Unable to raise Y value high enough for some colors. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 12-30-2012, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I have an issue with calibrating my 847u SHARP.

I am trying to calibrate the display using Game mode. Why? Because the Movie mode has undefeatable motion enhancement even when Motion Enhancement and Film mode are both off.

Game mode already has a handicap. Even when setting Gamma to -2, the best Gamma I can achieve is 2.0

I accept this handicap as I usually watch in a room with some overhead lights anyway...

I calibrated the display using HCFR and an i1Display Pro and got the grayscale pretty decent. Also was able to do color nicely thanks to the awesome Calibration tool spreadsheet... HOWEVER, I am unable to raise both Green primary and Cyan secondary colors Y value to where they should be. Even when maxing out the CMS Value for both colors...

Is this just something I have to accept as a shortcoming of the display and Game mode? Or does anyone have any tricks on overcoming this deficiency?

Thanks in advance!!

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #2 of 10 Old 12-30-2012, 06:02 PM
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Greetings,

There's just going to have to be more comprise for game mode and in fact in general for the this years sharp's gamut, though movie should be able to get the gamut good (and acceptable) and better than previous sharp models of the past. You should be able to achieve better gamma and wb in Movie.

I'm not surprised by the gamma limitations in game.

In regards to undefeatable motion enhancements in Movie, what specifically are you experiencing?

What is your pattern source (player and disc or generator) and what are you inputting for a signal?

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post #3 of 10 Old 12-30-2012, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, movie mode calibrates better and has a better gamma... but even when I turn off the Motion Enhancement setting as well as the Film setting, there is still some smoothing or dejuddering going on with the movie frames.

It isn't just Movie mode that experiences this either... all modes excluding Game will show some intermittent motion interpolation even with Motion Enhancement and Film mode turned off in the options... it doesn't matter the source either. I have checked my HTPC, PS3 and also the Comcast "OTA" cable directly plugged into the TV.

When using Game mode, the interpolation does not occur... so I am forced to use this mode since I hate motion interpolation/smoothing.

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #4 of 10 Old 12-30-2012, 06:19 PM
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What are you inputting, YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 or RGB and what resolution and fr?

Does this happen with br movies at 1080p24 from the PS3 (properly configured)?

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post #5 of 10 Old 12-30-2012, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

What are you inputting, YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 or RGB and what resolution and fr?
Does this happen with br movies at 1080p24 from the PS3 (properly configured)?

I was watching a 720p movie as well as the News on OTA Fox with the settings turned off and it was still interpolating. (Turning on Game mode stopped it from doing this.)

I was also playing some PS3 games (Star Ocean: The Last Hope), when spinning the camera around with ME and Film off, you can clearly see the camera pans much more smoothly when not using Game mode. (Though it also adds intermediate "jerks" that aren't present on Game mode, due to the interpolation.)

There are actually a couple of people who have the same issue as me, with this TV, so I'm not the only one in this boat.

See: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1397140/official-sharp-aquos-lc-60le847u-lc-70le847u-owners-thread/1710#post_22692287

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1397140/official-sharp-aquos-lc-60le847u-lc-70le847u-owners-thread/1350#post_22418607

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1397140/official-sharp-aquos-lc-60le847u-lc-70le847u-owners-thread/1080#post_22213261

and of course me at http://www.avsforum.com/t/1397140/official-sharp-aquos-lc-60le847u-lc-70le847u-owners-thread/1830#post_22756112

It's a really crippling thing.

EDIT: For the PS3, it's set up for 24p for movies, but I only tested some games. It is YCbCr 4:2:2

The game would have been 720p/60, I think OTA is 30p but it was also 720p.

OH YEAH! I was watching the Beauty and the Beast Special Edition Blu-Ray through my HTPC @ 1080p/60 and there was the dejudder issue in Movie mode there too. Flipped to Game when I saw it and rewound the scene, no smoothing. Flipped to Movie, rewound the scene, smoothing.

Very annoying.

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #6 of 10 Old 12-31-2012, 01:22 PM
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^ Have you tried raising the overall color and tint settings? You might find that these will raise green and cyan to acceptable levels and then reduce the others using the CMS. Also, if the set has RGB cuts and gains in the CMS these can be used to change gamma as well as greyscale.
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post #7 of 10 Old 12-31-2012, 02:04 PM
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Why are you sending 1080p60 from the HTPC when you play a Blu-ray movie? You are injecting judder in the image because 3:2 pulldown has to be added to the Blu-ray disc that is encoded as 24p. To see artifact-free motion from a Blu-ray movie (well, such as it is, 24 fps is a damn slow frame rate which CAUSES blurry motion that we have been CONDITIONED to think looks better than unblurred (or less blurred if you prefer) motion from years of looking at 24 fps in movies).

When you play the movie at 24p, each frame is doubled or tripled or quadrupled by the display (varies by display/manufacturer) so the display operates at 48, 72 or 96 fps without anything added. The addition of interpolated frames does NOT cause motion artifacts. But it does cause motion to appear sharper... more like what you experience in direct-to-video photography. In fact, the addition of interpolated frames makes motion look smoother AND sharper, with no added jumpiness. The interpolated frames may even be sharper than the movie frames because of the way the interpolated frames are calculated. (you can have a shot with a still camera of a race car going by so fast that the car is badly blurred in every frame. Interpolated frames can make the tires appear sharp as well as revealing previously undetectable detail in the car (like advertising, etc.) so you see motion with more detail, not less and not judder-y motion.

