Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark Blu-Ray 2nd Edition - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 693 Old 05-08-2013, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post

The last box is a different level than the background, and it's supposed to be reproduced at a different level on the screen. But on most displays, it's nearly or in some cases completely impossible to see the difference between it and the background, because it's only one level different.

The spacing of levels in video is intended to make a one-level difference not visually distinguishable, so smooth gradients will look smooth. This isn't always true, as anyone who has seen banding in video can attest.

The wording of the help text is so people don't go crazy trying to make that last level visible against the background. On most displays you can't make it visible no matter how you adjust Contrast, and that's OK. On your display, apparently it can be made quite visible, which suggests there's something quirky going on with the gamma curve at the high end, or maybe that you're extra sensitive to small level differences than the average individual. Given that, our preference would be to choose the setting that makes it visible. You could go the other way and it shouldn't cause big problems. But if you want our opinion, there it is. smile.gif

thanks, that clarifies things
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post #182 of 693 Old 05-08-2013, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

however, the help menu for dynamic range YCbCr states "all of the boxes should be visible"

I wrote the help text, so mea culpa. Obviously they should both use the same wording. Thanks for the catch.

This illustrates the struggles trying to explain things in a way that will be correct, but useful to people who aren't experts.

Technically all the level boxes are different from the background. But practically, the last box is usually not going to be visible under normal circumstances. If you get right up next to it, often you can see the difference more clearly. So do we say "all the boxes should be visible" and have people ask us why they can never see the last box? Or do we say, "all the boxes except the last should be visible" and then you get the problem you're having where it's not clear whether you should adjust so it is visible or not?

Based on this conversation, I think we should have written, "All the boxes should be different in level from the background, but the last box may be very difficult to distinguish from the background and this is normal." Though even then, some people would be frustrated because on their display they absolutely can't distinguish the last box.
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post #183 of 693 Old 05-08-2013, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post

I wrote the help text, so mea culpa. Obviously they should both use the same wording. Thanks for the catch.

This illustrates the struggles trying to explain things in a way that will be correct, but useful to people who aren't experts.

Technically all the level boxes are different from the background. But practically, the last box is usually not going to be visible under normal circumstances. If you get right up next to it, often you can see the difference more clearly. So do we say "all the boxes should be visible" and have people ask us why they can never see the last box? Or do we say, "all the boxes except the last should be visible" and then you get the problem you're having where it's not clear whether you should adjust so it is visible or not?

Based on this conversation, I think we should have written, "All the boxes should be different in level from the background, but the last box may be very difficult to distinguish from the background and this is normal." Though even then, some people would be frustrated because on their display they absolutely can't distinguish the last box.

I seem to be able to see box 253 (the last one) most easily in the green channel, with red and blue being quite a bit harder to detect since they are much darker than green (because green is 72% the brightness of white, red is only 21%, and blue is a mere 7%). For me, it's easier to see the 3-4 highest boxes from my viewing position vs. my face near the screen, as is viewing the LCD panel from dead center vs. off-axis. Also, like the help text suggests, a dark room with my eyes adjusted to that environment helps me see the last 3-4 boxes more clearly than during the day in a somewhat dim room (curtains shut but light still leaks from them as they are thin and light colored).

Also, I don't know if my display has odd gamma near 109% white or if my eyes are just sensitive to subtle changes in the levels near peak white. I'd guess it's a bit of both, but more so my eyes than the display (when my eyes get fatigued by staring at bright patterns too long while calibrating or from watching a bit too much TV, the highest 3-4 bars become harder to see).
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post #184 of 693 Old 05-10-2013, 06:44 AM
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Just received my disc in the mail this week. Great service and shipping to Canada from Oppo! Took only a week.

Can't wait to starting getting familiar with the disc and calibrating my display. I have a 54 inch VT25 and Oppo 103.

I am very familar with my HT and have adjusted some settings in Custom picture mode. I think my VT25 looks pretty good now but wanted to see how much I could get out of it and that is why I bought the disc.

I am getting somewhat intimidated by some of the talk on this forum as I am not a professional and some of this stuff goes beyond what I understand now.

Any advice for a rookie with this disc and my HT set up? Many thanks!

JJ


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post #185 of 693 Old 05-10-2013, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by JJMONIE View Post

Any advice for a rookie with this disc and my HT set up?

Start with our step-by-step guide to a basic calibration. There's one in the booklet, or there's a version on our web site:

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/getting-started-with-the-high-definition-benchmark-2/

There are a bunch of other articles on the web site covering specific aspects of calibration and getting into the theory of what a specific control is for. They're all (hopefully) interesting and should help you understand the basic patterns.

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/2nd-edition-articles/

Our plan is to keep adding new articles about other sections of the disc, so keep checking back!

