LightSpace 3D LUT Home Cinema Calibration Software - Page 29 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 267Likes
Reply
Thread Tools
post #841 of 902 Old 04-04-2017, 06:18 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 15,345
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked: 986
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Should be about the same room temp, no measurements on the room temp.
Yes I turn off ASBL in the OLED.
No I started to take measurements about 30 min after I started the OLED, when I ran the profile the OLED was on four hours before I ran the profile with normal viewing. In both cases I warmed up the Jeti 1211 for about 1 hour before measurements.
I always run my profiles just before I go to bed, LightSpace turns off any patches on my screen and the OLED turns its self off after there is no signal. The Lumagen pro does stay on as does my laptop until I turn them off the next day, no big deal there.
Anyway that's why I always run a 9200+ color point profile.
The Lumagen is set to output RGB video level at 1080P, Lightspace seems to like that setting the best for REC.709.

I do see with theses x.y, coordinates a Kuro 9G 141 similarity but better shadow and brighter picture as you can see with the max and min nits in the first picture.
I start to clip around 245 with these settings.
Anyway this is the first attempt using just the 3.5mn Jeti 1211 only, so I am sure there is room for improvement. I will keep using these x.y, coordinates to view video for the next few days. Non the less just using the Jeti seems to be the way to go when measuring the x.y, coordinates in a 10% window. LightSpace is telling me that the Jeti is measuring at 119.90 Hz on the EF9500.

ss
Good methodology. I asked those questions because the LGs seem very sensitive to heat and measurements will differ based on room temp and panel on time.
D-Nice is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #842 of 902 Old 04-04-2017, 06:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,739
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Good methodology. I asked those questions because the LGs seem very sensitive to heat and measurements will differ based on room temp and panel on time.
Yes I agree about room temp. I try and keep the room temp about 72 to 74 when viewing and calibrating. Panel time on, if temp is in this range doesn't seem to affect the PQ.
If the room temp gets to say 80 or above the OLED looses some of its dynamics.

ss

"Don't worry be happy"
sillysally is offline  
post #843 of 902 Old 04-04-2017, 06:39 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 15,345
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked: 986
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Yes I agree about room temp. I try and keep the room temp about 72 to 74 when viewing and calibrating. Panel time on, if temp is in this range doesn't seem to affect the PQ.
If the room temp gets to say 80 or above the OLED looses some of its dynamics.

ss
Yep.
D-Nice is offline  
 
post #844 of 902 Old 04-05-2017, 02:47 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 17,210
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1554 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
If the room temp gets to say 80 or above the OLED looses some of its dynamics.

ss
Do you do anything to stabilize the screen temp during luts reads?
JimP is offline  
post #845 of 902 Old 04-05-2017, 03:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,739
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Do you do anything to stabilize the screen temp during luts reads?
Just the usual stuff. Warm up the display with a moving image and adjust the heat vent in my man cave, close the door and go to bed.

Unlike the plasma's the OLED gives of much less heat.

ss

"Don't worry be happy"
sillysally is offline  
post #846 of 902 Old 04-06-2017, 03:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 4,913
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1368 Post(s)
Liked: 1883
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Just the usual stuff. Warm up the display with a moving image and adjust the heat vent in my man cave, close the door and go to bed.

Unlike the plasma's the OLED gives of much less heat.

ss
Hi SS,

I have measured the temperature using a Non-contact Digital Infrared Thermometer with laser aiming, there is no problem with heat to the center of the screen, the panel has higher temperature (the 65E6 I used) only to the bottom area where the electronics are located.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #847 of 902 Old 04-06-2017, 06:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
njfoses's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 795
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 84
On my Sony 940D rec 709 is a bit under-saturated. Does it make sense to use 2020 on the Sony as a LUT starting point for rec 709 so the LUT has over saturation to work with?
njfoses is offline  
post #848 of 902 Old 04-06-2017, 09:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 4,913
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1368 Post(s)
Liked: 1883
Quote:
Originally Posted by njfoses View Post
On my Sony 940D rec 709 is a bit under-saturated. Does it make sense to use 2020 on the Sony as a LUT starting point for rec 709 so the LUT has over saturation to work with?
Hi, measure all color gamut options and find the one which has largest gamut coverage (display native) and use that one, how is that option is named it's not a problem.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #849 of 902 Old 04-06-2017, 08:54 PM
Senior Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Just the usual stuff. Warm up the display with a moving image and adjust the heat vent in my man cave, close the door and go to bed.

