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Old 11-08-2015, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
Is there a procedure for exporting the LUT file once display profiling is completed? Is there a particular file location for the LUT before it can uploaded to the eeColor Box?
Hi. after the colorspace conversion, VideoScale filter (with Pass Black or with Clip Black) is the last step you do before exporting the cLUT to eeColor65.TXT format.

For eeColor users, once they have generate the correction 3D LUT Table, the last step before exporting the cLUT to eeColor 65.TXT format, it's to apply the VideoScale filter.

We do this for eeColor because eeColor's internal 10-bit table is 0-255, the videoscale is mapping the correction to 16-235 levels, since we will use it for HT enviroment / blu-ray content etc.

The VideoScale is not required for Lumagen users because it's internal 10-bit table can control video levels (16-235) only.

LightSpace has 2 options about VideoScale Filter:

VideoScale with passblack and VideoScale with clip black.

The VideoScale with Pass Black is mapping the levels from 0-255 to 16-235 and later it applies a UNITY to 0-16 levels. so all below black information is visible.

The VideoScale with Clipping Black is mapping the levels from 0-255 to 16-235 and later and all the 0-16 levels are becoming 16. so all below black information is becoming 16, no below black information is visible.

One scenario where VideoScale with Clipping Black is helpful is when we have a display which it's difficult to set with success it's near black with a brightness with flashing bars pattern using the display's internal brightness control setting.

For example lets say we have a display...when we display a brightness pattern with flashing bars, we don't see 17,18 flashing bars with internal brightness setting at zero....

but when we use +1 brightness, we see 17,18 flashing bars correctly but we see the 15 and 16 flashing also.

In that case when we will apply VideoScale with Clipping Black, the 16 and below bars (15,14 etc) will become 16 also, so we will be able to see correctly see the near black details of 17,18 levels to that specific display.


To export the correction file in eeColor 65-Point format click: File -> Export -> Tick only the [3D] eeColor65 (*.TXT) and click Export. It will ask you for a folder, you can select your Desktop for example.

Locate that TXT file and rename it to 3DLUT_1.txt if you want to be uploaded to Slot 1 of your eeColor.

After that you will use the TruVue eeColor Application Software (You can download it from here: http://www.displaycalibrations.com/f..._Version_2.zip) to upload the 3D LUT table to eeColor memory.

You have to paste that 3DLUT_1.txt file to the TruVue eeColor Application Software installation directory: ''C:\Program Files\Entertainment Experience LLC\TruVue eeColor Application\Data\3dtable\standard nonrgb led\General Media''

Here you can see where you have to click upload custom 3D LUT correction table to eeColor:



You can create to your desktop a shortcut that will bring you very quick the correct folder to place there the custom eeColor TXT files.

(you can browse for custom icon and load one of the eeColor DownLoadTable.exe files you see inside the TruVue eeColor Application directory to bring you an eeColor icon for that shortcut)

As destination for that shortcut (for my Windows 7 64bit) is: "C:\Program Files (x86)\Entertainment Experience LLC\TruVue eeColor Application\Data\3dtable\standard nonrgb led\General Media"
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Old 11-08-2015, 04:55 AM
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Thank you Ted.


I followed your instructions and exported the cLUT file to my desktop, and from there uploaded to the eeColor Box.


A few things:


1) How can I tell if Video Scale has been applied to the LUT before export? I selected Video Scale in the LUT Manipulation tab, but how can I be sure?


2) Is a copy of the cLUT held in LightSpace? I see the Profiles only.


3) I did a 21^3 profile and my computer kept going to sleep mode. I have the Power settings to always stay on while the computer is plugged in, but at about 30 - 40 percent of the profile completion, the screen turns off. (see image)


4) I believe item 3 affected the profiling as I kept having to nudge the touch pad to stop the screen from turning off. The profile was disastrous.





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Last edited by Pres2play; 11-08-2015 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 11-08-2015, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi. after the colorspace conversion...snip...
Nice rightup Ted but have to say that I think LS would get more users if they had this process automated. Click one button and the rest is done for you including uploading into one of the eecolor memories.
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Old 11-08-2015, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Nice rightup Ted but have to say that I think LS would get more users if they had this process automated. Click one button and the rest is done for you including uploading into one of the eecolor memories.
Unfortunately, as the eeColor LUT box is end of life there is no real benefit in developing a greater level of integration.
What is there works as is required.

