If you are over 65 and have impaired color vision due to cataract yellowing you may want to calibrate to other than the Rec. 709 standard - Page 3 - AVS Forum

AVS Forum > Display Devices > Display Calibration > If you are over 65 and have impaired color vision due to cataract yellowing you may want to calibrate to other than the Rec. 709 standard

Display Calibration

mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
07:27 PM Liked: 585
post #61 of 83
02-10-2013 | Posts: 20,239
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Thank you. Request sent.
umr's Avatar umr
12:17 AM Liked: 35
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02-15-2013 | Posts: 10,146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

thanks for all the posts. UMR and SJSCHAFF, you guys get my point. and UMR recognize that in many imstances the color calibrator can make things beter by deviating from the standard.

My eyes and brain are summing together and are giving me a balance between the correct clear eye color and tghe yellow eye. but the eyes can not change the color to what the standard through the defined standard viewer would see. If the brain could correct like that, there would be no need to color calibrate for the home viewer.

UMR let me know when you are coming through the DC area. I just don't have the expertise to adjust the colors for the required offsets. Thanks. And to those that are arguing with me, I appreciate the viewpoints and the time you are investing for me in your posts. Thank you all very much.

Sorry about being slow to respond. I just don't look at AVS much anymore.

I will get with you for my June trip.
JimP
05:22 AM Liked: 199
post #63 of 83
02-18-2013 | Posts: 15,494
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Mark,

I get where you're coming from.

I have some cokin A series square photographic filters that may help you. I'll have to check, but it seems that I have several shades of blue.

They're made of some kind of thick plastic. If one of them gives you the correct color correction, you can have a local optical shop cut and put into an eyeglass frame.

If you're interested, I'll send them to you at no cost.

Just PM me an address.


..
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
08:07 AM Liked: 585
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02-18-2013 | Posts: 20,239
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Thanks for the offer.

My address is


Mark Haflich
22200 Zion Road
Brookeville, MD 20833

the problem I fear through experimentation so far, that the yellow eye is so heavily filtered already that the right eye is already so much brighter that the left eye can't tolerate any additional filtering, it gets way too dim.
gtgray's Avatar gtgray
08:32 AM Liked: 55
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02-18-2013 | Posts: 3,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Thanks for the offer.

My address is


Mark Haflich
22200 Zion Road
Brookeville, MD 20833

the problem I fear through experimentation so far, that the yellow eye is so heavily filtered already that the right eye is already so much brighter that the left eye can't tolerate any additional filtering, it gets way too dim.

You may find that your opthamologist will determine it appropriate now to do surgery on the second eye. For some reasons there are some legal concerns that eye surgeons face in justifying these surgeries. I had my doctor tell me several times it would be years before I could do the second eye. I came in to see him for a non-related issue asked about the second eye and he said no problem we can do that.

It seems that the law and payers are concerned with unecessary surgery and its potential for abuse as well as the risks. I was still seeing reasonably well but like you had a severe mismatch in color vision between the two eyes after the first surgery. My ex wife was in her late forties when she had both eyes done over about a two year period. Again, they initially did not want to do the second eye. Another doctor was consulted and he did the second cataract without further delay.
JimP
09:45 AM Liked: 199
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02-18-2013 | Posts: 15,494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Thanks for the offer.

My address is


Mark Haflich
22200 Zion Road
Brookeville, MD 20833

the problem I fear through experimentation so far, that the yellow eye is so heavily filtered already that the right eye is already so much brighter that the left eye can't tolerate any additional filtering, it gets way too dim.

I see what you mean. That might be a good thing in that the doctors would then be more willing to do the surgery.

In any case, I came across some yellow filters that I've also included with the blue ones in the box. Maybe you can do a combination that'll get you there.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
09:54 AM Liked: 585
post #67 of 83
02-18-2013 | Posts: 20,239
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There are diagniosis to justify the risks. That is not really the problem. The risk doesn't change just the benifits of curing what was diagnosed. But its curing more of a mental thing like its driving me craxzy and its impinged upon my sex life etc. I could get reputable doctors to do the syrgery but I would have to fake its effect on me. Once again, it all boils down to risk.
sotti's Avatar sotti
09:54 AM Liked: 175
post #68 of 83
02-18-2013 | Posts: 6,640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

the problem I fear through experimentation so far, that the yellow eye is so heavily filtered already that the right eye is already so much brighter that the left eye can't tolerate any additional filtering, it gets way too dim.

Another idea would be to get a neutral density filter for the right eye to attenuate the light to a similar level.

I would tend to agree with gtgray, if the cataracts is that obvious to you, find a doctor to fix it.
Wouter73's Avatar Wouter73
10:44 AM Liked: 34
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02-18-2013 | Posts: 324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

You may find that your opthamologist will determine it appropriate now to do surgery on the second eye. For some reasons there are some legal concerns that eye surgeons face in justifying these surgeries. I had my doctor tell me several times it would be years before I could do the second eye. I came in to see him for a non-related issue asked about the second eye and he said no problem we can do that.