The primary reason for the existence of Game mode is to reduce input lag to an absolute minimum so what you see on the screen is not slightly delayed so your actions with the control come too late to accomplish what you want to accomplish. Input lag is reduced by removing processing (typically) which means you may end up with worse-looking images that don't have as much "lag" as other modes. This "lag" does not affect the quality of motion... it is simply an unwanted time delay.

It sounds to me (from reading what you posted here) that you are attributing a problem with un-smooth motion to frame interpolation which should be impossible unless the frame interpolation feature is broken. It was NOT broken in the Quattron I reviewed in 2011 (925 series). So it has me wondering if you are simply creating the motion issue by NOT using 24p playback for movies encoded as 24p and/or forcing 30 fps or 60p content to 24 fps which may be possible in some systems (and that also causes motion problems). Frame interpolation is not intermittent... it works constantly to insert 1 or more frames between each original frame... assuming there is 1 added frame and the object in motion is on the left of frame 1 and at the right of frame 2 of the movie, the interpolated frame (let's call it 1.5) creates a new frame with the object in the middle of the frame... that does NOT cause jerky motion, but frame 1.5 is often sharper than frame 1 or frame 2 so motion will look sharper (more like a video camera). If 2 interpolated frames are added the sequence might be frame 1, frame 1.33, fram 1.66, frame 2, etc. Without frame interpolation, you'd simply get frame 1, frame 1, frame 1, frame 2 (if there was no frame interpolation AND if 3:2 pulldown was not added). When you play 24p content at 30 fps or 60p, you FORCE frames to be repeated in an uneven sequence like this:

1 - 2 - 3 - 4a - 4b - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8a - 8b (every 4th frame is repeated 2 times).... that DOES cause visibly jerky motion if you know what to look for. If you play the movie in 24p all the way through to the display, you get 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9... etc with no unequaly duplication of frames. If the display has a 120 Hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 5 times.... 11111 22222 33333 44444 55555 66666 77777 etc. The only time anything disturbs motion (unless the display has a design or firmware problem) is when you play 24p content at 30fps/60p or when a product has a mode that is supposed to remove 3:2 pulldown from a 30fps/60p (example a DVD or a movie shown on TV) source and it is not done correctly (that can get quite ugly and jumpy).

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post #8 of 10 Old 12-31-2012, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm familiar with the whole 24p vs 60p playback of movies and I know how it can introduce judder due to 3:2, but this is entirely different.

It's something you would have to see in person to understand.

Anyway, like I said, it looks fine... how it should look... when played back on Game mode and also my old 60hz Sony 46" LCD in the bedroom (using the same PC, player, etc.)

It is stuttering, not so much juddering, and also sometimes, speeding up and slowing down (video slows down, then speeds back up, also it loses audio/video sync) in all other modes besides Game mode.

It looks very much like the "FILM" mode is turned on even though I have it off. That's all I can say to describe it.

I've already talked to Sharp regarding this and a tech is scheduled to come out on Wednesday to take a look at it.

This problem also happens through the OTA, or rather, Comcast cable plugged directly into the TV too.

Whatever I am watching on TV has stuttering and occasional motion smoothing, even with both Motion Enhancement and Film both turned off. Audio/video sync sometimes is affected, but the video will catch up automatically later. It does look "jumpy" when this is occurring, though.

I was watching some movie on Fox the other night with Matthew Broderick and some chimp with a cigarette (can't remember the name). I had all the motion and film settings to off, there was some slow panning and when the chimp was walking around while zoomed in, he was really smooth looking in his movement. Flipped to Game mode at the same time and the smooth movement was instantly gone and looked like what I'd expect of a film.

I am really having a technical problem with this TV in this regard. I hate really having to convince people that I'm not stupid or ignorant, that I know how something should look, and that I know what settings should be turned off to defeat them.

The settings which should be turned off aren't defeating them.

Here's hoping that the technician can solve my problem on Wednesday.

Thank you for reading.

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #9 of 10 Old 12-31-2012, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

^ Have you tried raising the overall color and tint settings? You might find that these will raise green and cyan to acceptable levels and then reduce the others using the CMS. Also, if the set has RGB cuts and gains in the CMS these can be used to change gamma as well as greyscale.

I'll try your suggestion of the color adjustment for Game mode.

As far as RGB cuts and gains, I've only got the 2 point white balance available in Game mode. I only calibrated that part to get proper tracking. There isn't any extra RGB cuts and gains in the CMS. Just the regular Hue, Saturation and Value for each color.

Thank you for your input.

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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post #10 of 10 Old 01-01-2013, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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This problem is now irrelevant. I'm returning the Sharp since I was able to nab a Sony KDL60EX645 for half the price of what I paid for the Sharp... doesn't suffer from the motion problem of the Sharp, though it lacks a CMS.

After calibrating the grayscale and anything else I could, the picture looks really good.

Current HT setup:

Samsung UN65F6300 65" LCD HDTV, Polk CS20 Center, 2x Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, 2x Polk TSI300 Backs, Polk PSW110 Subwoofer.

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