Calman 5 + C6 + Radiance Mini 3d calibration help please - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 67 Old 01-22-2013, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Someone please point a newbie in this area to the correct thread AND post number for me to calibrate using autocal. thanks!
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post #2 of 67 Old 01-22-2013, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wes k View Post

Someone please point a newbie in this area to the correct thread AND post number for me to calibrate using autocal. thanks!

As one of the developers for CalMAN I might be able to help, but I'd need a more specific question.

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post #3 of 67 Old 01-23-2013, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I am basically just looking for some general step by step instructions. First, do i point the c6 at the screen or at the projector with the diffuser in place? do i use 11 grey scale points? 21? then after all that and after running the 3d auto cal, how do i save it to the radiance?

thanks so much!

Wes
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post #4 of 67 Old 01-24-2013, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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post #5 of 67 Old 01-24-2013, 09:11 PM
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If you walk through the introduction workflow you'll get a good idea how the application works.

Once you're familiar enough to understand the basics of the app and calibration.

If you have the enthusiast license then you will want to use the 3D LUT workflow. It will help you get the most out of the radiance including using it's 125 point calibration. If you have Control or Basic then you'll be able to use something like the HT Enthusiast Workflow to walk through calibrating the radiance.

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post #6 of 67 Old 01-24-2013, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wes k View Post

I am basically just looking for some general step by step instructions. First, do i point the c6 at the screen or at the projector with the diffuser in place? do i use 11 grey scale points? 21? then after all that and after running the 3d auto cal, how do i save it to the radiance?

thanks so much!

Wes

Just to add to Joel's post.

First, if you are using a radiance 3D LUT don't use the new Beta, it doesn't work with the radiance. Use the 5.0.4 version.
Second, the calibration (if Calman is working as it should) gets saved automatically in whatever CMS (0-6) you have set in Calman Display (radiance) settings.
I would think you would want to use the 21 point grayscale.
Can't help with setting your C6 with a projector.

ss
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post #7 of 67 Old 01-25-2013, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Just to add to Joel's post.

First, if you are using a radiance 3D LUT don't use the new Beta

Until you're comfortable with the software I wouldn't use the beta software. Our beta software can be quite rough around the edges occasionally.

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post #8 of 67 Old 01-25-2013, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Until you're comfortable with the software I wouldn't use the beta software. Our beta software can be quite rough around the edges occasionally.

It really makes no difference if you are comfortable or not with calman. The fact remains that 'We haven't gotten to the Radiance yet. Should be by the next build" ie calman will not work with the Radiance.

Just like the Beta's for version 5.0.4 and using the LUT cube workflow did not work to calibrate the Panasonic VT50's Along with the problems you where and still are having with the Radiance, just to name a few problems.

ss
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post #9 of 67 Old 01-25-2013, 08:06 AM
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I work with beta testers as part of my job. The biggest downside is having to listen to the whining. As I explain to them once our software or hardware enters the beta stage it is more or less complete as far as included features for the pending release version. It is now at the stage of testing these feature to determine if they work as designed, if not implementing fixes to resolve the issues and overall testing to insure nothing that previously worked has been broken. If this does not fit with the usage pattern of the person using the software/hardware they are best off sticking with official release versions.
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post #10 of 67 Old 01-25-2013, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

It really makes no difference if you are comfortable or not with calman. The fact remains that 'We haven't gotten to the Radiance yet. Should be by the next build" ie calman will not work with the Radiance.

Nah I mean, that the beta software is frequently littered with fatal crashes.

If you're a new user, the last thing you want is your first experience to be with a buggy version of the software.

The radiance works fine, the grayscale results post cube are just a little more off than they used to be. Not in anyway un-usable or broken.

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post #11 of 67 Old 01-25-2013, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The radiance works fine, the grayscale results post cube are just a little more off than they used to be. Not in anyway un-usable or broken.

The Cube for the Radiance works but has not been optimized yet as we have for all other devices. With our new VirtualCube interface we have found the Radiance 3D LUT space is not always linear so we have a bit more work to do to account for that.

