ABL effects measured for comparison - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 182 Old 12-19-2012, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I made some measurement runs of various window sizes and varieties on my Panasonic 55GT50 for comparison purposes and to help explore the differences in measurements ABL circuitry makes.

The GCD disc I used was build 4_3_11, and I am not sure if there has been any changes since that version. The AVS APL windows were from the latest AVS 709 test disc. Chad B's APL windows can be found in the thread "Chad B's custom test patterns" and are between the AVS L and S APL windows in size and are based loosely on their design. The 21%, 50%, and 99% APL windows were manually generated by entering the CalMAN required RGB tripletts into my VideoForge pattern generator. The VF allows me to specify the APL percentage, and then it generates a 5% window with a small black border surrounded by the APL background, with a result that is somewhat visually similar to the GCD APL windows. The DB ramp readings were taken with the AVS 709 dynamic brightness test; the disc was paused with the DB pattern background at both it's brightest and darkest points, and then each step in the ramp was measured by physically moving the meter over each level.

The DB ramp results are especially intriguing in that they show inter-field gamma and white balance, with ABL fully kicked in vs. hardly kicked in at all. I'll get into what that means a bit later, but I think it will help answer some questions about whether plasmas can be properly calibrated because of ABL circuitry. COMPARISON-12_19_2012.pdf 104k .pdf file
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post #2 of 182 Old 12-19-2012, 08:24 PM
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Im not knowledgable in this matter at all, bit I think I am happy to see that at least whitebalance stays a bit together through it all. Though the gamma drop at full field is pretty scary wink.gif
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post #3 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 04:07 AM
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Chad,
These charts are based on preset settings(default) or calibration settings?
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post #4 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 04:22 AM
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Would it be incorrect to assume that the 21% APL would be the correct patterns for the most accurate results?

If the above statement is true, then would it not be correct to say that calibrating a plasma display with the AVSHD, Chad's or GCD disc is not providing the calibrator with accurate results or settings?

What about the ChromaPure Calibration Disc? I think that it would be important to add that disc to the discussion.
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post #5 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Though the gamma drop at full field is pretty scary
Yes, the full field gamma is dramatic but totally normal for a plasma. That's why fields can't be used for plasma calibration. It's weird that the built in patterns on LG plasmas are fields.eek.gif

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post #6 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fallengt View Post

Chad,
These charts are based on preset settings(default) or calibration settings?

Calibrated Custom mode. Contrast was set for full WTW headroom.

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post #7 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 06:29 AM
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So Chad through your testing which patterns would be best to calibrate my 55GT30 service menu in THX mode?

BTW,Thanks for the time and research you have put into this...

I have calibrated THX mode on my tv with 10% windows,sm apl., lg apl and I alway feel like i'am in doubt to which is correct due to how the abl acts up..

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post #8 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Stevens View Post

Would it be incorrect to assume that the 21% APL would be the correct patterns for the most accurate results?
If the above statement is true, then would it not be correct to say that calibrating a plasma display with the AVSHD, Chad's or GCD disc is not providing the calibrator with accurate results or settings?
What about the ChromaPure Calibration Disc? I think that it would be important to add that disc to the discussion.
This is going to be tricky because the goal is to find which one matches most with how the set looks with normal content. I own the set but still this is going to be subjective.
IMO we can rule out my APL and both AVS APLs, as they give a fairly significant "jog" in the blue that is not present in any way with normal content.
The 21% APL shows a significant blue dip at 30%, which I have never seen any hint of with normal content.

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post #9 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 06:44 AM
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So the 21% APL chart uses a 5% sized window?

As far as technique is concerned, is the APL surround darker for brighter 5% windows and lighter for darker 5% windows? Just curious to see if the APL averages in the brightness of the window to calculate the surround shade.

