If you are over 65 and have impaired color vision due to cataract yellowing you may want to calibrate to other than the Rec. 709 standard - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 20,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 587
OK. I have your attention. Let me explain

I am a senior citizen has many on AV Science forum are or are getting close.

Recently I had a catarac removed in one eye and a new clear lense inserted. This was done because my vision had substantially deteriorated in my right eye due to detahed retina surgery which unfortunately is usually followed with accelerated catarac deterioration or whatever. My other eye, my left eye, is fine, close to 20/20. BUT when looking through my new lens eye, the colors look entirely different. My other eye, the colors look like I am seeing everything through a yellow filter. Warmer, easier to see contrast detail, but things look say slightly beige. White is not white. It has a yellow minor colration. Colors look less luminous. The light through the right eye is brighter which makes sense because of the catarac in my left eye acting as a yellow filter,

Now I calibrate evrrything. Use a CMS and get things right on within small de results. So what. For years evidently, my eyes have in effect had yellow filters in them do to aging. i see how much error there was in my eyes now that one eye is no longer filtered. Huge amount of error. Who gives a flying whatever tre what that zillion dolar spectroradiometer reads. Its all about and only how one's eyes see the color. Screw the calibration, adjust things for your eyes. But how?

Well i am not presently a candidate for getting a lens in my left eye. But the colors are quite different, and when both eyes are open, I get a melding, closer to correect but still of course not there.


I decided to play around. I looked at white through my right eye, closed it, opened my left eye and added blue gain, took the blue gain slider on my1000ES from blue gain minus 26 to plus 8. The control ranges from minus 30 to plus 30. whites look close now. Of course they are now wrong in my right eye.Next round of experiments will be to look only with myright eye, then open my lleft to and try to match the white I now see by sliding the blue slider up but not as far

I think a better solution would be to wear an eyeglass for display viewing that had a blue corrective filter in it. Of couse how do I determine the value and then where could one get it. Googling discloses nothing on this subject

With a blue filter added to my already yellow filtering lefty eye, I expect considerable light would be absorbed and i might have to add a ND filter to my right eye to balance things.

Obviously for testing, I could look at a block color chart with my good eye identify which color my left eye sees whaite as. Then somehow figure out the value of a corrective filter and then be able to buy it


How many HT lovers out there calibrate and have no clue that they are looking through yellow filters. Your meters aren't and calibration, why bother. Do some research on how as eyes age they yellow. Your sets are calibrated buy you are seeing everything wrong because of your eyes.

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 10:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kelvin1965S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 3,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Well I can see that you have a point for your personal situation, but think of it this way: If you've calibrated your display correctly it is now displaying the correct colours, so for example a photo of a scene should look the same as the actual scene itself. That you see this scene with added yellow (depending which eye) still means that your display and the real image should look the same. If you calibrate your display so that it looks 'correct' for your yellow eye, then what will you do about the real world? wink.gif

FWIW I'm of the opinion that getting gamma correct makes more difference to the image than the colour temperature, since our eyes tend to compensate anyway, especially sat in the dark watching a projector. But poorly adjusted gamma can make the image look flat and have no shadow detail, which regardless of yellow tint, you should still be able to appreciate.

Anyway, glad your cataract operation went well, best of luck for the other eye when/if you get it done.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
Kelvin1965S is offline  
post #3 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 20,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 587
I am interested on who will take the time to respond.

My primary point is not so much me with one eye being yellow filtered and the other eye now being clear, the only two possible soloutions other than a second catarac operation ewhich they do not want to do without clouding or deteriorated vision, is to filter the eye with a blue filter or adjust as best as possible what my brain takes in with two eyes bumping up the blue somewhat to make both eyes see together what my right eye sees alone.

My point for evetybody is how about your eyes. Unless you are yong and say I am guessing pree 50 or so, your eyes are now yellow filters and you are not seeing colors correctly because of this. Calibration oif your dusplay to a specific standard does not mean that you will now see the colors the director or others in the chain intended. Hell your calibrator if he is a good one is probably an old fart who can't see colors correctly any more.But he calibrates with instrumentation, not his eyes and if you have clear eyes that is probably color testing and generation of an offset table. a good thing. But to my eyes now, and many of you, calibrsation does not correct any error caused by your eyes. What needs to be csalibrated is what you see through your eyes and we don't calibrate for that. I suspect it could be done with very very expensive eye.

