this was Tom's method.
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post #700 of 735 Old 08-07-2014, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Or at least an advanced tutorial.


The doc will be more what and why. Not so much in the how.


What types of advanced videos or articles would you like to see?
Here, like to see comments and perhaps measurements from the several video experts planned for interviews (previous page post), or others, about how they feel effective or visual resolution of movies have increased in many theaters from projected print film. Believe Joe Kane, some time back, equated 35 mm projection to roughly 720p resolution. And consultant Matt Cowan's analysis of ITU's world-wide in-theater testing ( see sub-links ) seems to confirm that estimate.


Perhaps, instead of two years off, the 4k calibration/test disc discussed earlier above could illustrate whether it's feasible and how to measure effective resolutions from 1080p, 1080i, or 4k sources at home. Tried that for a 4k-DI Blu-ray last week, using the luma multiburst calibration-disc patterns, but not sure of the results ( 1st-edition disc forum post) . Measured 5 frequency-burst line widths on my 65" 1080p plasma, then measured fine details from the Blu-ray movie and a DVRed 1080i golf broadcast and compared the line widths. It's still fuzzy if that's valid, even "normalizing" (from per picture height multiburst readings) with the aspect-ratio multipliers from the two image sources. -- John

Last edited by John Mason; 08-08-2014 at 05:14 AM. Reason: typo
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post #701 of 735 Old 08-07-2014, 09:56 AM
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If I were going to try and measure the resolution of content, I would do it on the content itself. Rip it off the disc and keep it in its native 4:2:0 format. Then perform an analysis on Y as well as CbCr and then possibly convert to RGB and measure again.
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post #702 of 735 Old 08-07-2014, 09:56 AM
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I think asking each interviewee about effective source resolution is a good idea. It was not on my list. I will add it.
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post #703 of 735 Old 08-07-2014, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
If I were going to try and measure the resolution of content, I would do it on the content itself. Rip it off the disc and keep it in its native 4:2:0 format. Then perform an analysis on Y as well as CbCr and then possibly convert to RGB and measure again.
Thanks, Stacey. This approach seems akin to the free-software spectrum analysis post from dr1394 some 9 years back. The follow-on post shows the stadium-crowd scene frame he analyzed by computer.


My interest, though, is determining the effective resolution of specific details within frames--details that give split-second clues to the eye that you're seeing maximum resolutions; not--as an aside--boosted sharpness, which AIUI is greater contrast between coarse details within a scene or frame.


Obviously different details will catch the attention of different viewers. I used the content of the 4k-DI Blu-ray "The Tree of Life" as it appears on my viewing setup, without computer signal processing. But, hey, if there's software for my semi-ancient Dell desktop that'll scan a Blu-ray file for frames with maximum resolution, store the frame numbers, display the frame images, then let me cursor-move a rectangle over the finest details and display their resolution, that would be great if it's accurate.


If my technique of measuring, with a loupe or millimeter ruler, the on-screen widths of the higest-resolution details that catch my eye, then match them to similar multiburst widths isn't accurate, well...never mind then. :-) -- John

Last edited by John Mason; 09-28-2014 at 10:36 AM. Reason: link addition
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post #704 of 735 Old 08-07-2014, 02:59 PM
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Is there even a reasonable way to calibrate a monitor for a cable TV signal? The settings that are right when you calibrate from a BluRay player using the Spears and Munsil are often clearly not appropriate for tv.

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post #705 of 735 Old 08-07-2014, 03:19 PM
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When I had a TiVo S3 w/ cable card, most channels looked good with the same calibration. Only one really off was SyFy as their levels were really wrong.