Unlike the plasma's the OLED gives of much less heat.

ss
I don't have a fast meter like you, and I have a newer model display (E6). Have you checked for image retention after a set of measurements?
Doing a simple 20-point sweep for grayscale is enough to trigger image retention, which taints measurements.
I've found not only does panel temperature matter but so does pixel voltage (which is the retention).
You may be able to further tighten measurements by using less patterns to avoid retention or perhaps change the pattern order to help keep average voltage low (like a bright pattern, then a number of darker ones, then another bright, repeat).
Real content is not going to be changing as fast or erratically as these synthetic patterns, and will have retention present during actual usage which you may or may not want to try and factor in.

What I'm trying to say is there's more to it than just temperature and ABL.
If you'd like to experiment, you can try seeing if lower contrast will let you control when ABL triggers (Default on my E6 triggers above a 20% window of 100% white, and my current settings allow me to raise the trigger point to between 85-90%. No side effects or loss of data or anything like you would expect from this crazy suggestion of lowering contrast.
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #850 of 902 Old 04-07-2017, 12:18 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 17,210
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1554 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Wouldn't using a 10% window eliminate your abl problem?
JimP is offline  
post #851 of 902 Old 04-07-2017, 12:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,142
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked: 662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze_Ice View Post
I don't have a fast meter like you, and I have a newer model display (E6). Have you checked for image retention after a set of measurements?
Doing a simple 20-point sweep for grayscale is enough to trigger image retention, which taints measurements.
I've found not only does panel temperature matter but so does pixel voltage (which is the retention).
You may be able to further tighten measurements by using less patterns to avoid retention or perhaps change the pattern order to help keep average voltage low (like a bright pattern, then a number of darker ones, then another bright, repeat).
Real content is not going to be changing as fast or erratically as these synthetic patterns, and will have retention present during actual usage which you may or may not want to try and factor in.

What I'm trying to say is there's more to it than just temperature and ABL.
If you'd like to experiment, you can try seeing if lower contrast will let you control when ABL triggers (Default on my E6 triggers above a 20% window of 100% white, and my current settings allow me to raise the trigger point to between 85-90%. No side effects or loss of data or anything like you would expect from this crazy suggestion of lowering contrast.
LightSpace CMS uses an 'Anisometric' patch sequence.
That is designed to deal as best is possible with issues such as image retention, as well as ABL/ASBL.
(Combined with setting patch size to the optimum size for your specific display.)
Steve
ConnecTEDDD likes this.

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #852 of 902 Old 04-07-2017, 01:13 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 17,210
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1554 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I will probably be posting my x,y coordinates later this week. Still testing them with lower end meters that forum members seem to be using.
How's that coming along?
JimP is offline  
post #853 of 902 Old 04-07-2017, 04:28 PM
Senior Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
LightSpace CMS uses an 'Anisometric' patch sequence.
That is designed to deal as best is possible with issues such as image retention, as well as ABL/ASBL.
(Combined with setting patch size to the optimum size for your specific display.)
Steve
An automated process can always be improved. I'm not trying to say anything about about your current process, so please I hope I don't come across as such. I'm just saying you can improve it (and that ABL and temperature aren't the only things to consider for the sequences), so don't stop improving it while you continue to improve the rest of Lightspace.

A pattern sequence tailored to a specific display may not work as well on another (much like how same settings on different panels of the same model aren't always going to be the same result).

Sillysally seems to tackle his calibration much like a high-end overclocker does his overclocking (caring less about practicality and going all in because they enjoy it), so I just wanted to remind him that he can still improve his pattern sequence if he does have image retention with longer patch sets (IMO seems silly to measure something that is obviously wrong due to retention unless this is being factored into everything for real-world scenarios).
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #854 of 902 Old 04-07-2017, 05:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,739
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze_Ice View Post
I don't have a fast meter like you, and I have a newer model display (E6). Have you checked for image retention after a set of measurements?
Doing a simple 20-point sweep for grayscale is enough to trigger image retention, which taints measurements.
I've found not only does panel temperature matter but so does pixel voltage (which is the retention).
You may be able to further tighten measurements by using less patterns to avoid retention or perhaps change the pattern order to help keep average voltage low (like a bright pattern, then a number of darker ones, then another bright, repeat).
Real content is not going to be changing as fast or erratically as these synthetic patterns, and will have retention present during actual usage which you may or may not want to try and factor in.

