LUT with a disk - possible? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Dont really know enough about this subject, still getting to grips with the basics of calibration, wondered though - is it possible to perform a LUT calibration with a disk?

Thanks

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post #2 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 07:22 AM
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You need two things, the patterns for all the different colors within the lut, and a possibility to store the calibrations for all those colors. THere are no tv's with the capacity for storing all those color calibrations, at most they store only one point per color, 3 primairy (RGB) and three secondairy (YCM), then white, and black, and basically thats it.
For a 5x5x5 lut y ou have 125 different calibrated points within the LUT box.

So, in theory, if you have a tv that can store 125 points, and you have all the patterns on a disc, yes.

In practicality, you can only store those pionts on a video processor of some kind, and they then come with the patterns build in, and then they have the possibility of doing it automaticaly.

Can you imagine doing a brightness, contrast, sharpness, 2 or 10 point greyscale, and THEN do a 125 different colors by hand? And then do it all again to check if they affected eachother?
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post #3 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 10:15 AM
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you could, you need to account for gamma for the saturation sweeps, meaning you will have sections for preset gamma i.e. one for 2.2, one for 2.35 etc

Ted had done this and is working on a disc for Lightspace.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446386/abl-effects-measured-for-comparison/90#post_22828888

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post #4 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 10:31 AM
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Do you mean for a regular tv and without a videoprocessor to store the individual cube point?
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post #5 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 10:56 AM
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I took his question as, can a pattern disc be manually used for the LUT profiling/calibration (generic, no processor or display model given).. I assume he was thinking of creating a disc since he has been working on one with 2%/6.5% sized windows...

Of course the levels would have to match to the processor/display LUT setup, the Lumagen Radiances are pretty much set, others may have more flexibility.

It can be done.

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post #6 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 11:03 AM
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Ah yes, I took it as "can I do a lut with just a disc and my tv as it is" smile.gif
It can be done, if you are willing to put in the time wink.gif.
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post #7 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 12:07 PM
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I'm performing 3D-Cube Calibrations for one month already using my LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk, The software has a mode that is used mainly at post-production applications that you can select the time that each pattern is displayed, this is called DIP mode in LightSpace.

So after tons of work, i have create a disk that is sync perfect with LightSpace Software with a very simple way as you have only to click 'ok' with your mouse at LightSpace window to start the measurements the same time while at your TV screen you see a the countdown's last frame.



There's 10-Point Cube (1000 Colors) Chapters inside the disk and 17-Point Cube (4913 Colors) Chapters also, with time per color selection of 3sec (For Klein Meters) 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12...........

To find out which time chapter is for your display there is a Time Finder Chapter that displays the darkest colors of the selected LUT resolution and LightSpace tells you what reading was the longest, so it's very easy to decide .....

For iD3 from my test using Pioneer KURO with the deepest black as Dark readings takes longer time, the correct time for me was 6 sec per color. That means 1000 color for 1 hour 40 minutes and 4913 colors for 8 hours and 11 minutes by iD3, if you have Klein then you will need 4 Hours for 4913 Colors (using 3 sec, Chapter).

Of cource if you use LightSpace Internal Pattern Generator these times are shorter.

More details about that disk will be avaialble very soon.


This is an example of measuring the Final LUT loaded to my eecolor after performing a 17-Point Cube Calibration using my Disk.

BTW the difference im experiencing after 4913 color calibration is something it's not visible at the above charts, since the charts are from another software company and they measure only 30 colors and 21-Step Grayscale.

Using CalMAN for measuring the final LUT I had the same dE after measuring a 5-Point Cube (125 Colors), 10-Point Cube (1000 Colors) or 17-Point Cube (4913 Colors) so measuring with CalMAN or ChromaPure the final results CAN'T show you the difference.

As i have write to previous posts, professional industry software like LightSpace, THX CineCube and TrueLight, they don't have any dE report, they calculate the corretion LUT preventing problems that can appear by extreme corrections, they fix what it can be fixed without producing new problems to the image, so there is no need to check the dE of 4913 colors after the profilling......

I have perform 8x 10-Point Cube + 6x 17Point Cube Calibrations so far using my disk with different display settings and always the final results are the same using CalMAN Charts.

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post #8 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Using CalMAN for measuring the final LUT I had the same dE after measuring a 5-Point Cube (125 Colors), 10-Point Cube (1000 Colors) or 17-Point Cube (4913 Colors) so measuring with CalMAN or ChromaPure the final results CAN'T show you the difference.

