LightSpace 3D LUT Home Cinema Calibration Software - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 143 Old 01-26-2013, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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LightSpace Home Cinema Calibration

3D LUT processing has been used for quite awhile by movie studios and post houses but for the consumer market it has been too expensive until now. In order to cut the software price, Light Illusion limits LUT formats to the Entertainment Experience Commercial HDMI eeColor Processor and the Lumagen Radiance series of video processors. There are a couple of others which are for other Light Illusion programs.

Commercial companies pay more because they need one or several of the many formats available in the full version of LightSpace.



Lumagen is not shown in the above graphic as there is a separate "Upload" button.

There are five of us who have been beta testing and we agree that LUTs resulting from large display profiles, 17 points equaling 4913 separate reads, add color nuances not otherwise available. The resulting picture is more accurate than, but not unlike, turning a Darblet on and off for lack of a better way to describe it. There is more clarity, more naturalness. Eventually, higher end consumer displays may contain the necessary LUT holding/processing circuitry internally but for the time being we'll use the stand alone boxes.

Patterns are generated by LightSpace and outputted via the computer HDMI. I have confirmed that the patterns are accurate from my laptop but all of the beta testers agree that external generator ability is important. In response, Light Illusion will soon offer Lumagen Radiance pattern ability and I'm sure other reference generators will follow.

Reading times vary. There are two modes, one where read times are manually set (DIP) and one which is meter specific (Closed Loop). Time involved is less important for enthusiasts but for professional use it is a factor. In the fastest DIP mode, 3 second reads take a little over 4 hours to complete a full 17 point profile. To speed things up for those with the hardware, the fastest full profile time is when using the Closed Loop mode with a Klein K10-A and my profiles take 1 hr 34 minutes.

Proper 3D LUTs are not for everyone just as BestBuy 1D LUT calibration isn't either, but for those who want the best, it is available. smile.gif

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post #2 of 143 Old 01-26-2013, 06:27 PM
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too expensive now:)
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post #3 of 143 Old 01-26-2013, 07:52 PM
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It's not so expensive..... The actual price difference of your current home solutions:

ChromaPure + Radiance Mini3D Auto-Calibrate Package: $2.199

1 Consumer meter can be used with that licence... To have access for more meters the additional cost is +100$/per meter)
Only consumer meter support, iD3-i1PRO.
No annual fees

CalMAN 5 Enthusiast + Radiance Mini-3D: 399$+1.600$ =1.999$ (+69$ fees per year)

Consumer meters supported only with that licence, iD3-i1PRO...

LightSpace Home Cinema + eeColor: 2.280$+600$ 2.880$

Consumer+Professional meters supported, Minolta, JETI, PhotoResearch, Klein.
No annual fees.


125 Colors (ChromaPure or CalMAN)


4913 Colors (LightSpace)

LightSpace is used for 4913 Color Profillings since 2009 by professionals like Dolby, Walt Disney, BBC Studios, Warner Bros, Sony, SGO, HBO, Blackmagic Design, Technicolor, over 100 Post Production facilities around the world....
http://www.lightillusion.com/customer_list.html

LightSpace is the cheapest solution from Professional world that can now be used at home.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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post #4 of 143 Old 01-26-2013, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

It's not so expensive..... The actual price difference of your current home solutions:

ChromaPure + Radiance Mini3D Auto-Calibrate Package: $2.199

1 Consumer meter can be used with that licence... To have access for more meters the additional cost is +100$/per meter)
Only consumer meter support, iD3-i1PRO.
No annual fees

CalMAN 5 Enthusiast + Radiance Mini-3D: 399$+1.600$ =1.999$ (+69$ fees per year)

Consumer meters supported only with that licence, iD3-i1PRO...

LightSpace Home Cinema + eeColor: 2.280$+600$ 2.880$

Consumer+Professional meters supported, Minolta, JETI, PhotoResearch, Klein.
No annual fees.

