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Old 04-04-2016, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
On any display that drifts (or a probe that drifts) you should always use Drift Compensation, both when profiling and when generating any LUT.

Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, the extra readings that LightSpace takes for Drift Compensation calculation, these data's are saving inside to your measurement file.

Later when you will go to the ColorSpace Conversion, you can create a 3D LUT correction with or without Drift Compensation.

you will be able to see how Drift Compensation is improving your display performance when you will measure with the each correction 3D LUT file loaded.

Great! I was unsure about selecting it again in the Conversion module. I thought I might be duplicating the patches some how.

I will try it on Friday when my new PC arrives. Upgrading to 32 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD.

Thank you guys!
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Old 04-05-2016, 11:07 AM
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I ran two profiles (still using my HP Probook), 1,000 points each, and compared the results using Anisometric patches and Sequential patches. Again, only the 2-point adjustment was made on the display.

The plots on the CIE diagram show little difference.

Anisometric with Drift Compensation on left; Sequential and no Drift Comp on right.

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Old 04-05-2016, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
I ran two profiles (still using my HP Probook), 1,000 points each, and compared the results using Anisometric patches and Sequential patches. Again, only the 2-point adjustment was made on the display.

The plots on the CIE diagram show little difference.

Anisometric with Drift Compensation on left; Sequential and no Drift Comp on right.

Hi, the 2 measurement runs you performed were not necessary.

The only difference from 2 runs data is the patch sequence, to the right chart you used 1000 points and to the left chart 1000 points + some extra white readings.

The extra readings required for Drift Comp. are not visible to any CIE Chart or dE report when you look just the measurement file.

To view and measure the difference you have to generate 2 colorspace conversions from the left measurement file (the one which you took the extra drift comp. readings), with and without drift comp. and then measure both correction files with Quick Profiling.

The right chart profiling data it's useless for any test of drift comp.

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Old 04-05-2016, 11:30 AM
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Ah, ok. I'll do that this evening.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:32 PM
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You're right, Ted. I discovered the Drift Compensation option only appears in Convert Color Space menu if I select the profile with Drift Compensation. Non-DC profiles do not have the DC option box.

So I did two conversions using the same pre-LUT DC enabled profile. One with DC on; one with DC off.
Here is the result using Quick Profile and Gamut Sweep.

Would you agree the gamut chart is excellent with or without DC? I think this proves the display/probe do not suffer from drift.

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Old 04-05-2016, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
.
.

Would you agree the gamut chart is excellent with or without DC? I think this proves the display/probe do not suffer from drift.
You have an OLED and K10a right? wouldn't you want to test this theory with a 17/21pt profile?

just wondering

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Old 04-05-2016, 05:26 PM
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Absolutely. That will be the real test!

I'm waiting on the new laptop for that cube size, though. My PC is slow and seems to stall at the end of a long sweep. Fulfillment date is Friday. I hope to have it before then.

Also, did you notice I filtered out the grayscale reading in the diagrams? I found with my display, the probe needs more time for accurate read of the darkest patches. I don't understand why LS is rushing the dark patches in closed loop mode. (As pointed out before, this could be a problem with input lag and has nothing to do with LS)

Anyway, I'm debating whether to add that time when I run the larger patch sequence. Even with the CR-100, it may take over 3 hours to complete a 21 cube profile.

Last edited by Pres2play; 04-05-2016 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:49 AM
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First, a Saturation sweep will not really show the impact of Drift Compensation, as there are not enough patches used.
To see the result of Drift Compensation you need to perform a large initial profile (with Drift active).
Make two LUTs from that profile - one with, and one without Drift enabled.

Use each LUT in-turn, and re-profile with a large patch set.
Then look at the dE value for each verification - all the dE values for every patch.
With Drift active you will see an improvement in the total dE.

But, for a quicker test to see if the display has drift just measure the same patch colour over an extended period of time and compare each reading.
You can do this with 'Measure and Log' mode, as this will record each reading in a CSV sheet.
(You can use the slider's 'Jump' function to change the patch in between each reading to prevent burn-in, etc., and use filtering on the CSV sheet to remove the readings for colours you are not interested in.)