Don
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post #186 of 693 Old 05-10-2013, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post

Start with our step-by-step guide to a basic calibration. There's one in the booklet, or there's a version on our web site:

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/getting-started-with-the-high-definition-benchmark-2/

There are a bunch of other articles on the web site covering specific aspects of calibration and getting into the theory of what a specific control is for. They're all (hopefully) interesting and should help you understand the basic patterns.

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/2nd-edition-articles/

Our plan is to keep adding new articles about other sections of the disc, so keep checking back!

Don

Thanks Don! I look forward to using it.

JJ

JJ
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post #187 of 693 Old 05-12-2013, 12:01 PM
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For those who are interested, Stacey and I will be the guests on Scott Wilkinson's "Home Theater Geeks" podcast on twit.tv from 2-3 PM Pacific time. You can watch it live on http://live.twit.tv and ask questions via live chat during the show.
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post #188 of 693 Old 05-12-2013, 12:09 PM
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To be clear, that is Monday at 2-3 PM, not today.
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post #189 of 693 Old 05-12-2013, 12:12 PM
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Yes, getting the day right would help, wouldn't it?
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post #190 of 693 Old 05-12-2013, 01:28 PM
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Anyone have any opinions on the A/V sync tool?

Samsung UN60D6420 ~ DirecTV HR-44 ~ Sony S5100 ~ Roku 3 ~ Denon X-2000 ~ HTD Level TWO Towers ~ HTD Level TWO Surrounds ~ Power Sound Audio XV15
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post #191 of 693 Old 05-12-2013, 04:35 PM
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on avg, how long does a calibration with the disc take? thanks
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post #192 of 693 Old 05-12-2013, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lohajat112 View Post

on avg, how long does a calibration with the disc take? thanks

It really depends on how experienced you are and how much time you want to spend on each of the settings and patterns. But figure 30-60 minutes for a basic calibration. If you read our getting started article, that should give you some idea of what's involved.

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/getting-started-with-the-high-definition-benchmark-2/

Once you know the process, you can do a basic "tune up" calibration or a calibration for a different input (covering just the basic settings) in about 10-15 minutes.
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post #193 of 693 Old 05-12-2013, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Anyone have any opinions on the A/V sync tool?

Not sure if this was covered in the help or not, but one tip is to hold your hands up in front of your face and block everything but one of the bars. Then see if the beep occurs when the bar you are looking at is hit. Move to the next bar and repeat.

If your AVR has the ability to adjust A/V sync, then set it to one extreme and view the pattern. Then repeat with it set to the other extreme.
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post #194 of 693 Old 05-12-2013, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Not sure if this was covered in the help or not, but one tip is to hold your hands up in front of your face and block everything but one of the bars. Then see if the beep occurs when the bar you are looking at is hit. Move to the next bar and repeat.

If your AVR has the ability to adjust A/V sync, then set it to one extreme and view the pattern. Then repeat with it set to the other extreme.


Thanks for the tip! I look forward to giving this tool a go.

Samsung UN60D6420 ~ DirecTV HR-44 ~ Sony S5100 ~ Roku 3 ~ Denon X-2000 ~ HTD Level TWO Towers ~ HTD Level TWO Surrounds ~ Power Sound Audio XV15
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post #195 of 693 Old 05-13-2013, 03:53 AM
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Just got my disk in the mail today (12 days to get from US to Aus). Had a play with it and is very extensive, an excellent purchase.

A quick question. Is it possible to use this disk to calibrate my LED-LCD Sony HX 929? I didn't come across and full fields pattern like them on the Rec.709 disk. Did I miss them? Or is it recommended to use the equal energy ones? Or are they for plasma TV's only?

Sorry for newbie the questions. Would love to use this disk as my pattern source.

~ Hayden

Sorry for any typos or bad grammar, I am Dyslexic.

Sony XBR-HX929, Sony Playstation 3 (Slim 160GB), i1 Display Pro OEM, CalMAN Enthusiast.
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post #196 of 693 Old 05-13-2013, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by e08 View Post

A quick question. Is it possible to use this disk to calibrate my LED-LCD Sony HX 929? I didn't come across and full fields pattern like them on the Rec.709 disk.

The idea is to use the equal-energy patterns for every device. At worst, they do no harm. On devices with automatic brightness circuitry or auto-iris systems, they work much better than standard windows. Even on an LCD, they equalize the ambient light splash, which has always been a problem for calibration, albeit a fairly minor one.
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post #197 of 693 Old 05-13-2013, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post

The idea is to use the equal-energy patterns for every device. At worst, they do no harm. On devices with automatic brightness circuitry or auto-iris systems, they work much better than standard windows. Even on an LCD, they equalize the ambient light splash, which has always been a problem for calibration, albeit a fairly minor one.

This is good to know, thanks for the reply.

~ Hayden

Sorry for any typos or bad grammar, I am Dyslexic.