What I'm trying to say is there's more to it than just temperature and ABL.
If you'd like to experiment, you can try seeing if lower contrast will let you control when ABL triggers (Default on my E6 triggers above a 20% window of 100% white, and my current settings allow me to raise the trigger point to between 85-90%. No side effects or loss of data or anything like you would expect from this crazy suggestion of lowering contrast.
Yes image retention is a issue, but a controllable issue.
The key is to calibrate and check your calibration. After that don't calibrate for a few days. The EF9500 refreshes itself after the EF is on for 2 hours and you turn it off for at-least 10 min. So that helps speed up the time between calibrations or test's.
Of course the 2016 LG OLED's are brighter (lumance 750 nits) so that may be more of a issue than the 2015 LG OLED's (435 nits).

I am not sure what you mean by ABL, but as Jim says below just use a 10% or less Patch window. I use a 5% window and turn off in the EF9500 "Just scan Fit" and turn on "16:9/Auto", that gives about a 3% overscan and will enlarge your patch window.
I turn off ASBL from the service menu so there is NP, after calibration I turn it back on.

I set my contrast between 76 and 78, OLED light between 38 and 42 depending on what Gamma I use.

ss

"Don't worry be happy"
sillysally is offline  
post #855 of 902 Old 04-07-2017, 05:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,739
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze_Ice View Post

Sillysally seems to tackle his calibration much like a high-end overclocker does his overclocking (caring less about practicality and going all in because they enjoy it), so I just wanted to remind him that he can still improve his pattern sequence if he does have image retention with longer patch sets (IMO seems silly to measure something that is obviously wrong due to retention unless this is being factored into everything for real-world scenarios).
LightSpace pattern 'Anisometric' patch sequence seems to work well when using LightSpace.
I tried using argyllCMS custom made patch sequence for my EF9500 and used Mike's tool's to convert for LightSpace. I liked 'Anisometric' patch sequence better.
imho, you must learn what works best with the calibration program you are using. I have LightSpace, Calman and argyllCMS and used them for many years.
You may be right to some degree about retention, but that is why I run a large patch set to determine how well all my color points turned out. When your calibration check always comes back well within specs how can I disagree with that.?

ss

"Don't worry be happy"
sillysally is offline  
post #856 of 902 Old 04-07-2017, 08:32 PM
Senior Member
 
Kamikaze_Ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
LightSpace pattern 'Anisometric' patch sequence seems to work well when using LightSpace.
I tried using argyllCMS custom made patch sequence for my EF9500 and used Mike's tool's to convert for LightSpace. I liked 'Anisometric' patch sequence better.
imho, you must learn what works best with the calibration program you are using. I have LightSpace, Calman and argyllCMS and used them for many years.
You may be right to some degree about retention, but that is why I run a large patch set to determine how well all my color points turned out. When your calibration check always comes back well within specs how can I disagree with that.?

ss
Sorry. I didn't mean to imply you were having an issue with ABL. I was referencing it and temperature as being gremlins that should be addressed for calibration.

I'm also sorry for the long post (I'm OCD). I've written this line after everything else, because I'd like to make readers aware that I'm not really satisfied with how I have translated my thoughts for this post, but I have other things to do and cannot revise this until I'm satisfied.
My apologies if this doesn't make sense to anyone.


I'm basing this off of how I see retention on my E6, which may or may not be similar in behavior to your panel or it's retention (luminance, vs chroma, or a mix of both? how does your panels power delivery effect voltage stability, retention tendancies, circuit heat, power saving functions at the hardware-design level, etc).

Is your verification set in the same or similar order (voltage/brightness, perhaps even hues)? This is a rhetorical question.