And for Dark Patch measurement, within LS you can select 'Average Low Light Measurement' so 'slow' dark patch readings.
But, it is the CR-100 that actually set the time for reading any patch in Closed Loop mode (and DIP Mode!).
When the probe is satisfied it has a stable reading it tells LS to move on to the next patch.

You can control how quickly/slowly the probe integrates its reading using the values on the 'Options' page.

See: http://www.lightillusion.com/cr-100_probe.html
Info on the different probe settings can be seen on this page, and how the settings change the read times at different patch luma values.

All 'Average Low Light Measurement' does is force the probe to read the same patch a number of times to 'check' the dark readings...

Hope that helps.

Steve
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Old 04-06-2016, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
First, a Saturation sweep will not really show the impact of Drift Compensation, as there are not enough patches used.
To see the result of Drift Compensation you need to perform a large initial profile (with Drift active).
Make two LUTs from that profile - one with, and one without Drift enabled.

Use each LUT in-turn, and re-profile with a large patch set.
Then look at the dE value for each verification - all the dE values for every patch.
With Drift active you will see an improvement in the total dE.
That's coming up. I only use the small profiles as a quick test.
The dE values for every patch is available? Nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
But, for a quicker test to see if the display has drift just measure the same patch colour over an extended period of time and compare each reading.
You can do this with 'Measure and Log' mode, as this will record each reading in a CSV sheet.
(You can use the slider's 'Jump' function to change the patch in between each reading to prevent burn-in, etc., and use filtering on the CSV sheet to remove the readings for colours you are not interested in.)
The only time I notice a change is when I reduce the probe's Max Exposure setting. If I leave sensitive at 500 ms I get very consistent readings with Measure and Log.

I will try the 'Jump' function and 'filtering' option to see how that works. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
And for Dark Patch measurement, within LS you can select 'Average Low Light Measurement' so 'slow' dark patch readings.
But, it is the CR-100 that actually set the time for reading any patch in Closed Loop mode (and DIP Mode!).
When the probe is satisfied it has a stable reading it tells LS to move on to the next patch.
You can control how quickly/slowly the probe integrates its reading using the values on the 'Options' page.


See: http://www.lightillusion.com/cr-100_probe.html
Info on the different probe settings can be seen on this page, and how the settings change the read times at different patch luma values.
With a Max Exposure rate of 500 ms the probe is supposed to read a patch below 0.01 fL in 3.3 seconds. In Loop Mode, the dark patches are up for far less than 3 seconds. (How much time is that in nits?)

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Last edited by Pres2play; 04-06-2016 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
With a Max Exposure rate of 500 ms the probe is supposed to read a patch below 0.01 fL in 3.3 seconds. In Loop Mode, the dark patches are up for far less than 3 seconds. (How much time is that in nits?)
If the patch is nice an stable, and the syn frequency is well locked, the read time will be 'different'.
The value given are just examples, not definitive values.
All probe read times are defined by the probe - all LS does is set the probe parameters, it never controls that actual time any patch takes to read.
You can verify this with the CRIapp program measuring the same patches.

(And read time cannot be defined in nits... not actually sure what you are trying to ask there?)

Steve

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Old 04-07-2016, 12:47 AM
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I should have tried this sooner. I took a grayscale reading using four different 'Extra Delay Time' settings and the meter gave me the same result each time.

Grayscale plots with delay setting of 0.0, 0.75, 2.0 and 3.0 seconds



I was sure by adding extra delay that I had solved the earlier inaccuracies with the large profiles, but this test shows delay is not needed.
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
If the patch is nice an stable, and the syn frequency is well locked, the read time will be 'different'.
The value given are just examples, not definitive values.
All probe read times are defined by the probe - all LS does is set the probe parameters, it never controls that actual time any patch takes to read.
You can verify this with the CRIapp program measuring the same patches.

(And read time cannot be defined in nits... not actually sure what you are trying to ask there?)

Steve
5% gray, red, green and blue:
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
I should have tried this sooner. I took a grayscale reading using four different 'Extra Delay Time' settings and the meter gave me the same result each time.