LightSpace is used for 4913 Color Profillings since 2009 by professionals like Dolby, Walt Disney, BBC Studios, Warner Bros, Sony, SGO, HBO, Blackmagic Design, Technicolor, over 100 Post Production facilities around the world....
http://www.lightillusion.com/customer_list.html

LightSpace is the cheapest solution from Professional world that can now be used at home.
Just to clarify,
  • The Advanced Auto-calibrate package from ChromaPure that includes the Lumagen Mini and supports the 125-point calibration is $2279. However, this includes the Display 3 PRO colorimeter (a calibrated version of the i1 Display Pro III).
  • ChromaPure Professional users would only need to add the Mini and the $79 Adv. Auto-Calibrate add-on ($2577 total), and this would support any professional meter (sold separately).
  • The Lumagen Mini is a full-featured standalone video processor and includes many features other than color correction. It offers considerable additional value beyond PC-based color correction software.
  • I agree that color correction beyond the 125-point currently offered by the Lumagen is desirable. This is a moving technological target that was only very recently made available to the home user and the landscape of available options is likely to change in the relatively near future.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
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post #5 of 143 Old 01-26-2013, 11:58 PM
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Also an analyzer or calibrated pattern generator should be included in the start up cost of LS to verify the generated patterns. It is not possible to guarantee that the patterns output on every computer system will be correct.
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post #6 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

It's not so expensive..... The actual price difference of your current home solutions:

CalMAN 5 Enthusiast + Radiance Mini-3D: 399$+1.600$ =1.999$ (+69$ fees per year)

Consumer meters supported only with that licence, iD3-i1PRO...

Sure tell half a story to make a product that is not really designed or even priced for home/consumer use sound like a good deal or is even beneficial.

CalMAN Enthusiast is $399 but also supports every consumer level meter made. It also supports all of the popular calibration disks and the processors as a pattern source. Supports the Radiance and ColorBox as 3D LUT devices.

Who do you think worked with Lumagen to 1) get 3D LUT in the Radiance and 2) got the pattern generator to be a true RGB triplet device and 3) worked directly with them on sorting out the implementation “SpectraCal”. Who do you think worked with Lumagen in the first place to get 1D LUTs and even the first pattern generator control again “SpectraCal”.

But here is more of the story how about CalMAN Studio at $1595 and that does support professional level meters and generators not to mention the more popular 3D LUT processors like the Davio, Pluto, HDLink, ColorBox. Also as of CalMAN Studio 5.1 we also support most of the popular 3D LUT file formats for systems that also can use software based 3D LUTs. Now who is looking over priced at $2280.

But wait there is more with CalMAN not only can you generate a 3D LUT but you can also use the same software to calibrate your display, use the same software to validate what the 3D LUT is actually doing. We implemented the ColorChecker charts, full saturation and luminance sweeps just for that task. In fact most reviewers are in the process of switching over to using the ColorChecker for their reviews because it is a true quick indicator of performance.

Also I will say this again for those that believe everything they read as true. We do not and I repeat DO NOT have annual usages fee’s and never have. So quit spreading LIES about this. Once you have purchased any version of CalMAN from us it is yours to use forever. We do have a program for annual maintenance which gives you all updates including major ones. But this program is optional and does not stop you from using your current CalMAN ever. CalMAN comes with a full year of updates included and after that bug fixes. Our annual maintenance program is very popular for businesses that like to have a fixed cost on software programs. Most professional software businesses provide this and is required by many of our large clients. Again it is optional and if you don’t have maintenance after the first year and want to upgrade to a newer major version of CalMAN we charge appropriately.

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
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post #7 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by praz View Post

Also an analyzer or calibrated pattern generator should be included in the start up cost of LS to verify the generated patterns. It is not possible to guarantee that the patterns output on every computer system will be correct.

True and a good point. We and many others have done extensive testing with most major brands of laptops and a good cross section of models. And guess what very few pass the test. What is that saying from Forest Gump “Life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.” Well the HDMI/DVI output of a laptop is just that. Even if you do find one and get it in the right configuration all it takes is one firmware or service pack update to do away with that.

