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post #1 of 24 Old 01-08-2013, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

Trying to calibrate my Samsung E8000

Have a pioneer blu-ray player and Boxee Box as sources

My question is which of the HDMI outputs are "best"

My pioneer blu-ray is default set to YCbCr 4:2:2, I changed this to YCbCr 4:4:4 because this is what i set my Boxee Box to output too

(when i choose RGB low or RGB high on the Boxee Box I can not see more than 4 line flashing on AVS 709 white clipping but when i choose YCbCr 4:4:4 I can see them all)

not sure what to choose...

my gut feeling says choose RGB since it is digital, but then i only get 4 lines in AVS 709 white clipping.


my choices on my pioneer blu-ray is

YCbCr 4:2:2
YCbCr 4:4:4
RGB
FULL RGB

my choices on Boxee Box are

YCbCr 4:2:2
YCbCr 4:4:4
RGB LOW
RGB HIGH

which one should i choose?

confused noob :P
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post #2 of 24 Old 01-08-2013, 08:23 AM
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YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2, unless there is a reason why you need to use RGB. .

ss
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post #3 of 24 Old 01-08-2013, 08:50 AM
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Something has to convert YCbCr to RGB so our eyes can see it. If you choose 4:2:2, you are letting the TV do the conversion. If you choose 4:4:4, the player is doing the conversion. Do you have any test discs?
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post #4 of 24 Old 01-08-2013, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdoostil View Post

Something has to convert YCbCr to RGB so our eyes can see it. If you choose 4:2:2, you are letting the TV do the conversion. If you choose 4:4:4, the player is doing the conversion. Do you have any test discs?

yes I got the Digital Video Essentials HD blu-ray

Have ordered calman 5 control and i1display pro:D
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post #5 of 24 Old 01-09-2013, 08:54 AM
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Very cool. Color compression patters are just one tool that you can use. I use the Spears and Munsil disc for such pattern.
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post #6 of 24 Old 01-09-2013, 11:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdoostil View Post

Something has to convert YCbCr to RGB so our eyes can see it. If you choose 4:2:2, you are letting the TV do the conversion. If you choose 4:4:4, the player is doing the conversion. Do you have any test discs?

What would you recommend me using?

4:2:2 or 4:4:4?
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post #7 of 24 Old 01-10-2013, 12:08 PM
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I wouldn't be able to tell you that without testing. Set it to 4:2:2 and take a look at some patterns and content. Switch it to 4:4:4 and look at the same patterns and content
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post #8 of 24 Old 01-10-2013, 04:53 PM
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All things being equal and correct, YCbCr 4:2:2 is the ideal format for Blu-ray and HD video in general. There are a lot of reasons for this... the primary reason being that any and all video processing is done in YCbCr mode. So if you send RGB to a display, the display is about 90% certain to convert that to YCbCr for processing, then back to RGB just before the pixels are driven. So sending YCbCr 4:2:2 avoids some unnecesary conversions. If you send RGB to a video display and the Color and Tint controls are still active, that video display is converting RGB back to YCbCr for processing. If the Color and Tint controls can't be used when you send RGB to a display, the display passes the RGB video without processing.

All that said, some displays look better when you send RGB vs YCbCr -- in my experience it's about 5%-10% of displays just plain make better looking images when you send RGB. But you have to check every brand/model and even year. I've seen a Sony XBR panel look better when receiving RGB one year, but the following year XBRs look the same with RGB or YCbCr. Maybe 20-25% of displays look best when you send YCbCr and the remainder look the same whether they receive RGB or YCbCr.

When it comes to 4:4:2 vs 4:4:4... I've never seen a difference, though 4:2:2 is natively 12 bits (regardless of what you've read or heard elsewhere) unless you set the disc player to a lower number of bits. 4:4:4 won't be more than 10 bits and possibly not more than 8 bits so ramp patterns may look better in 4:2:2 mode than 4:4:4 mode. Discs are encoded with "8 bit" 4:2:0 (actual resolution is a bit less than 8 bits because of the chroma decimation required by this format). Disc players typically default to 12 bit 4:2:2 output (the HDMI standard for YCbCr HD). So the disc player converts 8-bit 4:2:0 data to 12 bit 4:2:2 data (typically, unless you change some settings).