You could remeasure it in CalMAN at any cube size to validate the result.

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post #9 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You could remeasure it in CalMAN at any cube size to validate the result.

As i know, Max CalMAN capabilty is 5-Point Saturation, 20-Step Luminance + Color Checker, to display these to some Charts, correct?

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post #10 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 12:36 PM
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I think it's a good idea Ted, thank you for putting all your effort into this...

I'm curious, have you compared the final output (via re-Profiling two times, one using Lightspace's internal pattern generator, one using your disc)?

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post #11 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You could remeasure it in CalMAN at any cube size to validate the result.



Left Side of the Picture is showing My PRE-Calibration Report of 16 measurements per Color + 17 Grayscale Readings that gives total 113 Readings at the CIE Chart/
Right Side of the Picture is showing 4913 PRE-Calibration Readings....

How is possible to see this throu CalMAN, i will need 4-5 hours to measure all of these colors from CalMAN looooooool

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post #12 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 12:49 PM
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Thank you Turbe, i don't trust any pattern generator, any HDMI Out, any Player.

Consumer players are not accurate, calibrations is about to calibrate the chain, so if the player has error at it's output, the final LUT will fix this error.
If you use a 1.000.000$ NASA Grade Pattern Generator, and it say to you that you are accurate, when you will connect you player, then the player will introduce the error that will scew you image.

This is the reality, i know it's hard for those who own/selling pattern generators but that's the reason i created my first (unreleased to public) disk with patterns and back in 2011, and that's why i will release that 4913 Color Disk in a few days. This time it will available free to ones who contact me, and have LightSpace also, since it's only can be used there.

These are examples of Consumer Blu-Ray Players that tested using Quantum Data HDMI Analyser:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/september-2011/panasonic-dmp-bdt210-blu-ray-player/panasonic-dmp-bdt210-hdmi-benchmark-tables-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/november-2011/lg-bd670-blu-ray-player/lg-bd670-hdmi-results-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/december-2011/samsung-bd-d6500-blu-ray-player/samsung-bd-d6500-hdmi-analysis-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/july-2011/samsung-bd-d5500-blu-ray-player/samsung-bd-d5500-hdmi-test-results-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/june-2011/sony-bdp-s580-blu-ray-player/sony-bdp-s580-hdmi-results-lg.jpg

As you see , all players are changing the signal at their output, so calibrating using a will give you the most accurate way of calibrating a consumer setup, calibrating and correcting errors to the whole chain.

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post #13 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 12:59 PM
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yes, I'm familiar with those tests by Chris.. I also have a BDT210 here which is bit perfect with proper config.

That's why I think this is a good idea, to check with the player and the disc...

Chris was also involved with verifying the Accupel 5000's reference output.

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post #14 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 01:56 PM
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This is all very interesting but quite a bit above my head, at this point. I guess it's a good thing I have a Panasonic BDT-210 cool.gif
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post #15 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

I guess it's a good thing I have a Panasonic BDT-210 cool.gif
yep biggrin.gif

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post #16 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 02:16 PM
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What Ted is saying is totally correct - if you play your films via a specific DVD or Blu-Ray player it is always best to use that as the patch generator, as the calibration will account for any inaccuracies in the image path, including any inaccuracies with the DVD or Blu-Ray player.

The results are therefore totally accurate for any 'films' being played via the same DVD or Blu-Ray player.

With professional post-facilities they often use the DI (Digital Intermediate) grading system to play the patches in a very similar way, again calibrating the whole image chain.

This is why DIP mode exists within LightSpace CMS.

Also, as LightSpace separates profiling from calibration you do not need to have different profile sequences for different gamma settings, just for the number of patches required for the profiling (Quick Profile, Cube or Hybrid) and the correct duration for the probe/display combination.

This does make LightSpace very easy to use in this DIP mode (DIP stands for Display Independent Profiling, when the display is being fed the calibration patches totally separately from LightSpace).

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post #17 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 03:05 PM
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As the data shows, it is more complicated than just "Consumer players are not accurate."

Most of the players were quite accurate using the YCbCr 444, Normal output mode. The problems arose with RGB output and other custom modes. The serious problems discovered with the Sony players have now been fixed with a firmware update.

So, you can trust the output of consumer Blu-ray players, but you have to be careful about the output mode you select.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Thank you Turbe, i don't trust any pattern generator, any HDMI Out, any Player.