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post #8 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by praz View Post

Also an analyzer or calibrated pattern generator should be included in the start up cost of LS to verify the generated patterns. It is not possible to guarantee that the patterns output on every computer system will be correct.

You can use the integrated test pattern generator of LS (via laptop HDMI-out), a test pattern disc (via a bluray-player) or (in a few days) the pattern generator of the Radiance. IMHO that are all "important" test pattern generators a home cinema enthusiast will need at the moment.

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
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post #9 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 04:57 AM
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Tom is right, i didn't saw that a iD3 PRO was included.

(Tom, you have to update this page: http://www.chromapure.com/products-autocal-advanced.asp
Purchase a Lumagen Mini with the Advanced Auto-calibrate Add-on: $1.699 the same time @ ChromaPure Web-Store it has the same package for 1.639$)


I'm reposting the Prices for the Lower Options for 3D LUT Calibrations (for those who own a meter) Available:

ChromaPure w/license for 1 supported meter + Radiance Mini3D with Auto-Calibrate Add-On: 200$ + 1.639$ = 1.839$

CalMAN 5 Enthusiast + Radiance Mini-3D: 399$+1.600$ =1.999$ (With this price you have one year of software free updates, if you need to extend that updates for another one year it's +69$).

LightSpace Home Cinema + eeColor: 2.280$+600$ 2.880$

By The Way If you are living in USA and Buzz can reach your address, you can have a True 17-Point Cube Calibration from Buzz, with 600$ for eeColor + Buzz's fee for calibrating it.

So This is by far the lowest price for 3D LUT for home user, no other solution can come closer to that performance/price ratio.

Derek, this is no lie behind your Annual Fee program, it's your strategy, it' not mine, anyone who is really interested/using CalMAN will buy that Upgrade after his first year time ends.
Is very importand since each new version is adding good features while it's fixing a lot of reported bugs.

Derek, you are selling the ColorBox (which is an eeColor with Purple Faceplace with a different firmware) for 1.599$ the same time that LightSpace is selling the eeColor for 600$......

Why it's so big price difference for exact the same hardware for this cosmetic difference?

Why you don't support/sell eeColor (for 600$) @ CalMAN 5 Enthusiast to make the 3D-LUT calibration for affordable for home users?

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #10 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by praz View Post

Also an analyzer or calibrated pattern generator should be included in the start up cost of LS to verify the generated patterns. It is not possible to guarantee that the patterns output on every computer system will be correct.


Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk - Display Characterization Menu

There is no need to buy any reference Pattern Generator, you can use my Disk as a Reference to calibrate your whole chain...

Calibrating using a Reference Pattern Generator means nothing if you Blu-Ray Player later will introduce errors...

Allmost all Blu-Ray Player output has small differencies to their output...

If all BluRay Players were accurate, because Data inside the disk is digital and the HDMI output is digital too, so all stages of transmiting the image to your display stays at digital level,

then all Blu-Ray Players from 100$ throu 10.000$ supposed to have the same image, same output.... But there are differencies at image quality between them.

So a Calibration perfomed with a Disk as a source is better that any other Reference Pattern Generator Solution, because it fixes you player problems (small or bigger ones) calibrating the whole chain.

This is for Blu-Ray reproduction only, if you have multiple sources (HDTV, Streaming/Media Players) then a Reference Pattern Generator will save you a lot of time, by making one calibration for all your devices....

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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post #11 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

This is for Blu-Ray reproduction only, if you have multiple sources (HDTV, Streaming/Media Players) then a Reference Pattern Generator will save you a lot of time, by making one calibration for all your devices....