I'm really bad at communicating (putting my thoughts into words), so allow me to propose a situation where I think this kind of question would apply:
You (the reader) do a series of patches for, lets say 2 hours (to stay within automatic noise reduction the panels do, which I think is every 4 hours. This is completely seperate from manual de-noising that we can start via menu options).
You've verified that yes, there is retention visible after the set was ran.
You wait 2 hours and play dark content (<70 nits) to eliminate image retention and noise (read: panel is now in very similar condition as when you started the measurement series.)
Now you run a verification test.
Turns out the results are very good, but you did verify that retention was also present after verifying.
Now here is the question... How do you prove that your measurements are truly good?
Because image retention was present at the end of both, did you ever consider that this retention may actually be skewing the measurements and thus LUT corrections?

Also, the reverse can also apply. Let's say retention does not happen during this. The OLEDs will behave differently with real content than it does with synthetic content (read: calibration/profiling/verification patches).
And we're back to the same question again but inverted.

Either way retention is still being a jerk to you (directly to your measurements or indirectly with real content).
This actually brings up a big question:
What IS this retention?
How does the retention in both of the above situations compare?
How does this effect measurements?
How does retention effect voltage stability?
Does it effect everything linearly or vary with different luminance and/or voltage?

The only answer I can think of is to simply observe your panels behavior and then make a judgement call.


Here is the reason why I chose to speak about this:
I did three sets of measurements for 6 minutes each. After each set I ran 15 minutes of an LG demo video (Colors of Journey, MadVR doing HDR>SDR conversion), then manually did noise cleaning.
Preparation: I start with a 20% black field (~3 nits) up for 20 minutes, then switching to a 70% field for 5 minutes then a 0% black field for 2.5 minutes.
Set A) Continiously measure a 5% window of 70% white for 6 minutes.
Set B) Measure the same 5% 70% white, wait 20 seconds, measure again, repeating for 6 minutes.
Set C) Same as B, but I wait 5 seconds, measure, then wait 20 seconds, repeating for 6 minutes.

Naturally, all three sets show that retention is causing luminance to progressively increase the longer this process continues.
I found it interesting that no set behaved as I expected.
Set A was not the brightest at the end of 6 minutes.
Set B had the largest differences between measurements at the same timestamp.
Set C quickly got brighter, very large increase in the first 4 or so measurements but
Sets B and C were practically identical at the end, but also higher than set A (by ~20-30 nits, basically a whole IRE gamma target worth of difference).
Curious, I re-ran set A. Same result, but I also decided to wait 30 seconds and take a final measurement. Now luminance was practically identical to sets B and C.

IMO this is very unusual behavior, which worries me.
What I think is happening:
A pixel is sampling/holding a signal, and during this time voltage is "locked" in but continues to build up in the components driving the pixel. During this time pixel voltage is stabilizes for a few seconds before the retained build up starts to leak through (basically drifting). This continues until the pixel get's a new signal where it removes voltage restriction to change to and lock on to said new signal, at which point the build up flows out.
I've only taken a quick look at board schematics, but I can tell that power phase delivery is only just passable, IMO. I simply do not believe that this should be overlooked given the characteristics I observed on my E6. It's just to unreliable to be stable.
I've been using a 20% field between measurements for this purpose for manual calibration. This isn't really practical for profiling purposes, though, and that's where creating a pattern sequence manually can notably offer an improvement compared to automatically generated sequences (which, AFAIK, cannot factor this behavior when generating sequences).
Kamikaze_Ice is offline  
post #857 of 902 Old 04-08-2017, 04:42 AM
Senior Member
 
DrFaxe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
I tried using argyllCMS custom made patch sequence for my EF9500 and used Mike's tool's to convert for LightSpace.
Hi,
no need for the extra conversion step. When You are in the test chart editor of DisplayCal just use the export function. Choose CSV (0...255) as filetype. It will export a csv file ready to use in LightSpace.
You may like to add drift compensation patches afterwards...

best regards

S/W: LightSpace HCC, Calman 5, DisplayCal/ArgyllCMS
H/W: CR-100, I1Pro2, I1D3, eeColor, RB8 Generator
Tools: ControlCal, Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk

Last edited by DrFaxe; 04-08-2017 at 06:39 AM.
DrFaxe is offline  
post #858 of 902 Old 04-08-2017, 05:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,739
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze_Ice View Post
Sorry. I didn't mean to imply you were having an issue with ABL. I was referencing it and temperature as being gremlins that should be addressed for calibration.
Sorry about the clip.