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post #10 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 06:57 AM
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The best results on my VT50 were with the small apl patterns on the cgd. Completely subjective thought. I watch three scenes from avatar always. The helicopter flying to and landing in the forrest, the following nightscenes with the dogs and bringing sully to the tree of life, and the aerial battle in the end. Allways alleays these scenes. And they looked best with small apl or small regular. Highly subjective I know, but I wont use other patterns on my plasma if I can help it.
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post #11 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

The DB ramp results are especially intriguing in that they show inter-field gamma and white balance, with ABL fully kicked in vs. hardly kicked in at all. I'll get into what that means a bit later, but I think it will help answer some questions about whether plasmas can be properly calibrated because of ABL circuitry.

I am really looking forward to reading your thoughts and conclusions on this.

I'm currently on the plasma calibration "learning curve", and came to the (hopefully uneducated) conclusion that any sort of "accuracy" is simply impossible because of ABL. I drew this conclusion because so many targets are based on luminance @100% white, and since this is a moving target on plasmas, well... I really hope you can provide some guidance here.

Sure appreciate your time and effort!
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post #12 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 11:42 AM
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I'm also interested to read if specific conclusions can be drawn from the measurements. The following two quotes seem to conflict, since the patterns are effectively a similar concept. My perspective is that the DB Ramp measurements are simply farther from average video content than the AVS APL measures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

The DB ramp results are especially intriguing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

IMO we can rule out my APL and both AVS APLs


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post #13 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I made some measurement runs of various window sizes and varieties on my Panasonic 55GT50 for comparison purposes and to help explore the differences in measurements ABL circuitry makes.
The GCD disc I used was build 4_3_11, and I am not sure if there has been any changes since that version. The AVS APL windows were from the latest AVS 709 test disc. Chad B's APL windows can be found in the thread "Chad B's custom test patterns" and are between the AVS L and S APL windows in size and are based loosely on their design. The 21%, 50%, and 99% APL windows were manually generated by entering the CalMAN required RGB tripletts into my VideoForge pattern generator. The VF allows me to specify the APL percentage, and then it generates a 5% window with a small black border surrounded by the APL background, with a result that is somewhat visually similar to the GCD APL windows. The DB ramp readings were taken with the AVS 709 dynamic brightness test; the disc was paused with the DB pattern background at both it's brightest and darkest points, and then each step in the ramp was measured by physically moving the meter over each level.
The DB ramp results are especially intriguing in that they show inter-field gamma and white balance, with ABL fully kicked in vs. hardly kicked in at all. I'll get into what that means a bit later, but I think it will help answer some questions about whether plasmas can be properly calibrated because of ABL circuitry. COMPARISON-12_19_2012.pdf 104k .pdf file

Intriguing......what was your gamma setting? Looks like 2% windows all the way.

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post #14 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 07:36 PM
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But 2% windows have very little in common with real-world video content... that's why 10% to 12% windows (% of screen surface area) are still the best compromise for calibration. You want to see SOME of the effects of the TV while you calibrate... you don't want your calibration to be overpowered by the TV's inherent properties (as it would be if you used full-screen patterns which aren't representative of real world video content either). Nor do you want to use a window size so small that you never see any of the limiting the display may do with real video content.

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post #15 of 182 Old 12-20-2012, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

Intriguing......what was your gamma setting? Looks like 2% windows all the way.

The point of this exercise (which takes a lot of work by Chad and I'm very interested in) is not to judge based off those results, but to put some sort of context with those results into real-world viewing. Many of us have calibrated displays where we can get perfect charts with awful images, and so-so charts with wonderful images. With plasmas and how they work, there's a lot more debate over which patterns are correct to use. Here we see a lot of charts that look good enough, but they can all be very different settings and will look much different with content compared to the charts. Chad is trying to find which patterns, and their corresponding chart, correlate to better actual image quality on screen. How the charts for 2% look means very little here if the on-screen images don't match up.

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post #16 of 182 Old 12-21-2012, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

But 2% windows have very little in common with real-world video content... that's why 10% to 12% windows (% of screen surface area) are still the best compromise for calibration. You want to see SOME of the effects of the TV while you calibrate... you don't want your calibration to be overpowered by the TV's inherent properties (as it would be if you used full-screen patterns which aren't representative of real world video content either). Nor do you want to use a window size so small that you never see any of the limiting the display may do with real video content.