Exactly. And how many people are using a Blu-ray player as their only source? Calibrating the player, if not bit perfect, instead of the display is a poor workaround for the uncertainty of proper pattern output from the computer used. Although if a person is using one of the players that have been tested and are known to be bit perfect using your disk would not be an issue. And contrary to what you posted there quite a few players that are bit perfect. While it is good of you to provide these patterns it does not take away from the fact that the software is being advertized as not needing any type of additional pattern generation and this is not true as 100% compatibility cannot be guaranteed for each and every computer system.
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post #12 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 06:25 AM
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You can use the integrated test pattern generator of LS (via laptop HDMI-out)

This was the whole reason of my post. Contrary to what my be claimed an end user cannot know for sure that the patterns generated are indeed correct. Maybe the success rate is as high as 98% or 99% of the systems used do not alter the output. Even at these percentages how do you know you are not in the 1% or 2% that are affected.
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post #13 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 06:40 AM
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Maybe the success rate is as high as 98% or 99% of the systems used do not alter the output. Even at these percentages how do you know you are not in the 1% or 2% that are affected.

That's an easy thing: use TEDs test pattern disc to verify the HDMI-out of the internal LS test pattern generator. You can also use the Lumagen Radiance in a few days.

By the way: I know a lot of people using the test pattern generator of CalMAN and also the AVSHD 709. The "funny" thing: has anybody worried about the fact, that the test patterns are displayed correctly ?

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
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post #14 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 07:37 AM
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That's an easy thing: use TEDs test pattern disc to verify the HDMI-out of the internal LS test pattern generator. You can also use the Lumagen Radiance in a few days.

By the way: I know a lot of people using the test pattern generator of CalMAN and also the AVSHD 709. The "funny" thing: has anybody worried about the fact, that the test patterns are displayed correctly ?

Exactly, you can run the Quick Profiling of measuring 21-Step Grayscale + 20-Step Luminance or RGBCMY to identify it, using your Blu-Ray Player Output vs. Disk as Source.

Just a grayscale run of AVSHD disk or 4-Step Saturation is not enough...

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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
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post #15 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Derek, you are selling the ColorBox (which is an eeColor with Purple Faceplace with a different firmware) for 1.599$ the same time that LightSpace is selling the eeColor for 600$......

Why it's so big price difference for exact the same hardware for this cosmetic difference?

Why you don't support/sell eeColor (for 600$) @ CalMAN 5 Enthusiast to make the 3D-LUT calibration for affordable for home users?

First off I’m not in the habit of discussing business practices in open forums. But it is called simple business economics you have to make some margin of profit selling a product to cover your fixed overheads. If you don’t then you need to make it up in some other area of your business, these things are called loss leaders. Give them away at or below cost to drive margin in another part of your business. Without one or the other you are not going to be in business very long.

So let’s have a little exercise in business economics by developing a brand new product for distribution and resale. We are going to build a linear space absorber or “LSA” for a new market. You first have to define the market size using a term called TAM “Total Accessible Market” how many could use this new product. From that you calculate how many will actually buy said product “The Need” once it is in the market place. From that you look around and see what other competitive products if any are selling for and if your product has at least one of these two criteria’s: 1) adds more feature for the same cost 2) has same features at much less of a cost. Now we are ready to price our LSA says the analysis above should we can sell this new device for around $1000 retail. Now we need to back out the cost of going into distribution and resellers, you know they need margin as well to stay in business. So the accepted number for distribution and retail this is 35-50% which means we can sell said product to a reseller at $500. Now we need to look at what is called the BOM “Bill of Materials” what is this thing going to cost us to build. But we also need around 50% margin to stay in business and recover engineering, marketing and running costs. So our BOM can’t be more that $250 at the most. So this is how a product that really only cost $250 build but actually cost the consumer $1000. But that is how every product you see today is done. Yes some have high volume and low margin think cell phones. Others have low volume and high margin think of a Ferrari. And the rest are somewhere in between.

So when the eeColor was released by Entertainment Experience it’s retail cost was $1599 and what we and others sold it for. But in our traditional fashion we don’t just resell products we also have some value add. In this case taking a non-linear RGB processor and turning it into a linear RGB processor, in this case with a firmware update and changing all of the 1D ramps the ColorBox.