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #4 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 11:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
Citation4444's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Georgia Mountains
Posts: 888
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 27
I think you will naturally adapt to the color change over time, just like you adapted to the change when your cataracts were developing. I went through cataract surgery a couple of years ago and after surgery the difference in colors, both in brightness and color, was immediately obvious. Whites were much brighter and just different than before surgery. However, over time I have adapted to the new vision and everything seems normal now. I researched this at the time, since I was doing a lot of calibrating, and determined I should do nothing except let my body adapt to the changes. This subject has been well documented and one of the best studies I've seen (in that it's easy to understand) is this one. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2633455/ Hope this helps.
Citation4444 is online now  
post #5 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 11:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Rolls-Royce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Victorville, CA
Posts: 2,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 View Post

I think you will naturally adapt to the color change over time, just like you adapted to the change when your cataracts were developing. I went through cataract surgery a couple of years ago and after surgery the difference in colors, both in brightness and color, was immediately obvious. Whites were much brighter and just different than before surgery. However, over time I have adapted to the new vision and everything seems normal now. I researched this at the time, since I was doing a lot of calibrating, and determined I should do nothing except let my body adapt to the changes. This subject has been well documented and one of the best studies I've seen (in that it's easy to understand) is this one. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2633455/ Hope this helps.

Totally agree. Like the OP, I also had right-eye-only cataract surgery (in August of 2009), and saw differences in colors between my eyes at first. But my brain adapted and I don't see the difference anymore. Nothing to sweat over.

...Royce...

"I never drink...wine."
Bela Lugosi, DRACULA, 1931
Rolls-Royce is offline  
post #6 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 20,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 587
No question your eyes adapt but they do not correct. You have been and will continue not to see things as you have caibrated for. that is little consulation to me.

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #7 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 01:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
Citation4444's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Georgia Mountains
Posts: 888
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

No question your eyes adapt but they do not correct. You have been and will continue not to see things as you have caibrated for. thatis little consulation to me.
You obviously didn't read the article I linked to, as your eyes do adapt and do correct, but not completely. That is, your perception of what you think d65 is versus what it really is changes drastically after the new lens in inserted. However, over time your perception adapts back towards true d65, but not completely. At least that's the way I understand it, and that's what I experienced.
Citation4444 is online now  
post #8 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 20,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 587
Yes. I read the article. I am saying two things here.

Let's suppose I am talking to old farts who eyes have yellowed by who have not yet had the pleasure of a cataract removal and insertion of a new lens. I was in that category until recently. I thought my color vision was fine. I calibrated my displays They met rec709. I didn't realize I was not seeing the colors correctly. I didn't realize white didn't look the way I saw them after calibration. Then bingo. I got a new lens and through that eye say colors correectly. Obviously viewing with two eyes, I see a combination. And according to the study my brain will mae what i see more towards the clear eye overr time but not completely. So it will be less wrong. Great. Wrong is wrong unless you are uder 3DE AS VIEWED BY YOUR EYES AND NOT SOME METER. If you are old and have two old yellow lebnses, calibration is a complete waste and it is still a waste if only one eye lens is replaced. you need to have both eyes done or you need to filter the undone eye if you want it right. The only reason one calibrates is that you WANT it right. You can live with it wrong.

And if you are an old fart with old eyes, it will be wrong even after calibration.

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #9 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 02:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,640
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

And if you are an old fart with old eyes, it will be wrong even after calibration.

Will it?

If it's accurately reproducing the spectrum, then your eyes get the same stimulus from D65.

Now you may forever perceive D65 as being a bit yellow. But that's D65 from a lighbulb, D65 from sitting in a movie theater, from watching your calibrated TV.

Your perception of D65 may not be consistent with what other people perceive.

That doesn't mean calibration won't make your perception of the TV consistent with other displays also calibrated to D65 or the experience of looking at that same object in similar lighting in the real world.


Calibration still works in giving you a consistent viewing experience, and it would be the same experience you'd get sitting in the colorist booth.

Your argument is similar to saying calibration won't make blind people see.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
post #10 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 20,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 587
Sotti. Your argument is specious. You are in essence saying that by calibrating your displays you wil guarantee approximately the same degree of error no matter which display you watch. Of course it won't be the colors you are intended to be seeing by the colorist. Whoppe. I would see it wrong if I watched it on his display versus mine. whats the point. I would perceive the colors not as they are intended for someone with non filtered yelllow eyes, The only way to make it right would be to blue filter the yellow filtered eye. And the problem with that is determining the corret filter and obtaining it. Whats the benefit in consistent wrong? But it would help by calibration industry and why should I expect anyone in the industry to acknowledge the correctness of my argument?