Doug,


To more accurately reflect real world content, wouldn't you have to have more than one window size based on pattern brightness? For example, 50% lumanance might best be represented with a 11% window while 100% lumanace most accurately be presented in a 5% sized window??????

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post #17 of 182 Old 12-21-2012, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Doug,
To more accurately reflect real world content, wouldn't you have to have more than one window size based on pattern brightness? For example, 50% lumanance might best be represented with a 11% window while 100% lumanace most accurately be presented in a 5% sized window??????

Lets say you wanted to average an entire movie, or even just a single image, down to one gray value that represented typical screen brightness. First you would have to decide if you just wanted to average the video input (VideoForge or GCD APL) or if you want to average for a gamma-adjusted brightness at the screen (AVS APL or DB Ramp). For a single image this really doesn't take too long because you can just convert the image to a single pixel, or you can apply a curve to the video information and then convert to a single pixel. Anyway my main point is that regardless of which method you choose, the average is typically going to be higher than a 50% gray of 10% area or white at 5% area.


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post #18 of 182 Old 12-21-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Doug,
To more accurately reflect real world content, wouldn't you have to have more than one window size based on pattern brightness? For example, 50% lumanance might best be represented with a 11% window while 100% lumanace most accurately be presented in a 5% sized window??????

If you do that, you're only seeing "1 point" within the range of limiting the plasma display does. Let's say the limiting plasmas do can be assigned a number... say 1-10. Less limiting (1) for darker scenes, more limiting (10) for bright scenes. If you vary window size as described, you'll get some very small or no limiting... a 1 or 2. While constant window size will give a range... say 1-4 or 1-5. Which is better? I don't see anything visibly better in plasma calibrations that comes from using variable window sizes (small for bright steps, larger for dark steps). Since the display operates over the entire 1-10 limiting range, it would seem that never seeing what happens to the display above 1-2 levels of limiting could lead to worse errors. Plasma tech is like driving crosscountry in a car that can't maintain a steady speed... you might average 65mph but you do it by varying the speed from 30mph to 100mph... if you don't explore the entire range of speeds the car travels at, you may never find out that there's a bad vibration at 85mph or a wobble in the front-end at 44mph. On the other hand, you don't necessarily want too much limiting involved in the calibration as you won't have a clue what the TRUE gamma of the display is. If I had unlimited time to calibrate a plasma display, I'd measure it with patterns that produce no limiting, patterns that produce maximum limiting, and patterns that produce several intermediate levels of limiting, and patterns that produce variable limiting and I'd use all that data to arrive at the optimum way to calibrate each brand/model. Since that's impractical, you have to pick something that has some relationship with reality but doesn't make the end result un-representative.

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post #19 of 182 Old 12-21-2012, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

you have to pick something that has some relationship with reality but doesn't make the end result un-representative.

The search for this "something" is what has been driving the discussions that last couple of weeks with respect to window size, APL vs. Normal, AVSHD or GCD, etc. Unfortunately, to my observation, there has not been a clear answer.

I do feel that this statement by Doug may be it:

"But 2% windows have very little in common with real-world video content... that's why 10% to 12% windows (% of screen surface area) are still the best compromise for calibration. You want to see SOME of the effects of the TV while you calibrate... you don't want your calibration to be overpowered by the TV's inherent properties (as it would be if you used full-screen patterns which aren't representative of real world video content either). Nor do you want to use a window size so small that you never see any of the limiting the display may do with real video content."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

But 2% windows have very little in common with real-world video content... that's why 10% to 12% windows (% of screen surface area) are still the best compromise for calibration. You want to see SOME of the effects of the TV while you calibrate... you don't want your calibration to be overpowered by the TV's inherent properties (as it would be if you used full-screen patterns which aren't representative of real world video content either). Nor do you want to use a window size so small that you never see any of the limiting the display may do with real video content.