Now we have the same hardware selling for $600. I will give you one guess at what business model they are using and here is a hint “to stay in business you have to make some margin of profit somewhere in the company”. This is very simple business economics make some margin of profit or go out of business.
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post #16 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 11:50 AM
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So when the eeColor was released by Entertainment Experience it’s retail cost was $1599 and what we and others sold it for. But in our traditional fashion we don’t just resell products we also have some value add. In this case taking a non-linear RGB processor and turning it into a linear RGB processor, in this case with a firmware update and changing all of the 1D ramps the ColorBox.

eeColor Is non-Linear RGB Processor without SpectraCAL's Firmware?

Is this hardware problem or firmware problem that your firmware is solving?....

I don't believe this, The firmware you applyed i believe is for better Direct Control of eeColor but i will ask eeColor directly about that problem.

But the same time you have support for calibrating eeColor using Ultimate Licence, how is this possible?, without firmware update to calibrate eeColor 3D-Cube like you are doing for ColorBox? both have exact the same hardware...
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Now we have the same hardware selling for $600.

None link is avaiable to your Web-Store about selling eeColor for 600$, this price reduction has done from November 2012.

eeColor can be Calibrated with CalMAN Ultimate Licence, so the price reduction doesn't mean anything to home users, you have to add that calibration support for Enthousiast Licence users too.

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post #17 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 12:02 PM
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But the same time you have support for calibrating eeColor using Ultimate Licence, how is this possible?, without firmware update to calibrate eeColor 3D-Cube like you are doing for ColorBox? both have exact the same hardware...
None link is avaiable to your Web-Store about selling eeColor for 600$, this price reduction has done from November 2012.

eeColor can be Calibrated with CalMAN Ultimate Licence, so the price reduction doesn't mean anything to home users, you have to add that calibration support for Enthousiast Licence users too.

"Now we have the same hardware selling for $600." is taken out of context read the whole paragraph. I could have been more direct and said “Now THEY”.

The eeColor we support with other versions of CalMAN is the visual perceptual version we added in over a year and a half ago. The visual perception model calibration does not touch the 3D LUT part of the eeColor only the non-linear input/output 1D ramps and color matrix to account for the display it is connected to. This is so the visual perception model works correctly.

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post #18 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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[*] I agree that color correction beyond the 125-point currently offered by the Lumagen is desirable. This is a moving technological target that was only very recently made available to the home user and the landscape of available options is likely to change in the relatively near future.
[/LIST]

Thanks, Tom, I could not agree more. This thread is about the present state of LightSpace and how it can be affordable to the home consumer. I am enough impressed that I bought it even after many very good looking 125p profile LUTs created with both ChromaPure and CalMAN. The LightSpace Luts, due to the number of points measured, is a little more accurate because the space between the "nearest neighbors" for interpolation is much less. Maybe I can sell it, maybe I can't. Time will tell. Meanwhile, we all know that the biggest increases in picture quality is in hardware technology, not software. UHD, OLED, deep black levels, correct color tracking --- what a concept and I truly hope it happens.

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First off I’m not in the habit of discussing business practices in open forums.

I agree, and let's keep it that way except for my one and only statement below....
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Now we have the same hardware selling for $600. I will give you one guess at what business model they are using and here is a hint “to stay in business you have to make some margin of profit somewhere in the company”. This is very simple business economics make some margin of profit or go out of business.

Thanks for the economics lesson. My undergraduate degree is in business administration but I try learn something new every day. I don't have buildings, employee salaries, employee social security, or ObamaCare as part of my expenses. I'm a one man show with the goal of providing the very best picture available to the high end market of Naples, FL. In the pursuit of that goal I happened upon LightSpace and have been working with Light Illusion for the better part of the last two years and as an offshoot have aligned with Entertainment Experience. I also offer LightSpace at a slight discount from the published price but this has been unannounced until now.