A simple, tough. I am sorry. We can't help you.

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #11 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 03:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,640
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Sotti. Your argument is specious. You are in essence saying that by calibrating your displays you wil guarantee approximately the same degree of error no matter which display you watch. Of course it won't be the colors you are intended to be seeing by the colorist. Whoppe. I would see it wrong if I watched it on his display versus mine. whats the point. I would perceive the colors not as they are intended for someone with non filtered yelllow eyes, The only way to make it right would be to blue filter the yellow filtered eye. And the problem with that is determining the corret filter and obtaining it. Whats the benefit in consistent wrong? But it would help by calibration industry and why should I expect anyone in the industry to acknowledge the correctness of my argument?

A simple, tough. I am sorry. We can't help you.

I'm saying it's not wrong.

Lets say the display once calibrated perfectly it replicates the spectrum produced by sunlight reflecting off a red apple.

Now you see that color as slightly orangish on the display.

But....

You also see it as slightly orangish in real life.

Because your eye issue effects not just your perception of the display, but everything. You have a different reality than the rest of us. That doesn't invalidate calibration. The calibration is still accurate for your reality. The red apple on the park bench and the red apple on your display are the same color for you, even if it isn't the red you remember from your childhood.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
post #12 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 04:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kelvin1965S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 3,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 48
How about going really deep?

How do we know if I see red the same way as someone else sees yellow? No one knows what it's like to see through someone else's eyes, so your red could my blue for example.eek.gif Of course since this is how we have known it all our life so we're used to it.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
Kelvin1965S is offline  
post #13 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 04:24 PM
Advanced Member
 
CalWldLif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: South Bay'Los Angeles California.
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

How about going really deep?

How do we know if I see red the same way as someone else sees yellow? No one knows what it's like to see through someone else's eyes, so your red could my blue for example.eek.gif Of course since this is how we have known it all our life so we're used to it.
really? :lol:
the process is done using Instraments and scientific definitions of light.
if it is good enough for the scientists, pondering the true nature of a tree is pointless.
.sotti made a good point.

Loving D65
CalWldLif is offline  
post #14 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 04:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
Dropkick Murphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 616
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

How about going really deep?

How do we know if I see red the same way as someone else sees yellow? No one knows what it's like to see through someone else's eyes, so your red could my blue for example.eek.gif Of course since this is how we have known it all our life so we're used to it.

You've just completely invalidated an entire industry. Everyone throw out your meters and go home. biggrin.gif

Dropkick Murphy is offline  
post #15 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 04:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
clrv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well Mark I was about to call you to order items to calibrate my system but I think you jut talked me out of it wink.gif
clrv is offline  
post #16 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 06:18 PM
Advanced Member
 
Srgtfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Laguna Niguel, Ca., USA
Posts: 611
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Hi Mark,

Have U thought about going monocular..with the "good" eye that is? Just do't get ur hearing checked or you'll be watching movies on an ipad.


It could be worse, depending on your "perspective." I am disabled because of an essentially unheard of complication of a fairly rare eye problem, causing loss of depth perception and micropsia in the "bad eye, for all peripheral images, while the ipsilateral, central vision is absent. Interesting thing is that I can get a 3D perspective, by canting my head to one side and looking at a 2D image. As regards ur and r hue perception ( I liked that one), this seems no different than having a perfectly, so to say, calibrated display and showing it to 10 persons, with nine of them saying,"needs more color and make it brighter." Most are accustomed to more blue and more color saturation, as we know, even with "young," perfect vision. Ur ocular acuity and visual perception, such as it is, at any given point, has a devolving, if U will, ocular acuity, "coloured," by Ur visual perceptive capabilities and experiences.

BTW, I have not gone monocular yet, either.

Thank you very much

Fury
Srgtfury is offline  
post #17 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 20,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I'm saying it's not wrong.

Lets say the display once calibrated perfectly it replicates the spectrum produced by sunlight reflecting off a red apple.

Now you see that color as slightly orangish on the display.

But....

You also see it as slightly orangish in real life.

Because your eye issue effects not just your perception of the display, but everything. You have a different reality than the rest of us. That doesn't invalidate calibration. The calibration is still accurate for your reality. The red apple on the park bench and the red apple on your display are the same color for you, even if it isn't the red you remember from your childhood.