Grayscale plots with delay setting of 0.0, 0.75, 2.0 and 3.0 seconds

I was sure by adding extra delay that I had solved the earlier inaccuracies with the large profiles, but this test shows delay is not needed.
'Extra Delay' just 'delays' the point at which the probe starts to read after LS has issues the command for the patch colour to be displayed - not how long the probe reads for.

This is to manage any delay or lag in the image chain.

What is will 'fix' is inaccurate readings caused if the patch change happens just after the probe has started to read.

You can easily 'see' the patch delay by watching the patch window on the LightSpace PC, and the patch on the display being profiled. Is there a visible difference in when the patches change...

Steve

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Old 04-07-2016, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
I should have tried this sooner. I took a grayscale reading using four different 'Extra Delay Time' settings and the meter gave me the same result each time.

Grayscale plots with delay setting of 0.0, 0.75, 2.0 and 3.0 seconds.

I was sure by adding extra delay that I had solved the earlier inaccuracies with the large profiles, but this test shows delay is not needed.
Hello,

Basically,

with Extra Delay Time = 0
1) LS sends the command to display the patch [and internally -may be- waits for a while (not user configurable)]
2) LS waits for 0s (this means Extra Delay Time = 0)
3) LS requests the probe to make the measurement
4) LS waits for the probe response [this duration is the time taken by the probe to make its measurement]
5) Once the probe response is received and the values recorded the process restarts to 1)

with Extra Delay Time = 0.75s for instance
1) LS sends the command to display the patch [and internally -may be- waits for a while (not user configurable)]
2) LS waits for 0.75s
3) LS requests the probe to make the measurement
4) LS waits for the probe response [this duration is the time taken by the probe to make its measurement]
5) Once the probe response is received and the values recorded the process restarts to 1)

For both cases and with the same patch, 4) will be performed with the same duration.

"Extra Delay Time" can improve the dE because it allows to delay 3). This ensures that in case of lag or any delay in the image chain, the measurement requested for the newly displayed patch is done exclusively with the newly displayed patch and not "a little bit" with the previous one, "a little bit" with the newly one.

Hope that helps.

Alexandre
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Old 04-07-2016, 06:03 AM
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A good way to test how much of a patch delay you might need is to run a high/low sequence. If there is significant delay in your video chain the high pattern will bleed into the low and be easily detected. If you run a sequence all at the same level you won't see this.

Here are some examples of Y stability in a video chain which consists of laptop->lumagen->eeColor->plasma display using a CR-100 probe:

Green is the 5% patch and black is the 100% patch.
100%/5% sequence, patch delay = 0 ms


100%/5% sequence, patch delay = 100 ms


100%/5% sequence, patch delay = 250 ms



100%/5% sequence, patch delay = 500 ms


Clearly a 0 ms delay will not work in this system but at 100 ms and above there are no problems.

Last edited by zoyd; 04-07-2016 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Here are some examples of Y stability in a video chain which consists of laptop->lumagen->eeColor->plasma display using a CR-100 probe:

Clearly a 0 ms delay will not work in this system but at 100 ms and above there are no problems.
Hi Zoyd,

Lumagen Mini-3D added in a video chain and measured with a Leo Bodnar Video Signal Input Lag Tester it adds 10ms delay while to the same setup when you will use the eeColor 3D LUT Box it's not adding any delay (0ms).

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Old 04-07-2016, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex_t View Post
Hello,


"Extra Delay Time" can improve the dE because it allows to delay 3). This ensures that in case of lag or any delay in the image chain, the measurement requested for the newly displayed patch is done exclusively with the newly displayed patch and not "a little bit" with the previous one, "a little bit" with the newly one.

Hope that helps.

Alexandre
The green LED on the rear of the probe is a very helpful indicator. I use it to time the meter capture speed with the on-screen patches. With 0 delay, the LED blinks in between patches, it seems, and I get bad readings. However, from the results of the grayscale measurements, adding delay on small patch sequences may not be necessary. I guess the sure thing to do is keep the setting active at all times and settle for slightly longer sessions. I don't mind, accuracy is paramount and I just want to make sure I know what i'm doing.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Zoyd,

Lumagen Mini-3D added in a video chain and measured with a Leo Bodnar Video Signal Input Lag Tester it adds 10ms delay while to the same setup when you will use the eeColor 3D LUT Box it's not adding any delay (0ms).