It seems that the law and payers are concerned with unecessary surgery and its potential for abuse as well as the risks. I was still seeing reasonably well but like you had a severe mismatch in color vision between the two eyes after the first surgery. My ex wife was in her late forties when she had both eyes done over about a two year period. Again, they initially did not want to do the second eye. Another doctor was consulted and he did the second cataract without further delay.

The risk of a cataract eyelens replacement is retina detachment. You only have two eyes, so they fix the first one, see if your vision in that one is good after completely healing, then they will maybe attempt the second one.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
11:11 AM Liked: 585
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02-19-2013 | Posts: 20,239
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All true Gentlemen. There are other risks besides retina detachment. I had a detached retina and that was the direct cause of the rapid deteriorationof the catarac in that eye. A very predictable result or retina attachment surgery. Another risk is infection and high IOP. While a second replacement would be a good fix, the fact is a 2% chance of bad things happening including blindness.

Now. The case for off setting calibration fixes. my main concern here is where there is severe catarac yellowing of both eyes but still good non blurry vision. In such a situation where I believe a lot of older people have, the risks of catarac replacement with an IO lens would not be justified. It is there where an offset fix during calibration would be a nuch better solution if we had the tests to easily measure the degreeof yellowing filtering and the data to know how much offset to crank in.

A simple. Yes your right would be appreciated. I simply can't see how anybody could disagree with this. Just for the viewer when watching alone.
gtgray's Avatar gtgray
12:27 PM Liked: 55
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02-19-2013 | Posts: 3,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

All true Gentlemen. There are other risks besides retina detachment. I had a detached retina and that was the direct cause of the rapid deteriorationof the catarac in that eye. A very predictable result or retina attachment surgery. Another risk is infection and high IOP. While a second replacement would be a good fix, the fact is a 2% chance of bad things happening including blindness.

Now. The case for off setting calibration fixes. my main concern here is where there is severe catarac yellowing of both eyes but still good non blurry vision. In such a situation where I believe a lot of older people have, the risks of catarac replacement with an IO lens would not be justified. It is there where an offset fix during calibration would be a nuch better solution if we had the tests to easily measure the degreeof yellowing filtering and the data to know how much offset to crank in.

A simple. Yes your right would be appreciated. I simply can't see how anybody could disagree with this.Just for the viewer when watching alone.

Interesting, my grandfather had both eyes done, he was in his mid 80s.. My mother and father had both eyes done, they were in their late 60s. My ex-wife had both eyes done - in her 40s. I had both eyes done in my ealy to mid-fifities. All of us were experiencing deteriorating vision. Only I pressured to have the second one done in part because of color mismatch. I have another grandmother who will be 98 in July. I don't know for certain if she had cataract surgery or not, but I assume so. In India this surgery is done thousands a time per day for one US dollar per eye, in a huge production environment. I wonder about the frequency of serious complication This single facility has done literally millions of lens implants in the last few years. I never was advised of possible complications.
Wouter73's Avatar Wouter73
12:34 PM Liked: 34
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The risks are very small. Still, not informing you is a bad thing in my view.

http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/cataract-complications.htm
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
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The material I have seen says the risk is about 2% of complications arising within a 6 month period after the procedure.

Now I am taking an analogy to the absurd but if flying has a 2% risk of some sort of crash, not all fatal, would you fly?
Wouter73's Avatar Wouter73
02:17 PM Liked: 34
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Well, i know getting on my motorbike I take a larger risk then when I get on a plane, so yes.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
02:23 PM Liked: 585
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My point was not the actual risk of flying, but if it had a 2% risk. If the risk of an asccident of riding your bike was higher than 2%, say aprobabilty of crashing once out of every fifty rides, would you ride anyway. Fortunately, the risks associated with either modes of transportation are way lower than 2%.
JimP
02:41 PM Liked: 199
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02-19-2013 | Posts: 15,494
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Mark,

If you're already almost blind in that eye, then there isn't much of a downside risk.

If however you can still see fairly good in bright light, I think I'd rather error on the side of caution and hold off doing it.

That may be the underlying reason these doctors want to wait until you're essentially blind in an eye before doing cateract surgery. Even if it falls into the 2%, you aren't really any worst off.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
04:24 PM Liked: 585
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Agree fully. The only present problem with that eye is the heavy yellow filtering. Also my health plan is Kaiser and I have to use their doctors and surgeons. My surgeon is really good and he is the head of opthomology for the Kaiser mid Atlantic region.

I have another eye surgeon. top notch who will do the surgery if I want. But I would have to pay for it and of course assume an otherwise needless risk.By doing what many calibrators and colorimetry professionals oppose, by cranking in some extra bludrive I have made things with bioth eyes wide open look the same ass to viewing a standard meeeting setr look to my new lens eye. i am happy and have done the correct thing despite many think it is wrong and sacreligeous. Give me a big amen brothers.
gtgray's Avatar gtgray
10:33 PM Liked: 55
post #78 of 83
02-19-2013 | Posts: 3,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

The risks are very small. Still, not informing you is a bad thing in my view.

http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/cataract-complications.htm

I agree the risks are low. Candidates should be informed. What is suprising is that strategies for dealing with the complications for the vast majority of complications are highly successful so if patients are screened properly and followed up on properly the risk of blindness in one eye would be acceptable for most. Clearly this choice is between a patient and their doctor but as the link idicates outcomes have improved over the years and the statistics provided cover a very long time and likely overstate the current risk and perhaps understate the effectivness of current opthamologcal interventions to resolve issues as they occur.