I understand under the correct lighting for 6500K outside and with the limited spectrum of rec 709, I will see those colors just as incorrectly as I see them on the calibrated display. I want to see them as I would with two good eyes. Unless I filter the yellow eye, the colors I see will be wrong despite calibration of my display. Once wrong whats the point of the calibration? Not to replicate an error, but to eliminate them and it won't do that. Calibration is done with spectros and radios and not with ones eyes. You can put your meter behind your eye lenses. One need to figure outsome how what the correction lens needs to be. If both simply calibrate for aeyes are off the same, yellow, then you could put the correct yellow filter on the meter and calibrate that way with the filter doing the offsets.

All very difficult and really hasn't been done before according to color specialist opthomalogists I have consulted.

My point which I don't think anyone csan argue against, unless your eyes are clear, you won't see the colors correctly calibrated by standard procedures or not calibrating. Wrong is wrong>

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #18 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 20,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by clrv View Post

Well Mark I was about to call you to order items to calibrate my system but I think you jut talked me out of it wink.gif
That's fine. really. There are indeed scientific ways or measuring color. Even the most ignorant of calibrators knows that. But because a color meets the standard, identical, it does not mean all will see it the same. A color blind person won't see very much of the color. Most with good eyes will see it close to what it measures. But old farts with yellowing lenses, cataracts in their eyes, won't. Probably every one over 65 though I don't have data. Most catarac replacements are 65 and over.

I could give a flying wazoo about invalidating meters and an industry. For most it makes sense, but if you are going to wear filters built into your eyes, a calibration of your display will not make you see the colors as the director etc intended. That's a fact. So if you are old and haven't replaced both cataracts, no I would not bother calibrating your display for yourself. I am going to my display and try to crank in enough blue to make whites look like they do with my good eye when using both eyes. Crude. Unmeasured but it should reduce the error I am seeing with my dead on calibrated display.

this whole mess will go away within a year when I pester my Dr enough so that he gives me a new lens in my left eye. I am persistent and he will cave. I pity him. Then I will calibrate my display again.

This forum is to bounce ideas. I never realized how my color vision has changed over the years until I got a clear right eye. No one heer has invalidated my thesis one damn bit. I wish I was wrong, but I am not andif I cost a few calibrators etc a little money by saving an old fart from spending ,money to get an end result he won't get. .

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #19 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 07:03 PM
Advanced Member
 
clrv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well said Mark... I was kidding though ill call you tomorrow
clrv is offline  
post #20 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 08:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,640
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Unless I filter the yellow eye, the colors I see will be wrong despite calibration of my display. Once wrong whats the point of the calibration? Not to replicate an error, but to eliminate them and it won't do that

The point of calibration isn't to make the color correct for you, it's to make the color objectively the same as the reference standard.

You are confusing your perception of color with actual color accuracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post


My point which I don't think anyone csan argue against, unless your eyes are clear, you won't see the colors correctly calibrated by standard procedures or not calibrating. Wrong is wrong>

My point is those colors are correct.

Your eyes are wrong, but if you were born with those eyes, then calibration would only make the colors look more accurate, more like what you experience in the real world.

It's like you were being forced to view the world with rose-tinted sun glasses.

An uncalibrated display would still look wrong, not like a reference image to you.
A calibrated display would look correct, indistinguishable from the reference image, regardless of the state of your eyes.

That is calibration, the ability to make to things similar.

Your issue is entirely separate and apart from calibration. It was a physical handicap far more similar to deafness or blindness.

You are effectively arguing that increasing fidelity doesn't make a blind man see.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
post #21 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 20,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 587
The whole subject of color calibration starts with the CEI 1931 color chart. We all have seen it but do we really know what it is and how it was derived. We anally just fucus on the limited color spaces within that chart that are the holy grail of our efforts. Go back and read about the chart. Things pop up like it being based on a standard observer with a definition of same and varios arc. Everything is derived on what the group of observers standardaized see and then formulas are endlessly derived. Guess what. If you ain't a standard observer you are basically fornicated. Its just to the degree, My left eye is not like a standard observer, and I am fornicated big time. anyway the subject is complicated but go back and read the Wiki on the 1931 standard. Kinda skipped most of that in ISF training classes didn't we boys. And they gave you the chart to take home. What's it mean to you? Probably what colors the eye can see and where our two or three color triangles, such as rec 709, are located to base your nice graphs you show your customers as to how you fixed things. YOur customer probably couldn't tell the before or after differences unless he she really screwed things up. But its nice seeing all those nice even height bars, straight color temp lines, perfectly flat 2.2 gammas as if that is what gamma should be and then again there is no what gamma should be hell the customer if given an A/B choice would probaly prefer over saturation. And no customer could ever tell the difference between a de error of 2 and 0.2.

