Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark Blu-Ray 2nd Edition - Page 29 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #841 of 886 Old 03-02-2015, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
^ Are you a professional calibrator? Sounds like you are trying to drum up some business. As I said earlier, I check my LED display periodically, and I have not noticed any drift. Maybe I have quality components...
I'm a semi-retired Senior who keeps the 6 TVs in the house up to snuff.
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post #842 of 886 Old 08-13-2015, 04:41 PM
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When setting speaker levels with a spl meter or calibrated usb mic like my UMIK-1, do I want bass management on the speakers on or off and why?
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post #843 of 886 Old 08-31-2015, 03:02 PM
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Looks like this thread has lost support
I wonder if any users have used the S&M 2nd edition to check channel level balance.
No matter how many calibrations I do my centre channel always reads about +4db hot using the disc
Using the AVR test tones 75db
So is this an error on the disc or should I reduce the centre level to read 75db as per the rest on the disc?
Andy
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post #844 of 886 Old 08-31-2015, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
Looks like this thread has lost support
I wonder if any users have used the S&M 2nd edition to check channel level balance.
No matter how many calibrations I do my centre channel always reads about +4db hot using the disc
Using the AVR test tones 75db
So is this an error on the disc or should I reduce the centre level to read 75db as per the rest on the disc?
Andy
You cant rely on the test tones from an AVR after you have done an EQ with it, the levels will often show incorrectly. You have to use an outside source like REW/XTZ or a disc like you are using. Also remember a lot of spl meters don't read correctly true, can be + or - 3db out. Just use the disc and set the levels all the same.
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post #845 of 886 Old 08-31-2015, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
You cant rely on the test tones from an AVR after you have done an EQ with it, the levels will often show incorrectly. You have to use an outside source like REW/XTZ or a disc like you are using. Also remember a lot of spl meters don't read correctly true, can be + or - 3db out. Just use the disc and set the levels all the same.
Yes, and if I may add. Don't just get any SPL meter get one thats been verified/calibrated and comes with a report of its performance.

I purchased one from here: http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measur...ted_cm140.html

and am happy with services from cross-spectrum


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post #846 of 886 Old 08-31-2015, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by W3Rman View Post
Yes, and if I may add. Don't just get any SPL meter get one thats been verified/calibrated and comes with a report of its performance.

I purchased one from here: http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measur...ted_cm140.html

and am happy with services from cross-spectrum


Yes this is exactly the one I have also, but recently started to use the SLP meter from my XTZ which I find much easier and quicker to use, I also think its even more accurate.

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post #847 of 886 Old 08-31-2015, 03:33 PM
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Thanks for the reply but I thought my post was clear enough, to recap
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
You cant rely on the test tones from an AVR after you have done an EQ with it, the levels will often show incorrectly.
Agreed that is why I am using a SPL meter and supposed calibrated S&M disc which is showing a +4db error on the centre channel.

With that said using AVR test tones (which by the way bypass Audyssey) all channels read equal +/-

Even having an error a SPL meter will read the same on all channels.
The SPL meter has been cross checked and the results are reliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Just use the disc and set the levels all the same.
Pretty pointless if there is a 4db error on the centre channel recording compared to the rest.
So again has anyone found an error on the centre channel using the S&M disc
Andy
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post #848 of 886 Old 08-31-2015, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
Thanks for the reply but I thought my post was clear enough, to recap

Agreed that is why I am using a SPL meter and supposed calibrated S&M disc which is showing a +4db error on the centre channel.

With that said using AVR test tones (which by the way bypass Audyssey) all channels read equal +/-

Even having an error a SPL meter will read the same on all channels.
The SPL meter has been cross checked and the results are reliable.


Pretty pointless if there is a 4db error on the centre channel recording compared to the rest.
So again has anyone found an error on the centre channel using the S&M disc
Andy

I don't believe you are right, when I used my S&M, both versions, that didn't show on my discs. You have something else wrong.....

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post #849 of 886 Old 08-31-2015, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post




With that said using AVR test tones (which by the way bypass Audyssey) all channels read equal +/-



Andy
There's your problem, you don't want to bypass Audyssey!
You first set your levels with EQ on, so that's why you never check levels with the test tone from the AVR, it by passes your set levels. Using the disc is precisely why people never use the test tones for checking levels. Make sure EQ is set to on when you measure with the disc.


Sometimes if your mic and the centre channel is dead centre of the room the level might be set incorrect from the EQ, hence the reason to check with the S&M disc and a good calibrated SPL meter.


You will also get a very different reading if you have a different centre channel to the L and R. My three front speakers are identical and each is always set identical at 75db.

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Last edited by RapalloAV; 08-31-2015 at 03:46 PM.
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post #850 of 886 Old 08-31-2015, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W3Rman View Post
Yes, and if I may add. Don't just get any SPL meter get one thats been verified/calibrated and comes with a report of its performance.