Well all I can say is that there is somewhere between a 0 and 100 ms lag in the entire system. Unless there is some minimum delay that LS uses internally which would be in addition to the user adjustment.
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
A good way to test how much of a patch delay you might need is to run a high/low sequence. If there is significant delay in your video chain the high pattern will bleed into the low and be easily detected. If you run a sequence all at the same level you won't see this.


Clearly a 0 ms delay will not work in this system but at 100 ms and above there are no problems.
Thanks Zoyd. That amply demonstrates the need for patch delay that might be needed in a video chain. Please can you explain what you mean by 'running a sequence all at the same level'? Why can't I see delay errors on the grayscale diagrams I posted? Are the errors (or sample size) too small to see any changes?
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:48 PM
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If the patch to patch luminance doesn't change much the error might be small and easy to miss. With alternating high/low patches at fixed levels it would be very easy to find what delay is acceptable. I believe that argyll uses this technique to set the delay automatically
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Old 04-08-2016, 11:36 AM
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Hey, that most definitely is an option I'd like LS to have.
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Old 04-08-2016, 11:44 AM
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I've installed LS on my new laptop. Why is 'Run with Graphics Processor' grayed out when I right-click the application? I'd like to run LS with the Nvidia graphics card instead of the integrated Intel card. Is this not possible?


Edit: Nevermind, the setting to change the display output in the Nvidia Control Panel is missing. Apparently that option, and others, are not available in Windows 10.

On the bright side, the eeColor Box works fine with Windows 10. No need to disable the USB 3.0 ports like you do with Win7 Pro.

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Old 04-09-2016, 02:50 AM
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Hey, that most definitely is an option I'd like LS to have.
Yeah, that is on our WINBI list...
But, we have a rather large development list of other additions/improvements we are working on, so not sure if/when we will get to that particular idea
(But all ideas always get looked at, so keep the feedback coming!)

Steve
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
First, a Saturation sweep will not really show the impact of Drift Compensation, as there are not enough patches used.
To see the result of Drift Compensation you need to perform a large initial profile (with Drift active).
Make two LUTs from that profile - one with, and one without Drift enabled.

Steve

Steve, I did the initial profile (21^3) with Drift. Then made the two LUTs as you described.

I had time this morning for one Verification Profile run and selected as my active LUT, the LUT with Drift. The auto-cal results were 'weird' again.

The probe was set to 0.75 seconds delay.

I sent you the initial profile, correction LUT and verification data.

Thanks

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Old 04-10-2016, 01:56 PM
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RGB sep. Is not as good as it should be, and your gamut is small. Im sure you know something went wrong.

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Old 04-10-2016, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
I had time this morning for one Verification Profile run and selected as my active LUT, the LUT with Drift.
Selecting an active LUT within LS (soft proofing) requires you to check two things:

1. Hardware LUT (e.g. eeColor) is set to linear.
2. You have applied video scaling to the LUT if your display is expecting video levels.

My guess is you forgot to do the second one.
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Old 04-10-2016, 03:21 PM
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When using Active LUT, no need for VideoScale.
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Old 04-10-2016, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Selecting an active LUT within LS (soft proofing) requires you to check two things:

1. Hardware LUT (e.g. eeColor) is set to linear.
2. You have applied video scaling to the LUT if your display is expecting video levels.

My guess is you forgot to do the second one.

I must be doing this all wrong! I didn't upload the correction LUT to the eeColor. I'm not using the eeColor at all for this. I thought you just play it back from the laptop. That way you can check the LUT result before you upload to the eeColor.
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Old 04-10-2016, 04:04 PM
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Using active Lut first to run a QP is a good idea then upload to a Lut holder and run a QP to cross-check.

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Old 04-10-2016, 04:13 PM
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That must be the mistake I've been making all this time. The eeColor was not in the video chain.

So all profiles should be made after first connecting to the eeColor via HDMI? I've been hooking up the laptop directly to the display.
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