As for CalMAN betas they are always tested in house and with a small group of volunteers. Until we are happy they work but now need a much larger audience to find those last bugs so we have a stable release. Of my some 30+ years of designing software CalMAN is by far the most complex product to run in QA. We support well over a 120 different hardware devices that all have changing firmware updates over time. But in any case the beta build we just put up on Wednesday is well behaved and with a few minor tweaks is going to be release candidate ready.

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post #12 of 67 Old 01-25-2013, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Nah I mean, that the beta software is frequently littered with fatal crashes.

If you're a new user, the last thing you want is your first experience to be with a buggy version of the software.

The radiance works fine, the grayscale results post cube are just a little more off than they used to be. Not in anyway un-usable or broken.

Maybe you should try Beta 1077 using the mini 3D on a cube calibration 21 point GS. If you think that is a good example of what Calman can do and acceptable to you, then maybe we should take a good hard look at Steve's software LS.

Anyway other than what Derick is saying about the problem with these two beta's, It looks to me that you guys are headed in the right direction and improving Calman.

fyi, I suggested to that new user not to use these Beta's, so I don't understand what your post is all about.

ss
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post #13 of 67 Old 01-25-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Maybe you should try Beta 1077 using the mini 3D on a cube calibration 21 point GS. If you think that is a good example of what Calman can do and acceptable to you, then maybe we should take a good hard look at Steve's software LS.

dE's of 3 for grayscale isn't the end of the world.

I've said repeatedly that if you want the best performance with the radiance use 5.0.4, until we have an official 5.1. Beta software ALWAYS has a downside, and we documented that the radiance isn't optimized for the new VirutalLUT right from the start.

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post #14 of 67 Old 01-25-2013, 08:26 PM
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We did release a new beta of 5.1 that include both upgrades to autocal across the board and a direct interface to the lumagen.

It still has some issues so I would only recommend it for users are comfortable using rough around the edges software.

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post #15 of 67 Old 01-25-2013, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

We did release a new beta of 5.1 that include both upgrades to autocal across the board and a direct interface to the lumagen.

It still has some issues so I would only recommend it for users are comfortable using rough around the edges software.

Good I will give this new Beta a try, Derek says that the Radiance's "issues" are mostly worked out for the better.
I am happy to help better your software, as long as there is a good chance of it bettering my results.

btw, we both know that just because you get a "average" dE of around 3 doesn't mean its a top notch calibration.

ss
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post #16 of 67 Old 01-25-2013, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

btw, we both know that just because you get a "average" dE of around 3 doesn't mean its a top notch calibration.

A dE of 3 for grayscale is adequate, but is definitely not optimal.

If you want to see the absolute best we can do, turn down the dE target to 0. There are a host of changes for AutoCal's algorithm so you will get the best result you've ever seen from CalMAN. Granted it usually only takes about 3 or 4 reads to get under a dE of 0.5, but it'll take 8-12 reads to get to 0.3. I can't say the trade off is woth it, but if you want that last click or two of accuracy 1092 can deliver it.

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post #17 of 67 Old 01-25-2013, 11:59 PM
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CalMAN 5.1.0 build 1092 beta is now available for download here:

Business
http://www.spectracal.com/downloads/files/Betas/CalMAN510Business_b1092-0125.5.msi

Home Theater
http://www.spectracal.com/downloads/files/Betas/CalMAN510HT_b1092-0125.5.msi

This is the best you will ever see your Radiance 3D LUT (Cube) calibrated.

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post #18 of 67 Old 01-26-2013, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

A dE of 3 for grayscale is adequate, but is definitely not optimal.

If you want to see the absolute best we can do, turn down the dE target to 0. There are a host of changes for AutoCal's algorithm so you will get the best result you've ever seen from CalMAN. Granted it usually only takes about 3 or 4 reads to get under a dE of 0.5, but it'll take 8-12 reads to get to 0.3. I can't say the trade off is woth it, but if you want that last click or two of accuracy 1092 can deliver it.

Yes I use a dE of 0.5, and have advised other to do the same.