I don't see image retention after a large profile, that's why I wait a few days before I do any more calibrations just to be sure.

Why the LG OLED increases in luminance I can't really tell you.
If you are asking about why the LG OLED drops in luminance, its because of ASBL that can be defeated by turning it off in the service menu or using some form of anti ASBL.
The great Plasma's of the past did the same thing only in revers.
But in both cases you can use a feature in LightSpace and argyllCMS that averages the peak luminance.

There is nothing I can do to change how the internal workings of the OLED or the Plasma, so why worry about it. There are so many other issues that I can deal with and I do, than to worry about something I can change.
However It is fun trying to work around any issues that I can't change with the internal works of a display. And yes the K10-A meter is very helpful with that type of issue.

ss

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post
Hi,
no need for the extra conversion step. When You are in the test chart editor of DisplayCal just use the export function. Choose CSV (0...255) as filetype. It will export a csv file ready to use in LightSpace.
You may like to add drift compensation patches afterwards...

best regards
Thanks for the tip.

I haven't used argyllCMS in well over a year so I didn't know about that feature.
argyllCMS does not support the Lumagen but LightSpace does. However over a year ago I asked Lumagen to send GW Gill a Lumagen so he could add Lumagen support and Lumagen graciously sent GW Gill a Lumagen. However it seems like GW Gill is not going to add Lumagen support to argyllCMS as he said he would if he got a Lumagen. The last E-Mail I got from GW Gill was about a week ago.

ss

"Don't worry be happy"

Last edited by sillysally; 04-08-2017 at 05:30 PM.
sillysally is offline  
post #859 of 902 Old 04-20-2017, 11:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 4,913
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1368 Post(s)
Liked: 1883
LightSpace CMS 8.0.0.2570 (19 April 2017) has been released.

As is usual for Light Illusion's continued development process for LightSpace CMS a raft of new developments have been released.

Release Notes

Fixed crash with ST2084 Multiplier introduced in last build.

Added Camera colour spaces for LUT generation - PRO and XPT (Beta).

Added 'Null' colour space.

Fixed Crash with Drift of 1.

Change to Java App XML management to improve stability.

Added Drift Function with imported CSV sequences.

Download Link

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #860 of 902 Old 04-24-2017, 05:35 AM
Member
 
BlackJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Hi I try to find the best pre adjustment for my LG E6 OLED for 3D LUT calibration with Lightspace. I usually target Gamma 2.35 and 2.4 and I don't know which was the better starting point.

I attached my QP of the TV the first 2 screens shows Gamma 2.2 and the other BT.1886.

Gamma 2.2 has the better RGB Seperation and also the better Gamma curve but as long as I target 2.35 - 2.4 the LUT has do to more corrections and may clip some details so I looking forward to here some advice .
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Gamma 2.2.jpg
Views:	39
Size:	108.6 KB
ID:	2099817   Click image for larger version

Name:	Gamma 2.2 RGB Seperation.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	115.3 KB
ID:	2099825   Click image for larger version

Name:	Gamma BT.1886.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	108.4 KB
ID:	2099841   Click image for larger version

Name:	RGB Seperation Bt1886.png
Views:	42
Size:	128.3 KB
ID:	2099849  

TV: LG OLED 65E6D Sources: Oppo UDP-203 Video Processor: TruVue eeColor
Probe: C6-HDR profiled by i1Pro2 Software: Lightspace HTL, Calman 5 Enthusiast
BlackJoker is offline  
post #861 of 902 Old 04-24-2017, 08:58 AM
Member
 
OMARDRIS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Added Drift Function with imported CSV sequences.
Hi,
This sounded to me as if LightSpace now adds the drift patches to imported CSV patch files automatically.

But unfortunately I was looking forward to early. Steve quickly awoke me out of my dreams.