Enough! All the bickering started because of the three words in post number 2. Please keep this thread on the topic of LightSpace.

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post #19 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Enough! All the bickering started because of the three words in post number 2. Please keep this thread on the topic of LightSpace.

Agreed smile.gif

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
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post #20 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Agreed smile.gif

Thx ! I am owner of CalMAN Business Prof., Chroma Pure and also Full LightSpace CMS. I am a home cinema enthusiast and won't struggle about the "best calibration software". NONE of the three apps is perfect, BUT all three apps together are at nearly 100% of "perfection". So I use that parts of the apps I think its nearest to my needs. Easy thing, isn't it ? wink.gif

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
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post #21 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk - Display Characterization Menu
Calibrating using a Reference Pattern Generator means nothing if you Blu-Ray Player later will introduce errors...
Allmost all Blu-Ray Player output has small differencies to their output...

First off, unless the player says Oppo on it, it's a bad idea to be used for calibration at all. In the past year I've seen players from Sony, Pioneer, Yamaha, Panasonic, and Samsung that all output incorrect data at one or all colorspaces. If you're calibrating to that, then everything else is going to look worse. Additionally with the way that the players output incorrectly, the errors aren't correctable. If something has an effective range of 35-240 instead of 16-235, that's not an error you can fix. It's an error that you should replace the player for. If someone is paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars for a LUT system on their system, the idea that they would calibrate to something other than reference standards because their Blu-ray player is incorrect is absurd. They should calibrate to reference, then replace the player.

Chris Heinonen
Senior Editor, Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity, www.hometheaterhifi.com
Displays Editor, AnandTech.com
Contributor, HDGuru.com and Wirecutter.com
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post #22 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 04:30 PM
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TeD, you should always note international values, ie their original values from country of origin. Exchange rates can vary considerably.
Also in many countries you must add import taxes to hardware and software if purchased as packages.
I state this because there is a substantual international following of AVS and pricing can be misleading to some.


As far as software is concerned, this is a case of horses for courses, and more importantly where the end user is coming from, whom arguably fall into 4 camps.
1.DIY
2.Consumer Pro Calibrator
3.Pro Calibrator Broadcast/Consumer/medical
4.Pro Calibrator Broadcast/Postpro/film

The way I see the software, well you must consider the roots of each as the roots define their place and direction. The importance of this is partially perceptual value and actual value for money. I'd also point out, in the pro market there is atleast 3 other major software options outside the 3 noted in comparison here. However Lightspace obviously has strong foundations in colour management in the 4th catergory I listed above.

From here also important to note, technology changes, not software per say, have blured the connection of software designed from pro perspective and DIY/Consumer Pro design.
This leads to the thread starters 2nd paragraph, is this software as affordable as anyone elses software.

I'd say none are affordable for the average consumer, and push to justify for even an enthusiast. But this is where 2 of the software options have their key market where both have very affordable options for camp 1 (DIY) through to Camp 2 Pro Calibrator. Lightspace's direction from Camp 4 has a problem, the roots of TV's with manual calibration can't be controlled by external mathmatical models. Which leads to a physical requirement outside a software option. Until all TV's add 3DLUTs, consumers need to purchase external 3DLUT boxes. None are cheap.

Maybe we should all purchase Lightillusion's cheap eecolor, and use CalMAN or CP with it as the cheapest option. But I suspect Steve could not hold the price if we didn't purchase LS CMS.

The basic problem right now, good as LS probably is considering it's roots and pro use, is that many users have vested interests in the other software options consequently they only might need 3DLUT devices. A number have radiance devices which now have 3DLUT's. Apart from a few enthusiasts you will only find pro's purchasing LS on top of CalMAN or CP.

FWIW, NEC pro monitors come with 3DLUT software and probe. Also compatible with a few pro probes and all Xrite probes. Anyway for this package, about $1100usd. This includes monitor, software and probe. 3DLUT is in the monitor. So begs the question, why is other profiler software so expensive?