Ok, Just ran the new Beta 5.1. I haven't viewed any thing yet, I just wanted to post when these things are fresh in my mind.

21 Point grayscale took 20 min to complete and about 180 reads. Normal is about 8 min and 60 reads. I have NP with this longer time and more reads.
The GS in the lower IRE's had about a dE of about 3. However after running the cube the "verify calibration" showed the GS was at 0.2 and the chart showed very little error.

Gamut luminance seem to have a little problem with Blue showing a error of about 8, all the rest where about 4 or less. But this is better than it has been with 5.0.4.
LUT cube took about 22 min to complete.
The "verify calibration" showed the colors hitting there mark pretty well.

So on paper it sure looks like the LUT cube workflow and my Mini 3D are starting to play nice. Also check to make sure the CMS and grayscale had been written to my Mini, all looks well there.

I will add to this post after viewing some video.

ss

Update;

It looks like your RGB balance needs more tuning in the lower IRE's. My guess is with the Luma/Y factor.

The Gamut and luminance is realty nice for the LUT cube, but it almost looks as if the Gamut/luminance is being used to help reset the RGB/gamma balance.in the GS.
Im sure you (Joel) will be able to correct this in no time. Thanks.
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post #19 of 67 Old 01-26-2013, 09:41 AM
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Their should be two *.clgfx files in your C:\Users\USER NAME\Documents\SpectraCal\CalMAN 5 for Business[home]\LUTs\Log folder.

One for the GS run and one for the cube AutoCal.

If you want to email them to me I should know exactly what happened during the AutoCal Process.

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post #20 of 67 Old 01-26-2013, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Their should be two *.clgfx files in your C:\Users\USER NAME\Documents\SpectraCal\CalMAN 5 for Business[home]\LUTs\Log folder.

One for the GS run and one for the cube AutoCal.

If you want to email them to me I should know exactly what happened during the AutoCal Process.

Emailed.

Thanks.

ss
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post #21 of 67 Old 01-26-2013, 07:17 PM
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Version 5.10, with a mini-3D automatic calibration, the speed significantly improve 5X5X5 only 30 minutes,
Do not know this version is the colorbox improved how?
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post #22 of 67 Old 01-26-2013, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by crestron View Post

Do not know this version is the colorbox improved how?

Should be similar improvements over 5.1.0.108x for the colorbox.

For the ColorBox compared to 5.0.4, it's drastically different, we use our new VirtualLUT technology to speed the processes up tremendously, you should see radiance like speed for a 5x5x5 which makes doing our higher density stuff feasible.

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post #23 of 67 Old 01-26-2013, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Emailed.

Thanks.

ss

The cube stuff looked great.

I'll need to dig a bit deeper on what happened on grayscale, but hopefully all that data should result in a shorter run in the next release.

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post #24 of 67 Old 01-27-2013, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Should be similar improvements over 5.1.0.108x for the colorbox.

For the ColorBox compared to 5.0.4, it's drastically different, we use our new VirtualLUT technology to speed the processes up tremendously, you should see radiance like speed for a 5x5x5 which makes doing our higher density stuff feasible.

Very true. We have been able to significantly speed up our support for all the 3D LUT processors we support, Radiance, Davio, Pluto, HDLink, eeColor and ColorBox. With CalMAN 5.1 we now only need to write to the lut device twice, once to set the 3D LUT to unity and second to write the final result. In fact we are the only product in the market that can calculate, generate and verify a 3D LUT device directly with a single button press.

Joel "sotti" and the rest of my dev team have really hit one out of the park on this one smile.gif

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post #25 of 67 Old 01-27-2013, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The cube stuff looked great.

I'll need to dig a bit deeper on what happened on grayscale, but hopefully all that data should result in a shorter run in the next release.

I just sent a email to you saying.

I ran a 2D and 3D (stereo) LUT 21 point GS, these are the log files.

The 2D GS took about 8 min 76 reads (that's normal for me set to 0.5)

The 3D GS took about 15 min with maybe 170 reads. ()

Results are very good, ran my S&M disc everything checked out well. Viewed a 3D (stereo) movie looked great. I will view a 2 D movie next.

