Spyder4 Elite or HD TV for JVC X30 calibration? (And PC LCD monitor too) - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 9 Old 01-31-2013, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Webmonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Hi guys!

I am looking to buy my first DIY calibration device, mainly for my JVC X30 projector, but also to get my old Dell 2405FPW calibrated, as I am an enthusiastic photographer too.


From looking at their website, both the Elite and HD TV support projectors. Now I am wondering, if the Elite can do some tricks or is more accurate than the HD TV?


The cost is only 50% more for the Elite version and it would be nice to have some kind of future proofing and being able to also do glossy iMac screens :-)
Webmonkey is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 9 Old 01-31-2013, 07:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
Posts: 4,429
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 88
I'm not a fan of the Spyder Colorimeter series... have you considered the X-Rite i1Display Pro EOSDIS3 (Colorimeter) or X-Rite ColorMunki Photo or Design Spectrophotometer?

ColorMunki Photo or Design info: http://www.colormunki.com/

I always recommend a i1Pro Spectrometer (spectrophotometer), even a used i1Pro Rev D ($250-$450) is great, ColorMunki Spectro is my 2nd choice

Why a Spectro, see why here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1373556/i1-pro-or-d3-if-you-could-only-have-one-meter

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/

And Read this Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449310/eye-one-pro-or-display-3-pro
Webmonkey likes this.

Need to find a Professional Calibrator? Click Here to PM me with your Display & City

Calibrator List - Pioneer ISFccc Interface

Calibration Reports - Pioneer

 

ControlCAL™
Designed by Calibrators for Calibrators™

No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

turbe is online now  
post #3 of 9 Old 02-01-2013, 03:25 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Webmonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I'm not a fan of the Spyder Colorimeter series... have you considered the X-Rite i1Display Pro EOSDIS3 (Colorimeter) or X-Rite ColorMunki Photo or Design Spectrophotometer?

ColorMunki Photo or Design info: http://www.colormunki.com/

I always recommend a i1Pro Spectrometer (spectrophotometer), even a used i1Pro Rev D ($250-$450) is great, ColorMunki Spectro is my 2nd choice

Why a Spectro, see why here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1373556/i1-pro-or-d3-if-you-could-only-have-one-meter

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/

And Read this Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449310/eye-one-pro-or-display-3-pro

Hi! Thanks for the info.

I have not considered the X-rite - as I never heard about them before :-D


I am starting to think that the projector support for Spyder is related to getting the image from the laptop connected correct and not my blu-ray (?).
Webmonkey is offline  
post #4 of 9 Old 02-04-2013, 01:13 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Webmonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Hi!

I found a dealer over here for the X-Rite i1Display Pro - same prices as the Spyder4 Elite - but the photo/design edition is double of that.
Webmonkey is offline  
post #5 of 9 Old 02-04-2013, 11:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 226
If you are trying to match printer output to a CRT or flat-screen computer monitor, you need the graphics version of the meter... but absolutely make sure it is still capable of calibrati8ng a projector.

One of the problems with inexpensive meters is that many of them cannot read light (effectively) when it is reflected from a projection screen. You must turn the meter so that it is measuring the light from the projector BEFORE it gets to the screen. This is a major problem for home projector calibration because the screen itself affects calibration. Some screens actually change the color balance of the reflected light... so if the projector is calibrated perfectly, and you use a screen that shifts color a little, what you are seeing will be a color-shifted version of the accurate projector. So you want a meter that will read light directly from the projection screen and be reliable about it.

Projection screens are also overall, darker than CRTs or flat panel displays so you need a meter that is good (and relatively fast) when measuring the darker end of the luminance scale so you aren't waiting around forever each time you measure 10% white. Many inexpensive meters have fairly poor low light performance.

Finally, any colorimeter you purchase will degrade with time... it is an inevitable outcome. The filters inside the meter change as they age and you cannot stop it (low humidity, darkness, and cool temperatures can slow the process, but it cannot be stopped). So if you want a meter that will be useful over the long haul and not have to be replaced every 3-5 years, you need to be sure that you purchase a meter that can be recalibrated... many, probably most, low cost meters cannot be recalibrated.

There is also something called meter profiling where you measure something with a highly accurate (and expensive meter) and you measure the same something with the inexpensive meter and a correction table is created to make the inexpensive meter's readings more like the readings of the expensive reference meter. Some companies may offer this service for a fee... it is a way of extending the life of an inexpensive meter before it needs to be recalibrated.

All these issues are among the reasons people hire professional calibrators... they maintain their instruments and generally use higher-end meters that the DIY person is likely to be using.

Just in case you're having trouble reading between the lines... you are being steered away from the Spyder series meters for very good reasons. Just because a meter exists doesn't mean it is useful/usable for every/any application.
Webmonkey likes this.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #6 of 9 Old 02-04-2013, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Webmonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

If you are trying to match printer output to a CRT or flat-screen computer monitor, you need the graphics version of the meter... but absolutely make sure it is still capable of calibrati8ng a projector.