Now there is a reason to get it right. It was mastered that way and we can indeed duplicate it very closely. And we have sold the world on wanting that as if it were a holy grail. Fine and dandy. But when ones eyes are going to distort the colors, because of old age cataract yellowing, what's the point of calibrating?

Maybe it will make what the person sees more accurate. It won't be right but it might be better. but it might be worse too because as a group, calibrators are clueless as to how it should be calibrated to offset two aged eyes. That isn't taught. Just truck out the graphs and tell your customer see what I did for you although unfortunately your customer hasn't gotten you to make the colors right for his eyes. I am not blaming anyone but understand that you can't by using your test patterns and equipment make it right in those instances.

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #22 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 09:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,640
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

My left eye is not like a stand observer, and I am fornicated big time

Actually that's not true.

Your left eye may very well still behave in a similar manner to the standard observer. Just a standard observer with a big piece of yellow film between you and the colors.

A color matching function, which I'm intimately familiar with, as I gave a talk the SMTPE technical conference last november on the subject, deals with how your cones respond to stimulation. The cones in your eyes did not change, only the the stimulation they receive through your cornea (although technically, much like your ears, your eyes sensitivities change as you age, which is a well documented phenomena, see CIE-2006 color matching functions addendum to compensate for both age and sex).

Further still, I focused most of my responses on the spectral response. Given the same spectrum you are literally receiving exactly the same stimulation to your cones as the original color provided. It would be impossible for you to differentiate the two.

Imagine a world were all of use had the same yellow eyes you had. In that world we would still calibrate our displays to the same D65, since the D65 spectral signature is the most similar to sunlight. The reds, blues and greens used for as primaries for our tri-chromatic vision would be the same, since this disability did not effect the sensitivity of the short, medium and long wave cones of our eyes. Our sensitivity to the different frequencies of light would remain the same. The colors we'd view on monitors, print and in the real world would all look the same and be consistent as long as the colors were accurately calibrated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

calibrators are clueless as to how it should be calibrated to offset two aged eyes. That isn't taught.
Aging eyes have different sensitivities on a cone by cone basis, this is why we started to include color matching functions into CalMAN. Using a spectrometer you can select alternate color matching functions that are being researched as alternatives to the 1931 standard. We don't currently provide for the age modifications to the 2006 CIE function, but we easily could add that.

Of course that is a different topic, than having an actual disability where you are no longer receiving untinted light. Your argument is more akin, to a "The More You Know" commercial urging elderly people to get their eyes checked out.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
post #23 of 83 Old 02-06-2013, 09:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,640
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Let's try this.

What color did a real world apple look like sitting on the counter in the kitchen before your surgery?

What color did an apple displayed on your calibrated TV look like before your surgery?

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
post #24 of 83 Old 02-07-2013, 01:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,578
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Personally, I don't see any difference between the op's predicament and someone with color-blindness. In either case, the fault is not with color rendition of the display, calibrated or not.
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #25 of 83 Old 02-07-2013, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 20,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 587
Very interesting Joel.



I need to read up on the Addendum.

Do you think many calibrators, hobbyists or pro, ubderstand any of what you said in your longer above post? particularly, do they understand or use the addendum? Its all kinda experimental as to alternatives? Maybe you should add an age function. None of this would show up in the charts and graphs the customers are given to prove how much the calibrator gas improved things and to convince the customer, silently, that what the calibrator has done is right even though the customer may silently or vocallt think it is not as good as before. Of course this is a different subject.


But I think calibration should include some consideration of the customer's eyes, how the customer perceives clors, and if possible the display adjusted to compensate.

I get the point that scientifically all displays should produce colors the same way to one set of eyes. If I look at a rec 709 apple on one display it should look the same on another and the same under d65 conditions outside. which are rather rare in real life.

But once again, if both my eyes had yellow filters, I would choose to have the display produce the apple so that I saw it as it should be rather than filtered.This could be done And it could be done for the one eye filtered also by adjusting the colors based on what the combined eyes see. This would be ground breaking and really add value to old farts and the quality of their lives. Maybe Spectracal could qualify for a humanatarian award. smile.gif

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #26 of 83 Old 02-07-2013, 06:10 AM
Advanced Member
 
Gregg Loewen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: New England
Posts: 775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 39
This argument is based on the unproven and potentially false assumption that the new lense is color neutral (and not having a blue bias).