You have to enter the drift patches manually in the CSV file, and you can then tell LightSpace how drift patches are in the CSV file.
As a test, I added the 241 drift patches for "Drift Comp. = 30" in the file "cub17tub65-3" and then made a measurement with the "virtual sensor".
LightSpace has found all 241 drift patches and sorted out cleanly. This can be seen in the results BSC file of the measurement.
When converting the color space, the option with and without the drift compensation is now displayed and also works.
I believe this new feature could be helpful for measurements for HDR operation, if one places special emphasis on an exact capture of the grayscale and requires more measuring patches in the dark area.
Peter

S/W: LightSpace CMS, Calman 5, HCFR, Colorfacts
V/P: Lumagen Radiance Pro, DVDO AVlab TPG
Meters: JETI Spectraval 1501, Klein K-10A, I1Pro2, I1D3
OMARDRIS is offline  
post #862 of 902 Old 04-24-2017, 11:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 4,913
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1368 Post(s)
Liked: 1883
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJoker View Post
Hi I try to find the best pre adjustment for my LG E6 OLED for 3D LUT calibration with Lightspace. I usually target Gamma 2.35 and 2.4 and I don't know which was the better starting point.

I attached my QP of the TV the first 2 screens shows Gamma 2.2 and the other BT.1886.

Gamma 2.2 has the better RGB Seperation and also the better Gamma curve but as long as I target 2.35 - 2.4 the LUT has do to more corrections and may clip some details so I looking forward to here some advice .
Hi, your Gamma 2.2 has better RGB Separation and it's better to use that one; usually different pre-calibration settings can improve RGB Separation, like different Contrast/Color settings.

The definition of 'good RGB separation' is when the grey scale is an exact sum of the individual RGB values, combined with colour channel independence, where changing the value of one colour channel has no effect on the other two colour channels - there is no cross-talk between the colour channels. It's not a simple RGB/3 calculation, and can vary for each and every individual grey scale value.

You need 21-Point WRGB Readings to generate this RGB Separation Chart, it's different from RGB Balance Chart that requires only 21-Point Grayscale.

It's actually a key value chart that only LightSpace features; to help/improve the display performance.

RGB Separation is a parameter that is not reflected in any Delta-E reporting; RGB Balance/Gamma are related to dE Reporting.






A bad RGB Separation would not necessarily produce a bad delta-E as you can see to that picture examples, while RGB separation is bad, the de is around 2.0dE2000
Plutotype likes this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #863 of 902 Old 04-24-2017, 12:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 4,913
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1368 Post(s)
Liked: 1883
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMARDRIS View Post
I believe this new feature could be helpful for measurements for HDR operation, if one places special emphasis on an exact capture of the grayscale and requires more measuring patches in the dark area.
Peter
Hi,

To fight drifting, the LightSpace has 2 features which seems that are working very good; Drift Compensation and Anisometric patch sequence which both of them helps to final 3D LUT correction generation.

For the other users not familiar with LightSpace, with Drift Compensation feature enabled and with 30 value for example, LightSpace it takes a one White measurement per 30 patches and at the end it's including to the correction 3D LUT any display 'drifting over the time' issues, LG's are not stable displays over the time and this helps a lot to the final 3D LUT generation.

Additionally the Anisometric sequence is helping a lot also and it's better suited to displays that have any form of ABL, such as Plasmas and many OLEDs, where Sequential patch ordering can cause display overheating (overheating can actually be an issue on any display that has high peak luminance outputs, as it can cause the display to drift. Anisometric patch sequence is using an algorithm to display the patches with one dark/one bright patch order in simple words.

I had the chance to test these 2 features using an LG OLED using eeColor 3D LUT Box and LightSpace 2 times, so the first time I did 17-Point Cube (4913 Colors...took 1H20M) and the second time 21-Point Cube (9261 Colors...took 2H30M), I have posted the post-calibration results here: A comparison of 3DLUT solutions for the eeColor box
Plutotype and L30Z3N like this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #864 of 902 Old 04-26-2017, 12:25 AM
Member
 
BlackJoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Last night I run a new Cube with ~2700 Patches Anisometric sequence and Drift Compensation with a value of 20.
The results are pretty well but I found a interessting behavior and like to know if this could maybe a bug or something. I created a cube with Peak Luma and one with Peak Chroma. The Peak Luma one has good grayscale avg and the sweeps are also crisp but blue has a large luminance error. With Peak Chroma instead the white point drifts too much but the blue luminance error is gone! I would like to have both nice whitepoint (grayscale) and no blue error of course.