We have been doing a fair bit of development with the Prisma, and have just received new firmware we have helped develop that has a 1D LUT followed by a 3D LUT, and then a final 1D LUT.
This gives great flexibility for calibration.

I really wish EE would put some time into correcting the issues with the eeColor box, but unfortunately that's not going the happen.

Steve

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Old 11-08-2015, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
1) How can I tell if Video Scale has been applied to the LUT before export? I selected Video Scale in the LUT Manipulation tab, but how can I be sure?

2) Is a copy of the cLUT held in LightSpace? I see the Profiles only.

3) I did a 21^3 profile and my computer kept going to sleep mode. I have the Power settings to always stay on while the computer is plugged in, but at about 30 - 40 percent of the profile completion, the screen turns off. (see image)

4) I believe item 3 affected the profiling as I kept having to nudge the touch pad to stop the screen from turning off. The profile was disastrous.
If you look at the 1D LUT Graph you can see if VideoScale is applied or not.

The following in No VideoScle


And this the same LUT With VideoScale


After you use 'Convert Colour Space' the result is the LUT, and is held within LightSpace immediately.
You can save the LUT is any format, or even export as a LUT Image.

If the PC goes into 'Sleep' you will never get a valid result,
But, with your settings there is not reason for that to happen - something very strange there.
I do such calibrations all the time, with the same basic settings, and the PC never goes to sleep, or turns off the display.

Steve

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Old 11-08-2015, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
...snip...
I really wish EE would put some time into correcting the issues with the eeColor box, but unfortunately that's not going the happen.

Steve
What are these issues?

Does the Prisma have them?
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Old 11-08-2015, 12:37 PM
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I will check the 1D LUT Graph and compare.


I left the laptop on for several hours this morning and the Power setting appears to be okay now. Odd. I will try profiling again tonight.


Gratefully,
Bob
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Old 11-08-2015, 08:13 PM
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I ran a 4,913 point profile and happy to report the computer screen stayed on this time. My guess is a restart is necessary to save the Power settings.

The result of the profile is the same as before, unfortunately. See the PDF report below.


The display Color Space is set to Custom mode, which might be too wide for the eeColor alone to correct. I tried Native mode last week and the 3D LUT cube looked much better than this:







Here's screen shot of the 1D LUT with VideoScale applied.





I'll run a new session tomorrow in Native mode. If that doesn't improve profiling, I'll use Custom mode and use the set's CMS and 10-point WB to bring it closer to target.
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Old 11-09-2015, 02:17 AM
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The problem is nothing to do with the wide gamut of the display.
LightSpace CMS will manage that no problem.
(Using a wide gamut mode means the 'cube' view of the LUT will look 'smaller' than a LUT made with the display set to a smaller gamut - that is as it should be. It is the 'random' noise in the cube display that is poor, and shows the profile data is not good.)
It is the 'kinks' in the profile data - specifically RGB Separation - that show something is wrong elsewhere...
It look like the display may have some form of ABL happening?
Probably best to send me the .bcs file directly to see if I can see any other detail that may help with the issue assessment.

Oh - and are you using the Anisometric Patch Sequence, with a small patch size?

Steve
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Last edited by Light Illusion; 11-09-2015 at 03:55 AM. Reason: Additional question
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Old 11-09-2015, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
What are these issues?

Does the Prisma have them?
The main issues have been well documented and discussed previously.
The first is the order of the 1D and 3D LUTs is incorrect for best application.
The 3D LUT is before both 1D LUTs, which means a 1D LUTs cannot be used as a 'shaper LUT' for input to the 3D LUT.
This prevents the second issue being overcome - the fact that with Data Range the peak values are locked, and cannot be LUT calibrated.

There is another issues we found that appears to show the the real resolution of the cube is not true 64^3 or 65^3, but this has no impact on the box when used for calibration - only if complex 'Look LUTs' are used, which will never happen with Home Cinema applications.

The Prisma (so far) has shown no such issues.

Steve

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Old 11-09-2015, 03:31 AM
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Made a big discovery. Went into the display's hidden service menu and unlocked the adjustment controls for Cal-Day/Cal-Night, which are normally grayed out. So happens, this unlocks the Custom mode 10-point WB adjustments, as well, which are never grayed out. I assumed all this time the controls were busted.


With the multi-point controls active again, I made adjustments to the WB and Color Gamut and ran a quick profile (124 points).