I purchased one from here: http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measur...ted_cm140.html

and am happy with services from cross-spectrum

Certainly for absolute accuracy
But even a SPL meter out of calibration by 10db will read the same on whatever channel you measure
e.g An AVR test tone outputs 75db, out of cal meter measures 65db
In my situation with that same meter the Left speaker will read 65db Centre channel 69db the meter cannot be blamed for the error.
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post #851 of 886 Old 08-31-2015, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
There's your problem, you don't want to bypass Audyssey!
You first set your levels with EQ on, so that's why you never check levels with the test tone from the AVR, it by passes your set levels. Using the disc is precisely why people never use the test tones for checking levels. Make sure EQ is set to on when you measure with the disc.


Sometimes if your mic and the centre channel is dead centre of the room the level might be set incorrect from the EQ, hence the reason to check with the S&M disc and a good calibrated SPL meter.


You will also get a very different reading if you have a different centre channel to the L and R. My three front speakers are identical and each is always set identical at 75db.
My you must think I'm stupid 20 years of home cinema hopefully I learned something along the way
of course I check the disc with the EQ on that's the whole point of the exercise.

But you do need to switch DEQ Off

Point of order the AVR test tones bypass Audyssey so should not be used to confirm Audyssey levels, but can be used as a reference for SPL meter and any obvious channel level errors.

All my L/C/R are identical speakers AVR tones measure 75db therefore balanced
S&M Disc L/R 75db balanced, centre 79db a 4db error

So if you are saying using the S&M disc you measured your L/C/R with an SPL meter and all they all read balanced then I can discount the disc and need to look elsewhere.

By the way XTZ SPL readings are not accurate.
Andy

Last edited by Lesmor; 08-31-2015 at 04:10 PM.
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post #852 of 886 Old 08-31-2015, 04:17 PM
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FWIW, I have used S&M ver 2 audio test tones to check my post-calibration levels many times, Audyssey on, DEQ off. In my experience, the speaker output levels are very comsistent, and I have never measured a 4dB difference for the center channel. So I would say that, based on my experience, there is nothing wrong with the S&M test tones.

Forgot to mention, I am measuring using CSL UMIK-1 with the REW SPL meter.
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post #853 of 886 Old 08-31-2015, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
FWIW, I have used S&M ver 2 audio test tones to check my post-calibration levels many times, Audyssey on, DEQ off. In my experience, the speaker output levels are very comsistent, and I have never measured a 4dB difference for the center channel. So I would say that, based on my experience, there is nothing wrong with the S&M test tones.

Forgot to mention, I am measuring using CSL UMIK-1 with the REW SPL meter.
Agree,

I just got done doing a test of the SPL output from a Denon AVR using its built in test tones and then comparing the results against the output of SPL levels from the S&M disk. There is no discrepancy for me and my gear, they both display the same results.

I am happy that this has given me a reason use the disk.

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post #854 of 886 Old 09-01-2015, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
FWIW, I have used S&M ver 2 audio test tones to check my post-calibration levels many times, Audyssey on, DEQ off. In my experience, the speaker output levels are very comsistent, and I have never measured a 4dB difference for the center channel. So I would say that, based on my experience, there is nothing wrong with the S&M test tones.

Forgot to mention, I am measuring using CSL UMIK-1 with the REW SPL meter.
Thanks Jerry
and also to all who have replied and confirmed the accuracy of the S&M disc.

The benefit of the discussions with other members is that you can re asses the reason why there is a discrepancy.

I can now put down the error to be a problem in how my centre speaker is being measured
which I will later confirm by swapping speaker cables from my centre speaker to the left speaker and try the disc again.

Although all 3 L/C/R speakers are exactly the same it has occurred to me that by design the centre speaker is orientated horizontally.

This for some reason is being measured and calibrated louder by Audyssey
Cables have been checked and it is not a phase issue.

This is the beauty of having a product like S&M to confirm levels and reduce the centre speaker trim with confidence.

As the saying goes believe but verify.

Thanks again to all respondents

Andy
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post #855 of 886 Old 02-24-2016, 04:13 PM
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Is the free Excel file for max uniformity deviation still available for download? Can't find it on S&M web site.
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post #856 of 886 Old 02-24-2016, 10:07 PM
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@sspears and @dmunsil , maybe I missed it, but do you guys plan on doing a 3rd edition?

It would be great to have a reference disc to calibrate for UHD (4K, HDR, WCG, 10bit, Immersive audio, etc).
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post #857 of 886 Old 02-25-2016, 10:11 AM
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Yes, there will be a 3rd edition for UHD BD. Probably late 2017. No current mux supports Dolby Vision at this time. There are really only two authoring packages available, Sonic and Jargon. Sony is not selling Blu-print at this time. Current encoders don't support segment re-encoding for BD. The format is really not ready for prime time as you can tell by the launch titles and Samsung player.
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post #858 of 886 Old 02-25-2016, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play
Is the free Excel file for max uniformity deviation still available for download? Can't find it on S&M web site.
It was never created. Don had some ideas, but they never really panned out. You are the 2nd person that has asked for it.
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post #859 of 886 Old 02-25-2016, 10:20 AM
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Sorry, I had not seen the comments on the audio levels or I would have responded sooner.