Bottom line... your best choice most of the time is YCbCr 4:2:2 -- but every display should be checked to make sure it doesn't look better when you send RGB. If you send RGB and the display looks better, use RGB.

Consumer video uses digital levels 16-235 for Y and 16-240 for Cb and Cr. There should be no such thing as 0-255 for YCbCr formats. RGB can be sent as 16-235 or 0-255. Computer sources (computer generated, not online streaming) generally use 0-255 while anything consumer or streaming will generally be 16-235. Unfortunately, most disc players use some non-descriptive term to differentiate the 2 RGB modes... RGB, RGB Standard, RGB Normal, etc. typically indicate 16-235 which is appropriate for consumer video sources and streamed video. If the mode is labeled extended, full, enhanced or something similar, that typically means 0-255.
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post #9 of 24 Old 01-11-2013, 10:11 PM
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Doug you are the man!
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post #10 of 24 Old 01-11-2013, 11:18 PM
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That is a great post by Doug.

If I could sticky that as the answer forever on the YCC v RGB topic, I would.

Sometimes I think we'd do well with a Q/A style site ala the stackexhange websites (http://stackexchange.com/)

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post #11 of 24 Old 01-14-2013, 11:08 PM
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Does ycc4:4:4 full rgb setting on cablebox only work Correctly if you change the input to pc mode on the tv ?
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post #12 of 24 Old 01-15-2013, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

Does ycc4:4:4 full rgb setting on cablebox only work Correctly if you change the input to pc mode on the tv ?
YCC and RGB are mutually exclusive.

RGB doesn't really have a 4:4:4, since it's not chroma sub-sampled, it's just always full resolution.

I've never seen a cable box that does PC levels, but how your display negotiates an RGB output is something that is specific to that display. There are no rules of thumb, you just have to test and see how it works on your set.

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post #13 of 24 Old 01-15-2013, 12:54 PM
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You didn't mention the model Pioneer player that you have, but you can drop over to www.hometheaterhifi.com and see if I've reviewed it, as if I have in the past couple years it'll test 4:2:2, 4:4:4 and RGB output. While they should all be correct, on some they are not (the player I just got in here does 422 and 444 correct, and totally screws up the RGB conversion). Even if I didn't test the exact model, a lot of them use the same output chips and firmware code, they just vary on features (WiFi, 2D to 3D conversion, etc...) so you can see how other Pioneers do. Bottom line is that if you can do 4:2:2 and it looks the same as the other modes, stick with 4:2:2.
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post #14 of 24 Old 01-15-2013, 05:46 PM
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Thanks sotti . I thought pc mode did not look as good for regular tv as movie mode here, but I did not fiddle much with it in pc mode.

Seems like very very small differences between them.
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post #15 of 24 Old 02-10-2014, 09:28 AM
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Bump!

 

I've got some problems with my Philips TV. This is from a thread I started a couple of days ago:

 

 

I own a Philips PFL4506H/12 CCFL type LCD screen. The TV is great for it's price, accept one REALLY annoying thing.

 

Even with the sharpness setting at zero the TV adds A LOT of sharpening. The only solution to this problem is to activate the PC mode (the PC mode fixes the sharpening issues). But instead the picture becomes waaay too dark, the PC mode won't allow me to change the gamma. 

 

What shall I do? Service menu? Any other Philips owners with these problems?

 

I don't know if it's the gamma setting or color coding, but the picture seems to be a bit dull and lifeless. Especially during darker scenes...

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post #16 of 24 Old 02-11-2014, 09:28 AM
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Disabling all of the Philip's traditional tendency for processing (PixelPerfect and such) doesn't do the trick?
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post #17 of 24 Old 02-12-2014, 07:45 AM
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No, everything is disabled...:( 

 

The PC mode deactivates all processing!

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post #18 of 24 Old 02-12-2014, 11:45 AM
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I know, but it also changes your gamma apparently, which you then cannot control so I offered turning off or zeroing all processing by hand, not resorting to PC mode...I have a Philips BD player and I am certain I can defeat artifcial sharpening by zeroing the sharpness control ....

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post #19 of 24 Old 02-12-2014, 12:54 PM
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I see, but I'm afraid that there's no way around this "bug". It's a trade off between incorrect gamma or ugly edge enhancement.