My meter was profiled against i1Pro2 with Lightspace and I'm using the exact same profile in CalMAN for verification.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Peak Luma Gamma 2.4.jpg
Views:	52
Size:	227.3 KB
ID:	2103313   Click image for larger version

Name:	Peak Chroma Gamma 2.4_5-Point Saturation.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	223.7 KB
ID:	2103321   Click image for larger version

Name:	Peak Chroma Gamma 2.4.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	228.9 KB
ID:	2103329   Click image for larger version

Name:	Peak Luma Gamma 2.4_5-Point Saturation.jpg
Views:	50
Size:	222.6 KB
ID:	2103337  

TV: LG OLED 65E6D Sources: Oppo UDP-203 Video Processor: TruVue eeColor
Probe: C6-HDR profiled by i1Pro2 Software: Lightspace HTL, Calman 5 Enthusiast
BlackJoker is offline  
post #865 of 902 Old 04-26-2017, 11:07 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,739
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked: 875
Using just W/B High adjustment, Red -4, Green -5, Blue -4
OLED light 42
Contrast 77
Brightness 53
Gamma 2.4
Warm 2
Color Gamut Wide
Expert mode 1
All enhancements Off including H/V Sharpness set at 0
Color at default of 50.

Very simple settings.
The cLUT that I made, LightSpace was set at 2.34 (probably should remake cLUT and set LightSpace around 2.36. I haven't touched up any setting, all are still in the above pre calibration settings.
Max nits are about 156 and Wide Gamut, so therefore I can use this cLUT not only for SDR/709 but for SDR/2020 UHD disc's or SDR/2020 from streaming apps.
Anyway these are the results from the cLUT calibration that is loaded into the Lumagen Pro 4440. I am using a LG EF9500 OLED.
I didn't save the results of my 2.2 Gamma cLUT but they are better looking as far as Calman's report goes.
Note, when I run a profile I set my pre calibration setting at say 2.2 and then make cLUT's for just 2.2 Gamma only. Same goes if I set my pre calibration setting to 2.4, I only use around 2.4 or a little less for my cLUT's.
Also note how little my black point is shifting from ColorChecker and Luminace Sweeps. That is the black dot that is in no box, that's one reason why I don't suggest using the 21 Pt low IRE or W/B low settings. iow the low light range is fairly stable and shadow detail is good.

ss
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Grayscale 21 PT.png
Views:	56
Size:	310.2 KB
ID:	2103857   Click image for larger version

Name:	Gamut.png
Views:	49
Size:	438.5 KB
ID:	2103865   Click image for larger version

Name:	ColorChecker.png
Views:	51
Size:	473.3 KB
ID:	2103873   Click image for larger version

Name:	Saturation Sweeps.png
Views:	43
Size:	376.7 KB
ID:	2103881   Click image for larger version

Name:	Luminance Sweeps.png
Views:	44
Size:	470.2 KB
ID:	2103897  


"Don't worry be happy"

Last edited by sillysally; 04-26-2017 at 12:55 PM.
sillysally is offline  
post #866 of 902 Old 05-03-2017, 08:49 AM
Member
 
OMARDRIS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 32
He
It is a bit funny that many users create the LUTs with LightSpace and then display the results in Calman.

So that our good Steve is not sad, I show here the results of an HDR/BT2020 calibration of a NON-HDR/BT2020 projector Sony VW1100ES.

The projector has a maximum of 100 Nits on the screen. The DCI filter of the projector is not used as it swallows too much light.
As a result, the color space is only slightly larger than BT 709.
Clipping occurs at 650 Nits. The soft clipping starts at 90% and goes up to 4000 nits.
Base is a 17x3 characterization, which was processed with Fit-Chroma. In this case I liked the result better with Fit-Chroma than with Fix-Chroma. The LUT was loaded into a Radiance Pro.

The first picture shows the cover of the BT2020-color space - unfortunately it is very limited.





The second image shows the modified ST2084 curve. The target curve has the multiplier 6.5. It is achieved very precisely.





The third picture shows the RGB balance I am satisfied with.





The last picture shows the Delta E values.





I mean for a NON-HDR/BT2020 projector, LightSpace has done a good job.
Peter
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	BT2020.jpg
Views:	243
Size:	33.3 KB
ID:	2115369   Click image for larger version

Name:	ST2084.jpg
Views:	230
Size:	37.5 KB
ID:	2115377   Click image for larger version

Name:	RGB_Balance.jpg
Views:	235
Size:	36.8 KB
ID:	2115385   Click image for larger version

Name:	Delta_e.jpg
Views:	237
Size:	40.2 KB
ID:	2115393  
crestron and ConnecTEDDD like this.