One of the problems with inexpensive meters is that many of them cannot read light (effectively) when it is reflected from a projection screen. You must turn the meter so that it is measuring the light from the projector BEFORE it gets to the screen. This is a major problem for home projector calibration because the screen itself affects calibration. Some screens actually change the color balance of the reflected light... so if the projector is calibrated perfectly, and you use a screen that shifts color a little, what you are seeing will be a color-shifted version of the accurate projector. So you want a meter that will read light directly from the projection screen and be reliable about it.

Projection screens are also overall, darker than CRTs or flat panel displays so you need a meter that is good (and relatively fast) when measuring the darker end of the luminance scale so you aren't waiting around forever each time you measure 10% white. Many inexpensive meters have fairly poor low light performance.

Finally, any colorimeter you purchase will degrade with time... it is an inevitable outcome. The filters inside the meter change as they age and you cannot stop it (low humidity, darkness, and cool temperatures can slow the process, but it cannot be stopped). So if you want a meter that will be useful over the long haul and not have to be replaced every 3-5 years, you need to be sure that you purchase a meter that can be recalibrated... many, probably most, low cost meters cannot be recalibrated.

There is also something called meter profiling where you measure something with a highly accurate (and expensive meter) and you measure the same something with the inexpensive meter and a correction table is created to make the inexpensive meter's readings more like the readings of the expensive reference meter. Some companies may offer this service for a fee... it is a way of extending the life of an inexpensive meter before it needs to be recalibrated.

All these issues are among the reasons people hire professional calibrators... they maintain their instruments and generally use higher-end meters that the DIY person is likely to be using.

Just in case you're having trouble reading between the lines... you are being steered away from the Spyder series meters for very good reasons. Just because a meter exists doesn't mean it is useful/usable for every/any application.


Well, my JVC X30 is 1. priority to get calibrated - then my Dell 2405FPW monitor which I use with my macbook pro.

For now, it looks like I am going for the X-rite i1Display Pro for the same price as the Spyder4 Elite.
Webmonkey is offline  
post #7 of 9 Old 02-05-2013, 08:18 AM
Senior Member
 
visca blaugrana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
the Colormunki is £290 http://www.fotosense.co.uk/x-rite-colormunki-photo.html?gclid=CK7O9ezGn7UCFXHLtAod13QAOw#fo_c=77&fo_k=fc4f3ff8a48747b69956a6b3c20a139e&fo_s=gplauk
and the i!Display Pro is £166 http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0055MBQOW/?tag=hydra0b-21&hvadid=9550953069&ref=asc_df_B0055MBQOW

so yes the colormunki is more expensive, however you also get a more acurate meter, no need to eplaine that as the links turbe (sorry:) ) posted does that way better then I ever could.
that said are you not prepared to spend the ~£300 then the Display Pro is a very good meter, and you will defenetly get a meter you can be happy with.
visca blaugrana is offline  
post #8 of 9 Old 02-05-2013, 10:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
Posts: 4,429
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 88
tube ('r' button broke?) frown.gif

Isn't there a rebate the the ColorMunki's going on in the UK? perhaps that ended..

Need to find a Professional Calibrator? Click Here to PM me with your Display & City

Calibrator List - Pioneer ISFccc Interface

Calibration Reports - Pioneer

 

ControlCAL™
Designed by Calibrators for Calibrators™

No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

turbe is online now  
post #9 of 9 Old 02-05-2013, 11:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,453
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post

Well, my JVC X30 is 1. priority to get calibrated - then my Dell 2405FPW monitor which I use with my macbook pro.

For now, it looks like I am going for the X-rite i1Display Pro for the same price as the Spyder4 Elite.

And you are OK with the fact that this meter will degrade over time to the point it will become visibly inaccurate? And have you researched whether this meter can be recalibrated in the future? And have you researched whether that meter will read light reflected off the projection screen? Because if it cannot measure light reflected from a projection screen, then you will not have calibrated images... period. The screen is an integral element of the image and it causes all sorts of shifts that are not detectable by looking at the screen... in other words, the screen may look perfectly neutral (white or gray), but the light the screen reflects may measure too blue or too red or too green or some combination of too much or too little of colors... heck, the screen might even be non-linear which you'd never know if you can't measure light reflected from the projection screen..

I didn't write that long post simply to steer you away from the Spyder meter... just because you select a different meter doesn't mean that meter will do what you expect it to do. I'm not saying the i1DisplayPro won't do what you expect it to do... I don't know one way or the other. All I'm saying is that you cannot assume it will do what you want it to do -- you have to do the research if you haven't done it already. EXAMPLE: If the literature says something innocent-sounding like "can also be used as an incident meter for measuring video projectors by inserting the (supplied) filter" -- that's a huge red flag because it is telling you that the meter CANNOT be used to measure light reflected from the projection screen.

Getting a meter for calibrating a projector takes extra research because meters geared for flat panel displays, like most of the lower-cost meters, often are worthless or nearly worthless for projector calibration.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
ISF -- HAA -- www.dBtheatrical.com
Widescreen Review -- Home Theater & Sound
Doug Blackburn is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off