We created two audio pink noise source files. One for the LFE and one for the mains. If one was off, they would all be off. An audio precision HDMI audio analyzer was used to confirm the levels and more importantly, channel assignment. We went back and fourth several times with the help of THX to ensure the levels matched that of a THX AVR. They were also able to verify both electrically and acoustically to have another party confirm the results.

Not sure what we will be able to do with Atmos yet. Should know more by end of year.
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post #860 of 886 Old 02-25-2016, 10:27 AM
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Sorry, I had not seen the comments on the audio levels or I would have responded sooner.

We created two audio pink noise source files. One for the LFE and one for the mains. If one was off, they would all be off. An audio precision HDMI audio analyzer was used to confirm the levels and more importantly, channel assignment. We went back and fourth several times with the help of THX to ensure the levels matched that of a THX AVR. They were also able to verify both electrically and acoustically to have another party confirm the results.

Not sure what we will be able to do with Atmos yet. Should know more by end of year.
Thanks very much for the confirmation on audio levels that lets me concentrate on finding whether it is the centre speaker or room which is causing the difference.
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post #861 of 886 Old 02-25-2016, 04:26 PM
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It was never created. Don had some ideas, but they never really panned out. You are the 2nd person that has asked for it.

Ok, thanks.


For 3rd Edition, can you include full-field patterns, in the 0-5% levels, to test near black uniformity on some of these new OLED displays?
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post #862 of 886 Old 02-25-2016, 04:29 PM
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Yes, we can do that.
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post #863 of 886 Old 02-25-2016, 05:16 PM
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That's great. And please add 0.5% black as well. On some displays 0% black will result in the screen shutting down.
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post #864 of 886 Old 02-25-2016, 08:19 PM
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@Pres2play, some great ideas!

@sspears and @dmunsil, perhaps we should create a new thread to start discussing them in more detail?
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post #865 of 886 Old 02-26-2016, 03:59 PM
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^^^ Thanks


Also, no labels (.5%, 1%, 2%...) please
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post #866 of 886 Old 02-27-2016, 10:15 AM
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If you wanted to start a new thread, I would make it a generic future calibration disc wishlist thread. Then we can subscribe to it.

Right now we are focused on updating our tools and waiting on Dolby Vision support in the authoring tools and encoders, which is currently non-existent. We may actually release a USB product later this year as a stop gap for those that want something sooner. For example, with a pattern on a USB stick we were able to confirm that the Samsung UHD BD player to Samsung display was sending 8-bit. Samsung UHD player to another display, such as Sony is sending 10-bit.
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post #867 of 886 Old 02-27-2016, 07:53 PM
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sspears, I have your first edition cal. disc and have a question about setting contrast. I don't have any calibration equipment, just this disc. I have a lot of trouble seeing when color shift starts by eye. Any advice?


Also, when using the Clipping pattern, I found out red is being clipped. Do I turn down contrast until the inner boxes start to appear? Or do ALL the inner boxes need to be visible?


Am I better off using the Clipping pattern to set contrast, or trying to set it by the color shift? Thanks.


Display - Mits. HC3800 DLP projector


Player - Panasonic BDP230
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post #868 of 886 Old 02-28-2016, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
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If you wanted to start a new thread, I would make it a generic future calibration disc wishlist thread. Then we can subscribe to it.

Right now we are focused on updating our tools and waiting on Dolby Vision support in the authoring tools and encoders, which is currently non-existent. We may actually release a USB product later this year as a stop gap for those that want something sooner. For example, with a pattern on a USB stick we were able to confirm that the Samsung UHD BD player to Samsung display was sending 8-bit. Samsung UHD player to another display, such as Sony is sending 10-bit.

I want one!


BTW, I found two excellent articles on your web site: Setting the Contrast Control and Setting the Brightness Control, both 2nd Edition. I didn't realize how little I understood these controls, or the test patterns. When I read contrast is a multiplier I had an epiphany. No kidding!

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post #869 of 886 Old 03-01-2016, 04:37 AM
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Does the 3D section actually work for anyone?I know it's not an equipment issue on my end but the disc doesn't seem to trigger or go into any sort of 3D mode when using the 3D videos or patterns
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post #870 of 886 Old 03-01-2016, 05:27 AM
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Does the 3D section actually work for anyone?I know it's not an equipment issue on my end but the disc doesn't seem to trigger or go into any sort of 3D mode when using the 3D videos or patterns
It works fine for me. IIRC you have to enable it in the disc settings.
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