In general most cataract surgery is done on senior patients. Being in my early 50s I kind of flet like odd man outsitting in the waiting room. Iit was clear that most of the clients were well in to their 70s and beyond.I can hardly think of a more lucrative business than being a cataract surgeon in the US even at Medicare rates. My doctor was clearly making millions of dollars a year.His offices overflowed with patients.
wvolpatto's Avatar wvolpatto
06:39 PM Liked: 10
post #79 of 83
02-21-2013 | Posts: 11
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...

naturally speaking, the perception of a color in the human eye is:

1) unique for each human been
2) for the same human will change with age/physical condition/drugs assumption and whatnot.
3) the adaptation and memory in our brain will make the image right for a certain degree of "error" in our vision system (Human Vision Adaptation)
4) the metamerism used in a three color representation is conflicting with the spectral distribution of your natural filters in the eye, therefore to the same image calibration (measured) different technologies will be perceived different: from a laser projector all the way to a CRT or film projected with a Arc Lamp.

I think that the purpose of a calibration is to setup your viewing environment to represent what intended artistic representation of the reality thru images. hence a standard that "should" be followed
In other word, if is there a system capable of replicate exactly 100% a lighted real scene, the idea is that when you walk from the set to the displayed image there is no difference "to your eye" so you perceive the same reality.

-Walter
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
10:17 PM Liked: 585
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02-21-2013 | Posts: 20,239
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You might want to read the x-rite paper on color and calibration. The readings we get are a result of 3 factors multiplied together and one is how the defined standard viewer as recently modiified sees color.

If you are not that viewer and have color vision different from that viewer you simply will see the wrong colors.

The problem is getting the correct factors to change that multiplier so that one would see the correct colors. Moreover if the colorist doesn't have vision close to that of the standard defined viewer everything would be wrong to begin with. The whole theory of why most HT viewers want a calibration, if true, to see the colors as the artists intended, would not be realized..

Most could care less that all you really would get is seeing them or your display the same way you would see ithem in europe under sun lit conditions.

But the calibration professional should just say, your young and your eyes are probaby right in line with the standard defined viewer, and not breath a word that the colorist might have skewed color vision.

the more one learns the more one concludes that calibration depending on the viewer may not give you what you think you are getting a calibration for.

maybe when doing a calibration for an older person, there should be a disclosure and a sign off of that understanding before the customer goes forward and spend his money. Naw. Too many calibrators are suffering because consumers are buying good cheap meters and cheap but good programs and doing it themselves.

tomorrow I am going to do a little experiment. i suspect best Buy does more calibrations than any other entity and use equipment purchased from a company prominently posting here and trained by who? maybe ISF and some others here.

i am going tp play dumb. actually I don't have to play dumb. it sorta comes naturally andI am going going into their HT store and ask I have heard about their doing calibrations and I am going to ask why I should get one.

I wonder what the answer will be. Anyone want to take 100 to one against being able to see the colors the movie director intended, somrething like that. Oh maybe they will say to make my display the same as all other calibrated displays color wise and so I would see colors on the screen the same way I might see them outside under the same illuminator conditions. what do you guys think?
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
06:50 PM Liked: 585
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02-23-2013 | Posts: 20,239
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Thanks to Jim P who sent me about 10 different squares of Cokin fiilters to try. One of the Blue ones, A-021 comes close to matching the colors I see with my new lens eye viewing a by the book calibration. Its rather a heavy blue and i need to uise a ND filter on my good eye to balance the brightness. My catarcted eye already sees less brightness than my new unfiltered lens eye. hopefully a ND3 filter will do the trick. Off tp the internet to order a few squares of ND material.

Members here often go the extra mile in helping others and Jim really went the extra mile sending me all those filter samples.

I hope I can repay the favor someday.,
Kris Deering's Avatar Kris Deering
02:28 PM Liked: 397
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09-29-2013 | Posts: 7,235
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While I can certainly see your dilemma here Mark the idea that one should call into question how calibration done is pretty off base. While I absolutely agree that in this case you should adjust your settings to your liking (and obviously anyone has the right to do this) but calling into question the validity of the calibration method based on your eyesight is pretty far fetched. The next thing we'll talk about is how audio calibration should be completely called into question because your over 65 ears can't hear anything above 13 kHz therefore all music should be EQ'ed for your condition.

Honestly it sounds like you should be declared legally blind and hand over that 1000ES immediately. A projector like that shouldn't be in the hands of a blind old man. wink.gifbiggrin.gif
chouhuoguo's Avatar chouhuoguo
08:21 PM Liked: 10
post #83 of 83
10-03-2013 | Posts: 2
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You have been and will continue not to see things as you have caibrated for. that is little consulation to me.

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