S/W: LightSpace CMS, Calman 5, HCFR, Colorfacts
V/P: Lumagen Radiance Pro, DVDO AVlab TPG
Meters: JETI Spectraval 1501, Klein K-10A, I1Pro2, I1D3
OMARDRIS is offline  
post #867 of 902 Old 05-04-2017, 02:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 4,913
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1368 Post(s)
Liked: 1883
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMARDRIS View Post
It is a bit funny that many users create the LUTs with LightSpace and then display the results in Calman.

So that our good Steve is not sad, I show here the results of an HDR/BT2020 calibration of a NON-HDR/BT2020 projector Sony VW1100ES.
I do the same, not because LightSpace don't have PDF reports with dE/Charts, but because I want to cross-check the final results with other software, to see the agreement.

Also to my calibration disk I don't have Saturation/Luminance runs for LightSpace (because they added to LightSpace after my disk release), so I have to use the CalMAN Saturation runs etc. which my disk has.

Usually a lot of LightSpace users are doing the same because they had CalMAN already and then they switched to LightSpace.
sillysally and 1forsnow like this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #868 of 902 Old 05-04-2017, 04:39 AM
Member
 
OMARDRIS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 32
He Ted,
This was also meant as a joke. I myself have Calman5 Enthusiast.

But in view of the current situation with Calman5, I wonder seriously whether I can support the huge extra charge for upgrading to a version that supports the K-10A and the Jeti 1501.
I'd rather wait and get used to the "puristic" LightSpace.
Peter

S/W: LightSpace CMS, Calman 5, HCFR, Colorfacts
V/P: Lumagen Radiance Pro, DVDO AVlab TPG
Meters: JETI Spectraval 1501, Klein K-10A, I1Pro2, I1D3
OMARDRIS is offline  
post #869 of 902 Old 05-05-2017, 01:39 AM
Member
 
loggeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Rhodes, Greece
Posts: 46
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMARDRIS View Post
He
It is a bit funny that many users create the LUTs with LightSpace and then display the results in Calman.

So that our good Steve is not sad, I show here the results of an HDR/BT2020 calibration of a NON-HDR/BT2020 projector Sony VW1100ES.

The projector has a maximum of 100 Nits on the screen. The DCI filter of the projector is not used as it swallows too much light.
As a result, the color space is only slightly larger than BT 709.
Clipping occurs at 650 Nits. The soft clipping starts at 90% and goes up to 4000 nits.
Base is a 17x3 characterization, which was processed with Fit-Chroma. In this case I liked the result better with Fit-Chroma than with Fix-Chroma. The LUT was loaded into a Radiance Pro.

The first picture shows the cover of the BT2020-color space - unfortunately it is very limited.





The second image shows the modified ST2084 curve. The target curve has the multiplier 6.5. It is achieved very precisely.





The third picture shows the RGB balance I am satisfied with.





The last picture shows the Delta E values.





I mean for a NON-HDR/BT2020 projector, LightSpace has done a good job.
Peter
Hi,
Do you have the chart of the RGB separation?
loggeo is online now  
post #870 of 902 Old 05-07-2017, 08:36 AM
Member
 
OMARDRIS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by loggeo View Post
Hi,
Do you have the chart of the RGB separation?
Hi,
Yes sure.
Here is the RGB separation of the profile. This is very ok, so I took Fit-Chroma for the LUT







And here is the RGB separation after the LUT has accessed. Here you can see clearly that the color space of the projector is actually too small.




Peter
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	RGB_Separation_before.jpg
Views:	138
Size:	38.3 KB
ID:	2122177   Click image for larger version

Name:	RGB_Separation_after.jpg
Views:	133
Size:	40.4 KB
ID:	2122185  
crestron and loggeo like this.

S/W: LightSpace CMS, Calman 5, HCFR, Colorfacts
V/P: Lumagen Radiance Pro, DVDO AVlab TPG
Meters: JETI Spectraval 1501, Klein K-10A, I1Pro2, I1D3
OMARDRIS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off