Today I use all streaming sources for TV and they are correct with the same calibration. This includes Netflix, Hulu, iTunes, Amazon, and Xbox. Have used Xbox One, Apple TV, and Rokus.
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post #706 of 735 Old 08-07-2014, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post
Is there even a reasonable way to calibrate a monitor for a cable TV signal? The settings that are right when you calibrate from a BluRay player using the Spears and Munsil are often clearly not appropriate for tv.
In my case, my DirecTV HD signals look as good as a Blu-ray, so I'm not convinced that a different calibration is required. My DirecTV DVR's output an RGB signal, so I set the Oppo to output RGB when I calibrate. I'm not sure this makes a difference, but that is what I do.
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post #707 of 735 Old 08-07-2014, 04:42 PM
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I believe it is important to match the output. If your cable box outputs RGB, set Blu-ray to RGB for that input. Other than the Xbox One, all of my sources output YCbCr 4:4:4.
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post #708 of 735 Old 08-08-2014, 12:39 AM
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Just in case it helps others...............the only thing that appears to alter the calibration of my Plasma is the frame rate, therefore I have separate calibrations for 24, 50, and 60Hz. This may only apply to Pioneer panels, others may not be affected.
Regards, Mike.
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post #709 of 735 Old 08-08-2014, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post
Just in case it helps others...............the only thing that appears to alter the calibration of my Plasma is the frame rate, therefore I have separate calibrations for 24, 50, and 60Hz. This may only apply to Pioneer panels, others may not be affected.
Regards, Mike.
That is interesting, Mike. What about the calibration is different? Color balance, gray scale...

It must be somewhat tedious to remember to switch calibrations depending on the frame rate of the source signal.
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post #710 of 735 Old 08-08-2014, 07:02 AM
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Some displays have different memories for frame rates. Some of have different memories for color spaces. And some have different memories for inputs. And of course all combinations. The cheapest displays may have one memory for everything.
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post #711 of 735 Old 08-08-2014, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
That is interesting, Mike. What about the calibration is different? Color balance, gray scale...

It must be somewhat tedious to remember to switch calibrations depending on the frame rate of the source signal.
If you use a Lumagen video processor you can get it to select different LUT's dependant on incoming signal resolutions and refresh rates, so you get correct colours for 60Hz SD and 60Hz HD as well as 24Hz, 50Hz etc....

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post #712 of 735 Old 08-08-2014, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post
Just in case it helps others...............the only thing that appears to alter the calibration of my Plasma is the frame rate, therefore I have separate calibrations for 24, 50, and 60Hz. This may only apply to Pioneer panels, others may not be affected.
Regards, Mike.
very interesting and timely.
I vaguely remember that Kuros were like this.
But that is not what is so timely.
I have a VT25. spent hours and hours trying to calibrate it using a Bluray
at 24P and 60i.
Changes to service menu or custom cuts and drives were never reflected.
needless to say I was both disappointed and stumped.
I finally got a laptop with HDMI out.
Out of frustration I changed refresh/hz/frame rate and found that 29hz
showed a smooth gray scale and reflected the minor changes made to service menu and custom cuts/drives.
I have a calman run that reflects this. anybody want a look?

sorry if this is a high jack.

Loving D65
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post #713 of 735 Old 08-09-2014, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
That is interesting, Mike. What about the calibration is different? Color balance, gray scale...

It must be somewhat tedious to remember to switch calibrations depending on the frame rate of the source signal.
Hi Jerry,
I initially noticed that Gray-scale varied at the top end - my panel appears to require more 'blue gain' as the refresh rate increases (24Hz lowest, then 60Hz, then 50Hz - this is because the panel displays 50Hz @ 100Hz)
The colours may also vary, but seeing that I now use my Lumagen Mini3D to perform 125-point CMS via Chromapure - I don't get to see the actual values.

As Gordon has commented earlier, with the Lumagen the appropriate CMS is automatically applied per input signal conditions - so no need to manually switch anything once the calibrations are set and stored.
The Pioneer panel also remembers settings per input signal - so again all automatic when in use.
The only issue is that my calibrations take three times as long, due to me repeating everything at each refresh rate.

Regards, Mike.
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post #714 of 735 Old 08-09-2014, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post
Hi Jerry,
I initially noticed that Gray-scale varied at the top end - my panel appears to require more 'blue gain' as the refresh rate increases (24Hz lowest, then 60Hz, then 50Hz - this is because the panel displays 50Hz @ 100Hz)
The colours may also vary, but seeing that I now use my Lumagen Mini3D to perform 125-point CMS via Chromapure - I don't get to see the actual values.