The results are much better. I'll reset everything and run a clean 21^3 LUT this week. Alright, now


Quick Profile LUT







124-point 1D LUT




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Old 11-09-2015, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
The problem is nothing to do with the wide gamut of the display.
LightSpace CMS will manage that no problem.
(Using a wide gamut mode means the 'cube' view of the KT will look 'smaller' than a LUT made with the display set to a smaller gamut - that is as it should be. It is the 'random' noise in the cube display that is poor, and shows the profile data is not good.)
It is the 'kinks' in the profile data - specifically RGB Separation - that show something is wrong elsewhere...
It look like the display may have some form of ABL happening?
Probably best to send me the .bcs file directly to see if I can see any other detail that may help with the issue assessment.

Oh - and are you using the Anisometric Patch Sequence, with a small patch size?

Steve

No, not using Anisometric Patch Sequence. Will try that later, once I get a handle on how this all works.


Here are more images. I'll re-do the 2 point for improved RGB Separation.








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Old 11-09-2015, 03:59 AM
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Using any display controls - especially 2-point or multi-point grey scale - will not alter the RGB Separation.
RGB Separation is 'inbuilt' into the display electronics, or is caused by ABL, or similar.
All your Quick Profile test show is the sequence is fast enough, and/or the patch size small enough, for ABL/ASBL to not be triggering.

With any display that suffers ABL/ASBL you really must use the Anisometric patch sequence and a small patch size.

Steve

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Old 11-09-2015, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
What are these issues?

Does the Prisma have them?
Here is an example of the Cube Size issue.

Attached is a the result of a LUT uploaded into the eeColor, and the same LUT active within LightSpace.
The LUT just desaturates a small point of selected colour, and the result should be as per the LightSpace result.
(This is with a LUT that is 33^3)
The eeColor result shows artefacts that suggest the cube size is not what it is quoted as, but I have never got a full explanation from Entertainment Experience as to the cause.

But, as I say, this should not cause any issues with Home Cinema calibration.

Steve
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Old 11-09-2015, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

I'll run a new session tomorrow in Native mode. If that doesn't improve profiling, I'll use Custom mode and use the set's CMS and 10-point WB to bring it closer to target.
What display is this? As Steve said the problem you are running into is display stability.
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Old 11-09-2015, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Using any display controls - especially 2-point or multi-point grey scale - will not alter the RGB Separation.
RGB Separation is 'inbuilt' into the display electronics, or is caused by ABL, or similar.
All your Quick Profile test show is the sequence is fast enough, and/or the patch size small enough, for ABL/ASBL to not be triggering.

With any display that suffers ABL/ASBL you really must use the Anisometric patch sequence and a small patch size.

Steve

I'll run the Anisometric sequence and test other patch sizes.


Thanks,
Bob
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Old 11-09-2015, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
The main issues have been well documented and discussed previously.
The first is the order of the 1D and 3D LUTs is incorrect for best application.
The 3D LUT is before both 1D LUTs, which means a 1D LUTs cannot be used as a 'shaper LUT' for input to the 3D LUT.
This prevents the second issue being overcome - the fact that with Data Range the peak values are locked, and cannot be LUT calibrated.

...snip...

Steve
So what does this mean relative to home theater use? How does it affect picture quality?

...and when you say 1D LUTs, are you saying grayscale????
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Old 11-09-2015, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
What display is this? As Steve said the problem you are running into is display stability.

I have the discontinued Samsung KE55S9C OLED. The S9C is RGB based, not WRGB, like the LG OLEDs.


I didn't notice stability issues when running a 1,000-point display characterization last week, so I'm not totally convinced it's the display. There might be one other explanation for the poor results -- the meter correction I performed, with the CR-250 and CR-100, just before doing the display profile.


The LS instructions when matching the colorimeter to the spectro calls for disconnecting the spectro after performing the four-color matrix reading, and then connecting the colorimeter. I have learned from Tom Huffman (Chromapure) this is not good when using the CR meters. The meters need to stay connected when performing a meter correction, because they share the same serial connection. Remove the spectro and you get an error message when you connect the CR-100, which I did get -- and ignored in my haste to complete the display profile.


This is just a theory. I'll do more testing this week.

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Old 11-10-2015, 02:56 AM
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No, probe matching cannot produce the errors you have.
If the probe matching were wrong you would just get a global (offset) error.

And with LightSpace, using the 'change probe' button will enable clean swapping of the probes.
I have the CR-250 and CR-100 and do this all the time with no issues.

The RGB Separation error definitely display related.

