Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk - Page 14 - AVS Forum
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Display Calibration > Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk
anta1974's Avatar anta1974 05:26 AM 04-15-2014
Dear TED!
In your disk white stimulus levels as Old AVS (round-nearest) or Current AVS(round-down)?
For example
50 IRE - 126 or 125?

ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 06:02 AM 04-15-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Dear TED!
In your disk white stimulus levels as Old AVS (round-nearest) or Current AVS(round-down)?
For example
50 IRE - 126 or 125?

Hello, all the CalMAN/ChromaPure Chapter Patterns, every single color patch has created based to the exact RGB Triplet as CalMAN 5.2.x / ChromaPure 2.x Internal Engine works/expects. Also the pattern order of any Chapter is based to the exact same pattern order sequence that CalMAN/ChromaPure requests them.

You have not to worry about rounding problems becasue I have used the Exact RGB Triplet Targets.

A Quick Example of Grayscale Patches of AVSHD Disk vs. CalMAN/ChromaPure Intenal Engine Targets is here:


anta1974's Avatar anta1974 07:11 AM 04-15-2014
What use RGB Triplet for 75 sat 75 luma for CalMan and Chromapure?
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 07:52 AM 04-15-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

What use RGB Triplet for 75 sat 75 luma for CalMan and Chromapure?

For example Red with 75% Saturation @ 75% Stimulus Level we have:

CalMAN's Engine RGB Triplet: 180.64.64

ChromaPure's Engine RGB Triplet: 165.60.60
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 02:02 PM 04-19-2014






CalMAN 5 Workflows (For Ted's Lightspace CMS Calibration Disk Users) UpdaTED!

Hello and happy Easter!

I have just send to all Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk users the new versions of the 2 CalMAN 5 Exclusive Workflows to improve their Calibration Reports.

One new page added to the Pre-Calibration Tools Workflow and two new pages to the Verify Calibration Tools Workflow.

Color Temperature Comparison: Here you can overview your pre/post calibration White Point tracking of your 21-Point Grayscale measurements.

Color Comparator Comparison: Here you can overview your pre/post calibration 21-Point Grayscale and Color Checker Classic measurements by using the CalMAN's Color Comparator to visualize the changes.

I have updated also my website page with preview screens for these new CalMAN 5 Workflows for Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration for Disk Users.
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar PlasmaPZ80U 10:49 AM 04-20-2014
I just downloaded and took a quick look through these new workflows and I have to say I'm quite impressed, especially with the new color comparator sections. Everything appears to be meticulously created and the next time I calibrate one of my TVs I'll be sure to try it out.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 03:24 PM 04-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I just downloaded and took a quick look through these new workflows and I have to say I'm quite impressed, especially with the new color comparator sections. Everything appears to be meticulously created and the next time I calibrate one of my TVs I'll be sure to try it out.

Nice, I'm getting good feedback from other users too wink.gif Thanks.
anta1974's Avatar anta1974 11:34 AM 04-23-2014
Dear TED!
ChadB write for calibration Panasonic VT30
"The image displayed immediately before a measurement run can have a significant influence on the outcome of those measurements. If a gray ramp is displayed immediately before a calibration run, the measurements will be different than if a scrolling bar is displayed immediately before the run. Therefore, it is important to pick what you intend to display before each run, and then display it consistently before EACH MEASUREMENT RUN."

Сan be inserted in your drive before each pattern image gray ramp ?
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 02:41 AM 04-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Dear TED!
ChadB write for calibration Panasonic VT30
"The image displayed immediately before a measurement run can have a significant influence on the outcome of those measurements. If a gray ramp is displayed immediately before a calibration run, the measurements will be different than if a scrolling bar is displayed immediately before the run. Therefore, it is important to pick what you intend to display before each run, and then display it consistently before EACH MEASUREMENT RUN."

Сan be inserted in your drive before each pattern image gray ramp ?

Hi, these Panasonic VT30's are very sensitive displays to calibrate. There is no need to add any Grayscale Pattern before each read, there is no logic about adding such that pattern... why a grayscale and not a full field white? There is no point... Just the VT30 is 'tired' after leaving some pattern for some time and reducing it's peak output and this is changing the rgb balance at some steps also...