The only thing I did different is bypassed my Yamaha YSP 2200 and ran my HDMI cable direct to my VT50 from my Oppo BDP 95. I also set Gamma to 2.2 for the 2D calibration, last time I had the Gamma set to 2.21.

Both of these 2D cube calibrations, a popup came on screen asking if it was ok to change white to 29.9 for the Blue Chanel. In both cases I hit OK.

Thanks,

ss
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post #26 of 67 Old 01-27-2013, 09:56 AM
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In fact we are the only product in the market that can calculate, generate and verify a 3D LUT device directly with a single button press.

regarding the statement above: that is incorrect, Lightspace has been doing this with all supported LUT boxes forever, including the Mini.

but thank you for improving CM and the workflow with the Mini, dearly needed.

- M

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post #27 of 67 Old 01-27-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

regarding the statement above: that is incorrect, Lightspace has been doing this with all supported LUT boxes forever, including the Mini.

- M
Calibrating for example a 10-Point Cube:

1.000 Colors = 1.000 Reads from LightSpace....
1.000 Colors = 2.500-4.000 Reads or more from CalMAN...

This shows exactly the technology gap between proffessional vs. consumer software solutions, since professional world solutions from LightSpace CMS ,THX CineCube, FilmLight Truelight are separating the profilling from calibration, these 3 solutions are working with that way....

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post #28 of 67 Old 01-27-2013, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

This shows exactly the technology gap between proffessional vs. consumer software solutions, since professional world solutions from LightSpace CMS ,THX CineCube, FilmLight Truelight are separating the profilling from calibration, these 3 solutions are working with that way....

Say what Ted?

Have you even played with the lastest CalMAN stuff, we do higher resolution 17(17x on luminance) with a 6 point saturation cube in about 700 reads (1.8->2.5 reads per point, on 276 points).

It's faster and better than what you'd get from a 1000 reads of lightspace, because every point can be adjusted to a dE of less than 1 (assuming you have a fully saturated gamut).

We do intelligent point selection so we don't just brute force the cube. We used advanced algorithms to interpolate all the data up to the full 65 point cube for the highest resolution output.

Also for something like the radiance that only had 5 points of control it means we can calibrate that size LUT with ~250 reads or a quarter of what's required for a profiling app. Not to mention when CalMAN is done you have the validated results of the points we adjusted. With other products you have to re-read the values.

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post #29 of 67 Old 01-27-2013, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

regarding the statement above: that is incorrect, Lightspace has been doing this with all supported LUT boxes forever, including the Mini.

but thank you for improving CM and the workflow with the Mini, dearly needed.

- M

No it doesn't it can't profile, upload and validate and give you dE results from a single click.

Try again.

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post #30 of 67 Old 01-27-2013, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Say what Ted?

Have you even played with the lastest CalMAN stuff, we do higher resolution 17(17x on luminance) with a 6 point saturation cube if about 600 reads.

It's faster and better than what you'd get from a 1000 reads of lightspace.

We do intelligent point selection so we don't just brute force the cube. Then we typically see 1.8->2.5 reads per calibration point. We used advanced algorithms to interpolate all the data up to the full 65 point cube for the highest resolution output.

Also for something like the radiance that only had 5 points of control it means we can calibrate that size LUT with ~250 reads or a quarter of what's required for a profiling app. Not to mention when CalMAN is done you have the validated results of the points we adjusted. With other products you have to re-read the values.

Interpollation is not calibration.... It doen't mean anything... I prefer actual reading with corrections... consumer displays has no so linear response...

If it's the same why 'hollywood standard' is 17-Point Cube (4913 Colors) as accepted calibration and not 2.000 or 3.500 or 4000 colors?

I can't test that 17 luminance/6 point saturation with my eecolor since i have CalMAN Enthousiast Licence, only ColorBox is supported... If you can add support for eecolor i will try it, to tell you how many reads it will take.

How many Color Points has this 17-Luminance 6-Saturation Calibration?

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