Sony XBR-HX929, Sony Playstation 3 (Slim 160GB), i1 Display Pro OEM, CalMAN Enthusiast.
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post #198 of 693 Old 05-13-2013, 05:13 PM
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Sorry guys. Another noob ?. Does this work only for plasmas? Also do u just do this once and apply the settings to all inputs (ps3 and satellite)? Thanks
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post #199 of 693 Old 05-13-2013, 05:17 PM
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It works on all display types. You can copy to other inputs as a starting point.
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post #200 of 693 Old 05-13-2013, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

It works on all display types. You can copy to other inputs as a starting point.

Hey Stacey
What do u mean as a starting point? Why would you calibrate each input to get settings, wouldn't they just carry over? Thanks
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post #201 of 693 Old 05-14-2013, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
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Hey Stacey
What do u mean as a starting point? Why would you calibrate each input to get settings, wouldn't they just carry over? Thanks

Each input should be calibrated separately, as not all devices output the the picture the same (though in a perfect world they should). Copying over your settings is a good starting point as stated but might not be correct. Sometimes it's all we can do (eg, I use my PS3 settings for my Xbox as I don't have a DVD calibration disk).

~ Hayden

Sorry for any typos or bad grammar, I am Dyslexic.

Sony XBR-HX929, Sony Playstation 3 (Slim 160GB), i1 Display Pro OEM, CalMAN Enthusiast.
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post #202 of 693 Old 05-14-2013, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e08 View Post

Each input should be calibrated separately, as not all devices output the the picture the same (though in a perfect world they should). Copying over your settings is a good starting point as stated but might not be correct. Sometimes it's all we can do (eg, I use my PS3 settings for my Xbox as I don't have a DVD calibration disk).

the S&M 2nd Edition comes with a DVD for setting basic picture settings
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post #203 of 693 Old 05-14-2013, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
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the S&M 2nd Edition comes with a DVD for setting basic picture settings

How did I miss that?! D'oh! Thanks for that, will play with it tonight.

~ Hayden

Sorry for any typos or bad grammar, I am Dyslexic.

Sony XBR-HX929, Sony Playstation 3 (Slim 160GB), i1 Display Pro OEM, CalMAN Enthusiast.
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post #204 of 693 Old 05-16-2013, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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After Receiving Today my copy of Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark Blu-Ray 2nd Edition Disk... (Thank you Buzz for that)

I can confirm that it has the most advanced tests (static or motion patterns) available of any other Calibration Disk of my Collection!

I just took a picture of my UpdaTED Calibration/Reference Disks Collection. smile.gif


Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #205 of 693 Old 05-16-2013, 01:11 PM
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eek.gif

Now that is one impressive collection! Makes my set of 3 disks seems pitiful... Gotta start somewhere.

~ Hayden

Sorry for any typos or bad grammar, I am Dyslexic.

Sony XBR-HX929, Sony Playstation 3 (Slim 160GB), i1 Display Pro OEM, CalMAN Enthusiast.
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post #206 of 693 Old 05-16-2013, 01:11 PM
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That's a nice collection.
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post #207 of 693 Old 05-17-2013, 04:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e08 View Post

eek.gif

Now that is one impressive collection! Makes my set of 3 disks seems pitiful... Gotta start somewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

That's a nice collection.



Thank you, I forgot to include this one, I have just received it.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #208 of 693 Old 05-17-2013, 06:10 AM
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I need help with the color adjustment.
I can not get the blue/white squares on the S&M disk to match using the blue filter in YUV. The center is always darker than the surround. I can get a match if I use RGB (0-255) but then I have to make my adjustments on the BD player. (Oppo 103)
Tried it on two different Optoma DLP's.
With the Disney WOW or AVS HD 709 disks I have no problem.

thanks,
td
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post #209 of 693 Old 05-17-2013, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tucsondave View Post

I need help with the color adjustment.
I can not get the blue/white squares on the S&M disk to match using the blue filter in YUV. The center is always darker than the surround. I can get a match if I use RGB (0-255) but then I have to make my adjustments on the BD player. (Oppo 103)

Just to make sure, are the left red/yellow/green boxes turning completely black when viewed through the filter? Have you checked for clipping using the Contrast pattern or the Dynamic Range High pattern? Is the projector in any kind of special mode like "dynamic," "vivid," or "sport"?

The levels of our color/tint pattern are deliberately higher than 75% to make it easier to use and to make sure that all the colors come out at the right levels (some colors don't round trip accurately from RGB->YCbCr->RGB at 75%). It's possible that the projector is doing some odd things with the color or gamma above 75%, or that there is some kind of dynamic color mode that is affecting the higher range. I'd start digging through the menus and seeing if there is anything that you can turn off that fixes this problem.
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post #210 of 693 Old 05-17-2013, 10:21 AM
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Just to add one Don said. Try the 75 and 100% bars under video measurements. The 75% would be like WoW. If the 75% works and the 100% doesn't, this suggests that something funny is going on. Our color bar and tint pattern falls between 75% and 100%.

You have turned color all the way up and down and the two never match? You should stand back as far away as possible from the screen so the border between the two colors does not distract.
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