My approach for VT30's grayscale calibration is to use my disk with 6 sec per patch automatic pattern autochange which includes 1.5 sec of black frame between each grayscale patch, and only run always the whole chapter at once, after the end of the 11-Point Grayscale measurements to go to the TV's menu and make the RGB Balance adjustments.....after that press to quick change from TV's remote from your current input to an another input for 1-2 sec and go again to the input you was using to take the measurements....and then re-run the same grayscale chapter again to see the differencies....Not trying to stay at the same patch for some time to try to correct it's RGB balance with continious measurements...

External Pattern Generators don't have that black 1.5 sec space between each pattern, that's why Chad used an another pattern between these grayscale steps, but the black frames insertions I use doing good job.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 11:35 AM 04-27-2014
Main_Menu.png




I have just downloaded the new Beta Version of Fiji's IS-Mini Manager.

You can use that software that is coming with Fiji-IS Mini 3D LUT Box for display profing.

Fiji IS-Mini works also as a hardware pattern generator and I saw at it's Settings window that it has by default the 640x360 pixels of Window Pattern size which is the exact size like my disk's window patterns.....like the Lumagen Radiance Window Patterns 11,11% are using also wink.gif

This shows that the Profesional Industry where Fuji IS-Mini is deigined to be used, the default window size is 11,11% for color patches.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 10:39 AM 04-30-2014
For Digital Download Users of Blu-Ray ISO here is some artwork for the Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Version 1.1:

CD Sticker for users with Disk Direct Printers / Printed Paper Disk Stickers: http://www.displaycalibrations.com/images/disk_labels/Disk_Label_(Version_1_1).png

CD Case Front Label (Dimensions based on Slim CD Case): http://www.displaycalibrations.com/images/disk_labels/CD_Case_Label_(Version_1_1).png
DrFaxe's Avatar DrFaxe 04:49 AM 05-08-2014
Hi Ted,

thanks a lot for Your new disk version. I used it last weekend to calibrate and verify my TV. The new chapter time selection is really a big benefit, no usage of the RC necessary anymore. It's so convenient now.

I can't say it often enough, Your disk is truely a must have for everyone!!!!!!


Does the RGB triplets used for Calman match HCFR?
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 12:30 AM 05-09-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Hi Ted,

thanks a lot for Your new disk version. I used it last weekend to calibrate and verify my TV. The new chapter time selection is really a big benefit, no usage of the RC necessary anymore. It's so convenient now.

I can't say it often enough, Your disk is truely a must have for everyone!!!!!!


Does the RGB triplets used for Calman match HCFR?

Hi, I don't have the RGB Triplet Targets that HCFR's Engine is based to answer to your question.

Please ask this quastion to the HCFR Thread of AVSForum.

Zoyd, who is behind HCFR development is using my disk also so it's easier to make a test and confirm which chapters (CalMAN or Chromapure) are compatible and can be used by HCFR software users also.
DrFaxe's Avatar DrFaxe 06:38 AM 05-09-2014
Hi Ted,

thanks for the reply. The question is now answered, thanks to member anta1974.

Please see following:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1393853/hcfr-open-source-projector-and-display-calibration-software/3450#post_24699708

HCFR supports the GCD, and GCD uses RGB triplets for ChromaPure. You can see in the GCD thread that Tom provided the Data for the GCD disk.

Finally this makes Your disk compatible to all software solutions. HCFR users just have to select the ChromaPure chapters of Your disk.
Also nice to see that HCFR will support Your Calman ColorChecker SG patches soon.

Thanks a lot for Your incredible work Ted.
anta1974's Avatar anta1974 05:57 AM 05-10-2014
Dear TED!
Why do not you add patterns for chromapure for calibration 75 luma/ 75 saturation for gamma=2.35 and gamma=2.4 and gamma=2.25 and gamma=2.30?
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 11:27 AM 05-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Dear TED!
Why do not you add patterns for chromapure for calibration 75 luma/ 75 saturation for gamma=2.35 and gamma=2.4 and gamma=2.25 and gamma=2.30?