Consumer players are not accurate, calibrations is about to calibrate the chain, so if the player has error at it's output, the final LUT will fix this error.
If you use a 1.000.000$ NASA Grade Pattern Generator, and it say to you that you are accurate, when you will connect you player, then the player will introduce the error that will scew you image.

This is the reality, i know it's hard for those who own/selling pattern generators but that's the reason i created my first (unreleased to public) disk with patterns and back in 2011, and that's why i will release that 4913 Color Disk in a few days. This time it will available free to ones who contact me, and have LightSpace also, since it's only can be used there.

These are examples of Consumer Blu-Ray Players that tested using Quantum Data HDMI Analyser:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/september-2011/panasonic-dmp-bdt210-blu-ray-player/panasonic-dmp-bdt210-hdmi-benchmark-tables-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/november-2011/lg-bd670-blu-ray-player/lg-bd670-hdmi-results-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/december-2011/samsung-bd-d6500-blu-ray-player/samsung-bd-d6500-hdmi-analysis-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/july-2011/samsung-bd-d5500-blu-ray-player/samsung-bd-d5500-hdmi-test-results-lg.jpg

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/images/stories/2011/june-2011/sony-bdp-s580-blu-ray-player/sony-bdp-s580-hdmi-results-lg.jpg

As you see , all players are changing the signal at their output, so calibrating using a will give you the most accurate way of calibrating a consumer setup, calibrating and correcting errors to the whole chain.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
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post #18 of 24 Old 01-16-2013, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I think it's a good idea Ted, thank you for putting all your effort into this...

I'm curious, have you compared the final output (via re-Profiling two times, one using Lightspace's internal pattern generator, one using your disc)?

I have learned to set up my computer so that the LightSpace internal patterns are displayed accurately. Other than the discussed DIP mode there is a Closed Loop mode which is meter specific, in my case a K10-A. I find it interesting to watch the slow dark reads verses the bam bam bam high luminance reads. A 4913 point profile takes about 3 1/2 hours.

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post #19 of 24 Old 01-17-2013, 06:56 AM
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I have to say we we do also use Closed Loop mode as our main method of choice, as this is the fastest way to calibrate, and gets the best out of each different probe used.
We use DIP mode only when there is no other alternative, such as when the display has no HDMI/Display Port capability.

It is also very simple to set-up a PC (laptop usually) to have clean HDMI out that is very accurate.
We have used many. many different laptops/PCs/graphics cards, and have not found any that cannot easily be set to be HDMI accurate.

The new Hybrid profiling mode will also greatly speed-up 3D Cube based profiling.

biggrin.gif

(Ted will have to add that to his disc too!!!)

Steve

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post #20 of 24 Old 01-17-2013, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

I have to say we we do also use Closed Loop mode as our main method of choice, as this is the fastest way to calibrate, and gets the best out of each different probe used.
We use DIP mode only when there is no other alternative, such as when the display has no HDMI/Display Port capability.

It is also very simple to set-up a PC (laptop usually) to have clean HDMI out that is very accurate.
We have used many. many different laptops/PCs/graphics cards, and have not found any that cannot easily be set to be HDMI accurate.

The new Hybrid profiling mode will also greatly speed-up 3D Cube based profiling.

biggrin.gif

(Ted will have to add that to his disc too!!!)

Steve


From 31/12/2012 its ready, only needs encoding (~1 week)... The disk is 8 GB so far, there is no space left, so it will be available 2 different disks, one with Hybrid mode and one without Hybrid.

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post #21 of 24 Old 01-17-2013, 09:26 AM
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Ted, don't do the Hybrid mode yet - we have not finalised the profile format...

Should be finalised next week!

biggrin.gif

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post #22 of 24 Old 01-17-2013, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

Ted, don't do the Hybrid mode yet - we have not finalised the profile format...

Should be finalised next week!

biggrin.gif

I haven't test it yet, i have only track down the pattern order that LightSpace requests them, i have made the patterns, all the required files are ready for encoding wink.gif

I have tested the normal disk Chapters for 17-Point Cube Chapters (4913 Colors) for DIP mode with 6,7,8,9 Sec per color without any problem so far, just to be sure that all is perfect wink.gif

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post #23 of 24 Old 01-17-2013, 03:05 PM
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The Hybrid mode patterns will be changing, so hold off for a week...

biggrin.gif

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post #24 of 24 Old 01-17-2013, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

The Hybrid mode patterns will be changing, so hold off for a week...

biggrin.gif

The Disk with Hybrid mode will be ready the next month... I'm still encoding the first one wink.gif

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