Steve

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Old 11-10-2015, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
What are these issues?

Does the Prisma have them?


Jim, personally I won't miss the USB 2.0 setting requirement on the ee. A real PIA if you're unaware of the Intel USB 3.0 (XHCI) chipset in Win7 Professional and FWIU, Win7 Ultimate!


Disabling the chipset means all my ports are now degraded.
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Old 11-10-2015, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
No, probe matching cannot produce the errors you have.
If the probe matching were wrong you would just get a global (offset) error.

And with LightSpace, using the 'change probe' button will enable clean swapping of the probes.
I have the CR-250 and CR-100 and do this all the time with no issues.

The RGB Separation error definitely display related.

Steve

You are correct, it's not the probe matching. I ran a profile (several) with the corrected CR-100, and the errors are consistent with the prior measurements.


Also tried Anisometric Patch Sequence (after adjusting 2-pt, multi-point, and CMS -- Red, Green and Blue only) and the results were even worse.


I did run a smaller patch, 729 (setting only the Peak White and 2-pt) and that seems to work, the cube and 1D LUT are not falling apart.

I'll post images later.


Can reducing the Calibration Area Window help? Will it not reduce the chance of ABL contamination?


How can I reduce/pre-set the window size permanently so I don't have to click and drag the box every time I run a new measurement?

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Old 11-11-2015, 05:49 AM
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...snip....

Can reducing the Calibration Area Window help? Will it not reduce the chance of ABL contamination?
What size and type window are you using?
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:22 AM
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It is the 'Patch Size (window Size) that is important with displays that suffer ABL/ASBL, combined with the Anisometric Patch Sequence.
The size setting should basically be be as small as possible for the probe being used.
Some use APL patches, but we have never found them to be beneficial, compared to an Anisometric sequence workflow.
Are you using the LightSpace patch window directly, or via an external patch generator?

Steve

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Old 11-11-2015, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
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So what does this mean relative to home theater use? How does it affect picture quality?

...and when you say 1D LUTs, are you saying grayscale????
Steve....please tell.
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:11 AM
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The box size opens at w:418 h:431, but I usually set it to 375 x 375. This looks to be still a bit larger than 11% I normally use with other software. I will try reducing further, to 275 x 275.


I'm using the LS internal test pattern via HDMI
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
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Steve....please tell.
As I did say, no 'real' effect on home cinema use, unless you do Full Data Range, and with a display with a white point that is different to the Rec709.BT1886 standard.

And no, for the 1D LUT I was talking 'Shaper LUTs' to re-scale the image into and out of the 3D LUT.
That would overcome the above issue with the white point being locked within the eeColor.

The issue with the 'monochrome' patch I posted is a different issue, and I have never got to the bottom of that.
But again, unlikely to be an issues with Home Cinema use (at least I have never found an issue with it in such applications)

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Old 11-11-2015, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
The box size opens at w:418 h:431, but I usually set it to 375 x 375. This looks to be still a bit larger than 11% I normally use with other software. I will try reducing further, to 275 x 275.

I'm using the LS internal test pattern via HDMI
The default size on a HD screen is normally fine.
What probe and what settings are you using?
Are the patches displayed for a long time (slow probe reading)?
And are you removing the Patch Window border, or leaving it there?

Steve

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Old 11-11-2015, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
Thank you Ted.

1) How can I tell if Video Scale has been applied to the LUT before export? I selected Video Scale in the LUT Manipulation tab, but how can I be sure?
Hi, when you are viewing the 1D LUT Viewer in LightSpace you see the 0-100%, but you can zoom to the area you are interesting if you like, for example to low end to check the filters affection or check if you have performed videoscale to your current profile.

To select what area you want to focus and display, go to 1D LUT Viewer and click using the right mouse button...it will display a menu...select properties and it will bring you the Graph Window Properties.

You will see the default values (to display 0-100%) are these; as you see:

x1=0 y1=0
x2=1 y2=1

If you want to zoom to 0-20% area change them to:

x1=0 y1=0
x2=0.2 y2=0.2

Doing this you will be able to see better if the videoscale has been applied, look the following example:


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Old 11-11-2015, 11:47 AM
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Thank you Ted. I chose VideoScale with clip black and can see the result at the bottom corner of the screen.


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Last edited by Pres2play; 11-11-2015 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
Thank you Ted. I chose VideoScale with clip black and can the result at the bottom corner of the screen.
Yes, correct.

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