As Gordon has commented earlier, with the Lumagen the appropriate CMS is automatically applied per input signal conditions - so no need to manually switch anything once the calibrations are set and stored.
The Pioneer panel also remembers settings per input signal - so again all automatic when in use.
The only issue is that my calibrations take three times as long, due to me repeating everything at each refresh rate.

Regards, Mike.
Are you using the dE94 setting - much faster, and more accurate!
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post #715 of 735 Old 08-10-2014, 04:48 AM
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^^^^^^^
I do have ChromaPure set to use dE94 - as recommended by Tom H. But I am not aware of any speed advantage, it's just a method of calculating 'error' - and dE2000 may actually be better as it gives more 'perceptual error' accuracy (not an accurate term, but then I'm no expert!!!!!!!!).
Regards, Mike.

P.S. sorry, but this thread seems to have been taken a bit 'off topic' - now we will return to our normal programmes...........................
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post #716 of 735 Old 08-10-2014, 08:32 AM
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Question. I just ran version 1 thru its paces on a new BDT460 Panny. All tests did well except the Chroma Zone Plate.

Unlike my Sony 6200 which is pretty smooth all the way out, it is smooth in the center areas then gets jaggy as you move out. If you toggle thru player picture modes, all modes look this way except "Soft", which clears it right up. Are they doing some kind of "sharpening" that would cause that?

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post #717 of 735 Old 08-12-2014, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Question. I just ran version 1 thru its paces on a new BDT460 Panny. All tests did well except the Chroma Zone Plate.

Unlike my Sony 6200 which is pretty smooth all the way out, it is smooth in the center areas then gets jaggy as you move out. If you toggle thru player picture modes, all modes look this way except "Soft", which clears it right up. Are they doing some kind of "sharpening" that would cause that?
Seems similar to what I ran into with the 1st-edition disc, using the luma multiburst patterns. The two highest horizontal-resolution burst frequencies (most narrow line spacing) had fuzziness until I put that HDMI input into 1:1 display mode:
"High Definition Benchmark" BD Edition by Stacey Spears and Don Munsil
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post #718 of 735 Old 08-12-2014, 03:15 PM
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Thanks. Yeah, my Panny is set to full screen HD size 2 which is 1:1, as verified with other patterns. I can hook my Sony 6200 up and it passes all the tests, which tells me the Panny is doing something to Chroma with certain picture modes.

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post #719 of 735 Old 08-13-2014, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Thanks. Yeah, my Panny is set to full screen HD size 2 which is 1:1, as verified with other patterns. I can hook my Sony 6200 up and it passes all the tests, which tells me the Panny is doing something to Chroma with certain picture modes.
Glad I looked that up. My Panny VX100 has a setup menu for a 1:1 pixel ON/OFF readout for each input, and while I had it set 1:1 ON for my HDMI 1 Blu-ray Sony PS3 input, it was OFF for my HDMI 2 input, cable. So I've been watching Verizon FIOS for years without 1:1. Haven't noticed aliasing on cable, as with two S-M disc luma multibursts before selecting 1:1, but I'll have to devise some tests to see if there's a boost in crispness going from OFF to ON with cable viewing. -- John

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post #720 of 735 Old 08-24-2014, 03:50 PM
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I have been using the AVS HD709 disk along with CalMAN for my display calibrations. Since the S&M disk has similar windows under the Equal Energy Windows section, I decided to switch to using the S&M disk. Two calibration procedures use these windows. The Grayscale 2-Point adjustment screen uses the 30% and 80% White windows, and the Grayscale and Gamma Multipoint adjustment screen uses all white windows from 0% to 100% in sequence.

My question is this: the calibration workflow would be so much smoother if I could progress between the windows by simply pressing the "next chapter" button on the remote. However, as best I can tell, the only way to navigate between windows is to press the Top Menu button, scroll to the next screen, and press the Select button. Perhaps I am missing something, but is there an easier way to navigate between windows?
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