 

Thanks for your replies btw! :) 

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post #20 of 24 Old 02-12-2014, 06:23 PM
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It's not likely to be gamma. It's more likely to be that the TV is operating in 16-235 mode but PC mode puts the TV in 0-255 mode. When that happens, PC mode puts black at 0 while the TV is putting black at 16. That means all steps from 0-16 are displayed as black on the TV causing a severe loss of shadow detail and it makes shadows above 16 too dark also.

Some disc players allow you to specify RGB mode and 0-255 levels (sometimes called expanded or enhanced or full range or something like that if they aren't using the digital levels/numbers. If you set your disc player to RGB 0-255 mode while the TV is in PC mode and your images look correct/normal, you just found the problem. If you can't set your disc player (or cable/satellite box) to RGB 0-255 mode then you can't really tell what is going on without test patterns that show, say 0-50 digital steps and 220-255 digital steps for the bright end of the scale. If you have a pattern like that, it's pretty easy to tell whether you are experiencing mismatched digital levels. The TV may even have an RGB 16-235 option (might be called limited or normal or standard or something like that if they aren't using 16-235) or RGB 0-255 option. If so, try the other option that you aren't using currently.

PC video is not normally darker than consumer video... but there is that issue with making sure the TV and sources are all expecting video with the correct ranges and mismatching the video range does look bad...shadows block up and highlights tend to blow out. Images don't look very nice at all when there's a mismatch.

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post #21 of 24 Old 02-12-2014, 11:30 PM
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Thought of the above bit figured the TV would auto-detect or assume that input is video range if the signal is YCbCr, as is the case for many if not most players

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post #22 of 24 Old 02-13-2014, 03:07 AM
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Thanks for helping me guys! 

 

There's a setting on my BD player (Samsung BD-D5100) that's called "HDMI Format". There are two choices; "TV" or "Monitor". But "Monitor" is greyed out...

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post #23 of 24 Old 02-13-2014, 04:48 PM
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Every source and TV is supposed to be able to switch between RGB and YCbCr --- usually that is true, but I do occasionally see displays that just go dumb when the signal format changes... when that hapens, you typically have images that are all green, magenta, and orange with no black or white.

But TVs generally cannot tell the difference between RGB 16-235 and RGB 0-255.... you have to figure out what's going on and pick the right mode in either the TV or source component, or both.

Also, YCbCr is ALWAYS supposed to be 16-235 and never 0-255, though I've seen rare cases where changing the 0-255 or 16-235 also changes YCbCr even though that should not be possible.

So there are 3 "legal" video signal formats... RGB 16-235, RGB 0-255, and YCbCr (which probably has options for 422 and 444 which shouldn't make any real difference unless you are receiving video from a computer where 444 tends to look better even though that should not happen -- 422 and 444 refer to how much color information is removed from the signal.... 444 removes no color information, 422 removes half the color information... but Blu-ray discs are encoded with 420 that eliminates 3/4 of the color information so using 422 or 444 when playing Blu-ray discs should give the same image appearance... you already removed the color data on the Blu-ray disc so you can't really put it back once it is gone... you can just "fill holes" with data that seems like it might be the right data, but it's a guess because the color data was already removed when the Blu-ray disc master was created.

Re the Samsung disc player with "Monitor" grayed out... that will happen if you are in YCbCr mode. Not sure that should happen if you are in RGB mode unless the TV is "telling" the disc player to NOT send 0-255 through the handshake information exchanged between the 2 devices. This assumes "Monitor" means 0-255 mode and the other choice means "16-235" mode. 0-255 is supposed to be illegal for YCbCr so if the disc player is in YCbCr mode, it may very well gray-out the 0-255 option.

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post #24 of 24 Old 02-18-2014, 04:08 AM
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Quote:

Re the Samsung disc player with "Monitor" grayed out... that will happen if you are in YCbCr mode. Not sure that should happen if you are in RGB mode unless the TV is "telling" the disc player to NOT send 0-255 through the handshake information exchanged between the 2 devices. This assumes "Monitor" means 0-255 mode and the other choice means "16-235" mode. 0-255 is supposed to be illegal for YCbCr so if the disc player is in YCbCr mode, it may very well gray-out the 0-255 option.

 

Ok! That's great news.

 

Thank you very much for your input! You're the man! :cool:

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