ChromaPure's Color Engine Calculations are based to 2.22 Gamma, that's why I'm using 2.22 note above to my all ChromaPure chapters i'm using to my calibration disk.

This affects only Color Gamut / Saturation / Color Checker measurements only, not the Grayscale.

Before 3 years when I was CalMAN 5.0.0 beta tester, the first versions had the same issue, the RGB Triplets for any single Color Gamut / Saturation pathes were not fixed and were moving when you was changing the Target Gamma Value from 2.2 to any other value.

To solve this for my calibration I was using an unreleased in public version of my calibration disk (2011) where I had different chapter patterns for every users's entered Gamma value, like these chapters below.

But this was making so difficult to give compatibility to external pattern generators (without full RGB Triplet Support) or Calibrations disk to follow with so many chapter for every possible entered gamma value so later CalMAN's developement team decided to use a fixed RGB Triplet for all Color Gamut / Saturation / Color Checker patches but move the Targets of every xyY upon any entered gamma value. So the Patterns were the same, just the CalMAN's calculations were re-directed to different xyY targers.

For any future version of Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk, I have no plans to add all these possible gamma values chapters for ChromaPure users.

It's a better idea to ask from Tom from ChromaPure to add dropdown menu in ChromaPure settings where the user will be able to select the ChromaPure's Engine Gamma Value Calculations to re-direct/move the xyY targets uppon any selected gamma value so the patterns will be the same just the calculations will be changed only.

But the differencies in dE are not so great to be noticed.

If you like you can use the ColorChecker of my disk (which is based to Gamma 2.22) of ChromaPure and take the measurements with 2.22 Gamma selected in ChromaPure and later re-measure with 2.30 or 2.35 gamma selected, and post here or to ChromaPure's thread the ColorChecker dE Reports to show the differencies.
anta1974's Avatar anta1974 11:40 AM 05-11-2014
And add your disk 2011 sale!
What's the problem?
Everyone chooses himself what he will need to.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 11:42 AM 05-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

And add your disk 2011 sale!
What's the problem?
Everyone chooses himself what he will need to.

2011 Disk had different Gamma Chapters for CalMAN, not for ChromaPure.
anta1974's Avatar anta1974 11:44 AM 05-11-2014
old calman engine=chromapure engine
add without color checker
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 11:51 AM 05-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

old calman engine=chromapure engine
add without color checker

CalMAN/ChromaPure = are totally different.

Please ask from Tom to add that feature and run the test I suggested to you above to see the dE differencies. Post the results later.
anta1974's Avatar anta1974 11:54 AM 05-11-2014
old calman not different chromapure,wrote about it spectracal
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 12:01 PM 05-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

old calman not different chromapure,wrote about it spectracal

This is not correct, they are totally different....

For example @ 4-Step Saturation (100SAT-100AMP):

50% Red Saturation has RGB Triplet for:

CalMAN Engine: 235.115.115
ChromaPure Engine: 191.96.96


anta1974's Avatar anta1974 12:46 PM 05-11-2014
Sotti
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

CP has fixed reduced sat target points. In CP, the triplet (color/intensity of the pattern) is changed according to your target gamma.

In CM V5 the reduced sat target points are changed according to your target gamma. The triplets are fixed no matter what gamma is used/targeted.

That's correct.

We used to recalculate the triplets early in the CalMAN 5 beta but changed it as it neared release. The reason was that if you changed the gamma (especially with something like BT.1886 that dynamically adjusts based on black level), then none of your measurements would be valid. So by fixing the triplets and recalculating the targets, the readings are always valid, but their targets may shift a bit, but at least the data is always correct.

You can see the triplets we show in CalMAN by adding the triplets into the data grid.

The one time we do change the triplets is when change the actual gamut size (rec.709->SMPTE-C->DCI).
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 12:55 PM 05-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Sotti
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

CP has fixed reduced sat target points. In CP, the triplet (color/intensity of the pattern) is changed according to your target gamma.