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Christchurch NZ
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post #23 of 143 Old 01-27-2013, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

First off, unless the player says Oppo on it, it's a bad idea to be used for calibration at all. In the past year I've seen players from Sony, Pioneer, Yamaha, Panasonic, and Samsung that all output incorrect data at one or all colorspaces. If you're calibrating to that, then everything else is going to look worse. Additionally with the way that the players output incorrectly, the errors aren't correctable. If something has an effective range of 35-240 instead of 16-235, that's not an error you can fix. It's an error that you should replace the player for. If someone is paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars for a LUT system on their system, the idea that they would calibrate to something other than reference standards because their Blu-ray player is incorrect is absurd. They should calibrate to reference, then replace the player.

A True 17-Point Cube Correction LUT (Not interpolated from lower points) will fix these player anomanies, Profiling using Reference Pattern Generator is useness if your player later will introduce new errors.

Some errors maybe can't fully fixed but a lot of them will be fixed.

Using a disk as a pattern generator (from an inaccurate player) will provide you better final image vs. calibrating with Reference Pattern Generator.

If you have a reference output player then both ways (Disk or Pattern Generator) will be the same.

If you compare different pattern generators together, im sure you will find small differencies... So which is Reference?

Using some disks you can find the correct colorspace combination for your setup, to my upcoming disk i have add some patterns to check for player/LUT anomalies also. wink.gif

Ted&#039;s LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk - Color Reproduction Menu

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #24 of 143 Old 01-28-2013, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post


Maybe we should all purchase Lightillusion's cheap eecolor, and use CalMAN or CP with it as the cheapest option. But I suspect Steve could not hold the price if we didn't purchase LS CMS.

The basic problem right now, good as LS probably is considering it's roots and pro use, is that many users have vested interests in the other software options consequently they only might need 3DLUT devices. A number have radiance devices which now have 3DLUT's. Apart from a few enthusiasts you will only find pro's purchasing LS on top of CalMAN or CP.

FWIW, NEC pro monitors come with 3DLUT software and probe. Also compatible with a few pro probes and all Xrite probes. Anyway for this package, about $1100usd. This includes monitor, software and probe. 3DLUT is in the monitor. So begs the question, why is other profiler software so expensive?

From the head of Light Illusion:

We will happily sell eeColor boxes at the quoted price to any users of any software - they ARE NOT loss leaders, as SpectraCal suggested!.
And Buzz will do the same I am sure...

And, the inbuilt NEC calibration is very poor - much like we have found with just about all other inbuilt display calibration, and is why so many of them are adopting LightSpace CMS as their new default calibration solution 0 Penta, SmallHD, and FSI so far - and Eizo have just entered an NDA with us.

Also... our Chief Colour Scientist is the same person that developed the colour pipeline for ILM (Industrial Light And Magic), Weta and Park Road Post (King Kong, Lord Of The Rings, and The Hobbit, etc...), and many more, while I have personally done many others.

Also, our Chief Colour Scientist was also responsible for the colour science in TrueLight.

So, we do have a rather large amount of colour science knowledge.

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post #25 of 143 Old 01-28-2013, 07:02 AM
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Ted, as I have already stated you should be commended for offering your disk to users free of charge. So this is not being asked as a slam against you or your disk. As two of the selling features of LS is speed and accuracy how long will I need to sit with the BD player remote moving from screen to screen and how many times do I need to push buttons. I think this is relevant when dismissing the need for a Radiance which requires no user interaction during an auto calibration. Also how have you verified your images to a traceable standard?
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post #26 of 143 Old 01-28-2013, 09:21 AM
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Ted, as I have already stated you should be commended for offering your disk to users free of charge. So this is not being asked as a slam against you or your disk. As two of the selling features of LS is speed and accuracy how long will I need to sit with the BD player remote moving from screen to screen and how many times do I need to push buttons. I think this is relevant when dismissing the need for a Radiance which requires no user interaction during an auto calibration. Also how have you verified your images to a traceable standard?