I do have a question Doug that perhaps you could answer.

When calibrating isn't it best to ensure that you calibrate the highest luminance value your set is capable of displaying during any given session, thus ensuring you cover all luminance ranges? Using windows say of 10% plus do not allow for this as Chads experiment illustrates, but smaller windows do. On the basis of this and the fact that neither window size represents real life content anyhow the smaller window would get my vote.

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post #21 of 182 Old 12-29-2012, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

I do have a question Doug that perhaps you could answer.
When calibrating isn't it best to ensure that you calibrate the highest luminance value your set is capable of displaying during any given session, thus ensuring you cover all luminance ranges? Using windows say of 10% plus do not allow for this as Chads experiment illustrates, but smaller windows do. On the basis of this and the fact that neither window size represents real life content anyhow the smaller window would get my vote.

Wondering if anyone can answer this point ?

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post #22 of 182 Old 12-29-2012, 03:14 PM
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I'm confused by this thread. I have a 65" GT50. I have both the AVS HD 709 and GCD disks. Which windows are best?

Are the windows on the AVS disk 15%? Are the windows on the GCD disk 10% and 5%?


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post #23 of 182 Old 12-29-2012, 03:22 PM
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@Chad

You have calibrated many Panasonic GT30's,is there something truly wrong with Gamma in Custom mode (Mid) panel brightness with HDMI Content set to off?

Or is it just ABL giving it the illusion that its off?

I calibrated my Custom Mode with Graphics setting like many others have done but I was just curious if there is certainly gamma issues with HDMI OFF.

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post #24 of 182 Old 12-29-2012, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD-Master View Post

I'm confused by this thread. I have a 65" GT50. I have both the AVS HD 709 and GCD disks. Which windows are best?
Are the windows on the AVS disk 15%? Are the windows on the GCD disk 10% and 5%?
I guess that's still up for debate. I haven't tried Chad's patterns yet, but I have found that 10-14% windows worked well for me. I use the 10% GCD window patterns. The AVSHD709 windows are ~14%.
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post #25 of 182 Old 12-29-2012, 03:49 PM
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I'm confused by this thread. I have a 65" GT50. I have both the AVS HD 709 and GCD disks. Which windows are best?
Are the windows on the AVS disk 15%? Are the windows on the GCD disk 10% and 5%?
I guess that's still up for debate. I haven't tried Chad's patterns yet, but I have found that 10-14% windows worked well for me. I use the 10% GCD window patterns. The AVSHD709 windows are ~14%.

Thanks. I appreciate it. Are you using the 10% APL's or standard windows?


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post #26 of 182 Old 12-29-2012, 04:29 PM
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I only have an ST50 with a 2pt system, but I prefered the windows over the APL, but many seem to like the APL patterns. Try them and see which you like better.

As Chad said, because RGB tracking and (more so) gamma changes based on the APL on plasmas, and APL changes from source to source, scene to scene... it's debatable which patterns best simulate real world content.
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post #27 of 182 Old 12-29-2012, 05:17 PM
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and ABL algorithms are different for different manufacturer's models and a manufacturers' model generations.. even has been different for different display firmware versions

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post #28 of 182 Old 12-29-2012, 07:01 PM
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This thread sorta kinda makes it seem like no one has any idea how to calibrate a plasma.

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post #29 of 182 Old 12-29-2012, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post

This thread sorta kinda makes it seem like no one has any idea how to calibrate a plasma.

It has nothing to do with "how" to calibrate because a plasma can never be made accurate, Any time a display of any type is making decisions on its own, no twist of a knob will yield a reference image in video. That's just the way it is.

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post #30 of 182 Old 12-29-2012, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

It has nothing to do with "how" to calibrate because a plasma can never be made accurate, Any time a display of any type is making decisions on its own, no twist of a knob will yield a reference image in video. That's just the way it is.

Then why do people try to make a plasma accurate? I'm not trying to be an ass, just wondering why people bother if you can never get one accurate?
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