In CM V5 the reduced sat target points are changed according to your target gamma. The triplets are fixed no matter what gamma is used/targeted.

That's correct.

We used to recalculate the triplets early in the CalMAN 5 beta but changed it as it neared release. The reason was that if you changed the gamma (especially with something like BT.1886 that dynamically adjusts based on black level), then none of your measurements would be valid. So by fixing the triplets and recalculating the targets, the readings are always valid, but their targets may shift a bit, but at least the data is always correct.

You can see the triplets we show in CalMAN by adding the triplets into the data grid.

The one time we do change the triplets is when change the actual gamut size (rec.709->SMPTE-C->DCI).

That's exactly what I wrote to you to my previous posts.

CalMAN vs. ChromaPure RGB Triplets are different, there is no match anywhere exept the 100%SAT/100%AMPL or 100%SAT/75%AMPL RGBCMY Patches.

Fixed CalMAN/ChromaPure or non-fixed CalMAN/ChromaPure patches are not compatible.
anta1974's Avatar anta1974 02:50 PM 05-11-2014
Then you have to create and add to chromapure desired patterns at different gamma - 2.25,2.30,2.35 and 2.4- in the next version of the your disc
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 02:57 PM 05-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Then you have to create and add to chromapure desired patterns at different gamma - 2.25,2.30,2.35 and 2.4- in the next version of the your disc

As I told you before, I will not do that at any future version of my disk.

Do the test I told you at my earlier post end tell us what dE differencies you see.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 03:06 PM 05-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Then you have to create and add to chromapure desired patterns at different gamma - 2.25,2.30,2.35 and 2.4- in the next version of the your disc

It has no point for any calibration disk to add multiple ChromaPure Chapters for any gamma value for ChromaPure since the ChromaPure's Engine is working to 2.22 Gamma for Saturation/Luminance modules except the ColorChecker.

I did that at past because CalMAN Beta had the option to select the target gamma value for your calibration session, so it was possible to use difference chapters with patches created for targers based to 2.22 or 2.35 etc.....per user's target gamma selection.

Current ChromaPure don't have the option to select the target gamma value for your calibration session for it's internall calculations.

Does this makes sense now? Did you fully understand it?

If in the future ChromaPure adds a selection at it's settings to calculate the dE based to different than 2.22 at Saturation Run for example, then it will be possible for someone to use different Chapters created with different gamma values (2.25, 2.30, etc.).
Iron Mike's Avatar Iron Mike 03:14 PM 05-11-2014
one thing I'd love to see on this fantastic disk is a set of custom, optimized points... but that's gonna be hard to choose as there are so many variations for the various display types and meter speeds...

maybe start with adding a general 1000+ pt validation profile, arranged dark/bright as that can be used as a general validation base by anybody, obviously one could also optimize this set specific to your display source (TV / PJ etc) and meter speed but on DCT lots of peeps have used a general 1000+ pt set....

and in addition a 101pt GS run....

what do u think, Ted ?

any space left on that disk ??? biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
anta1974's Avatar anta1974 03:15 PM 05-11-2014
Different patterns only for 75 luma and 75,50,25 saturation for different gamma!
For 100 saturation no difference for different gamma!
You would have to add only
1) minimum - 75 luma/75 sat for gamma 2.35
2) maximum - 75 luma/75 sat,50 sat,25 sat for gamma 2.4,2.35,2.3,2.25 and color checker.
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar ConnecTEDDD 03:26 PM 05-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by anta1974 View Post

Different patterns only for 75 luma and 75,50,25 saturation for different gamma!
For 100 luma no difference for different gamma!
You would have to add only
1) minimum - 75 luma/75 sat for gamma 2.35
2) maximum - 75 luma/75 sat,50 sat,25 sat for gamma 2.4,2.35,2.3,2.25 and color checker.

Please read my posts above, It makes only sense for Color Checker!

@ my version 1.0 I had ColorChecker based on Gamma 2.20 and 2.22

@ my version 1.1 I have ColorChecker based on Gamma 2.22

@ any upcoming version x.x I will have ColorChecker based to 2.22 again.

Please read again all above posts. Thanks.
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