I have replyed to your post here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1454804/teds-lightspace-cms-calibration-disk#post_22890565

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #27 of 143 Old 01-28-2013, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

I have replyed to your post here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1454804/teds-lightspace-cms-calibration-disk#post_22890565

Thanks. smile.gif
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post #28 of 143 Old 01-28-2013, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

From the head of Light Illusion:

We will happily sell eeColor boxes at the quoted price to any users of any software - they ARE NOT loss leaders, as SpectraCal suggested!.
And Buzz will do the same I am sure...

And, the inbuilt NEC calibration is very poor - much like we have found with just about all other inbuilt display calibration, and is why so many of them are adopting LightSpace CMS as their new default calibration solution 0 Penta, SmallHD, and FSI so far - and Eizo have just entered an NDA with us.

Also... our Chief Colour Scientist is the same person that developed the colour pipeline for ILM (Industrial Light And Magic), Weta and Park Road Post (King Kong, Lord Of The Rings, and The Hobbit, etc...), and many more, while I have personally done many others.

Also, our Chief Colour Scientist was also responsible for the colour science in TrueLight.

So, we do have a rather large amount of colour science knowledge.

Buzz and Light illusion , was never suggesting the science was not well founded, surely it is as I pointed out from LI roots. Quite aware of LS use at park road etc etc.

I personally have roughly $20k worth of calibration equipment, my vested interest is with CalMAN, however it, like LS is a tool and I consider tools on a case by case basis where I have to invest into new equipment to supply the service. In this regard I can't justify LS investment over and above CalMAN without it returning a bottom line, irrispective of software design and design limitations. The problem for consumers is cost, always is and always will be, the point here is the "affordibility" or value is based upon personal position and more often justifcation. ie Affordable or of interest to <5% of the market.

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Christchurch NZ
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post #29 of 143 Old 01-28-2013, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post

Buzz and Light illusion , was never suggesting the science was not well founded, surely it is as I pointed out from LI roots. Quite aware of LS use at park road etc etc.

I personally have roughly $20k worth of calibration equipment, my vested interest is with CalMAN, however it, like LS is a tool and I consider tools on a case by case basis where I have to invest into new equipment to supply the service. In this regard I can't justify LS investment over and above CalMAN without it returning a bottom line, irrispective of software design and design limitations. The problem for consumers is cost, always is and always will be, the point here is the "affordibility" or value is based upon personal position and more often justifcation. ie Affordable or of interest to <5% of the market.

Spend 600$ more for buying the eeColor and ask from Steve A Free Evaluation Licence...

I risked and bought eeColor (I had bought before 2 months a brand new Lumagen Mini) just for testing it, i was using CalMAN-Lumagen before and after trying eeColor/LightSpace combination i bought immediatelly the LightSpace Software because i saw difference, not only after loading the LUT but every day im opening my KURO, i'm seeing colors, skintones, depth that it's like i bought a new TV!

Just for your Info, from the 5 users we used the evaluation versions of LightSpace 5/5 they bought software, 3 of them were private users like me.... (A lot of others have bought LightSpace Home Cinema Version also, outside of our group)

With Respect, If you or any other here haven't trying any of these professional grade solutions (THX CineCube or LightSpace), you can't have opinion or say anything about if it's worth the money or not...

Before 4 months, Reference Display Calibration was a perfect 6-Color Calibrated display, before 2 months 125 colors made so big impression to anyone who has using it.... 4913 Colors...... You have to see it to believe it!

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #30 of 143 Old 01-28-2013, 06:23 PM
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I was interested in the Light Illusion to allow a true 3D LUT that is normally reserved for production houses in consumer homes. However, the cost of getting yet another software on top of all that was invested was a little too much for me. To be fair, Light Illusion's software solution is priced for the pro and depending on the geographical location of the pro, it might be a little too much for my region. I have done some work for studios in my region and will see if they are interested in this option before deciding if this road is worth the journey.
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