The author is also totally dismissing the most important parts of calibration which are setting the dynamic range,gamma, and luminance of red.

President, Lion Audio Video Consultants Inc.
Lead THX Video Standards Instructor
Gregg Loewen is online now  
post #27 of 83 Old 02-07-2013, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 20,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 587
Gregg Hi.

I think the new lense from the data I have is color neutral. Some opthamalogists would argue there is a need for artificial lenses to blue filter to ptotect agaimst long term damage but the data is inconclusive..

I am not not dismissing gamma or dynamic range. Though I would argue that gamma is simply a preference of the observer. there is no standard. using 2.2 as a standard is simply BS.

Red luminance is important and not meaningless and I am not dismissing it.

Obviously there are elements of projector set up and calibration that even a color blind person could benefit from. Setting brightness, contrast etc. However, one does not need a calibrator to do this or any instrumentation. Just a test disc .

Gamma needs instrumentation but there is no standard and please don't argue that the correct gamma is the camera gamma. Gamma depends on room and personal preference although I suppose a calibrator could ensure that the customers preferences do not crush or clips blacks and whites respectively.


So I guess I concur but for the most part that a color blind person needs a color calibration. Set the gray scale high. It will be more accurate to a guy with two yellow cataracts.

But CMS stuff? Why?

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #28 of 83 Old 02-07-2013, 12:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,457
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 228
You should, indeed, be able to have an eyeglass lens tinted blue to the degree you need... they do variable tinting all the time from very light blues, yellows, pinks, and who knows what other colors some fashionista might want during any given fashion cycle...

A well-equipped optometric center should have selections of lenses in each tinting color that they offer and the tints will range from the lightest amount of tint they can add to the most/darkest amount. You could simply take those samples and use 1-eye at a time to make your left and right eyes match when you are looking at something under relatively "normal" (close to d65) lighting. Once they know the amount of tint to use, they can order the lens for the left eye tinted that way and you could have either clear or very very very light neutral tint for the right lens. You may have to call a few different places (or possibly you eye doctor can recommend a place with such capabilities).

I'm old enough to be able to receive Social Security if I wish (kind of a waste to not be taking it as soon as possible, who knows if it will even exist in 2 or 5 or 10 years?). My color perception is (according to my $14,000 meter) as good as it has been going back 30 or even 40 years. I worked on imaging systems for 34 years, every one of them relying on some sort of calibration, mostly matching an input to an output, with a video display in the middle that also had to match. So I've been constantly "tested" over the decades at work and since then with my own meter and calibration activities. I'm quite sure I'm not seeing things differently than I did in my 20s... well, the lenses ARE harder and I do need reading glasses (not for a computer screen though... that seems to be the distance the hardened lenses are frozen at! LOL! I have bifocals for driving that have my distance correction applied to the large portion of the lens and the small lower portion is setup with no correction so I can read the instruments easily). I'm hoping I manage to avoid the cataract thing as my blue eyes have always been very sun-sensitive (headaches if I get too much direct sun) and I've worn the darkest sunglasses I can find whenever I'm outside for my entire life. No evidence of cataracts or other issues yet.

As a side note... when I lived in Rochester, NY in the 1990s through 2006, my optometrist was an older guy who had been practicing in Rochester all of his adult life. He understood every cocakamamie request I made (including the bifocals with distance correction above and no correction below) because he would get oddball requests from Kodak employees all the time. So when I asked him for a prescription for single vision lenses corrected to optimize my vision for viewing movies in a movie theater with the screen being 25-50 feet away, he didn't blow it off, he just made a few adjustments to the machine and we went through the better/worse thing several times and in a few minutes I had a prescription for lenses that were ideal for movie viewing in a theater with anti-glare and a high-transmissivity lens. When he didn't balk at that, I asked for another prescription optimized for 7-12 feet viewing (for flat panel TVs and projectors) and had that within another 5 minutes or so. When I've made similar requests of optometrists in Colorado or California they look at me like I have all the Stooges heads on me. When they ask me why I'd want such a thing, my answer has been... because I understand depth of field and there's no such thing as 1 prescription being adequate to optimize vision over the entire range of viewing distances I use every day. They try to cop out by saying that 1 prescription is "good enough" and I always have to say "not for me". I have 20/15 vision when it is properly corrected and I want to take advantage of it as long as I can. I've had to pass on a number of optometrists who wouldn't work with me on getting the prescriptions I wanted in order to find one who was willing to do it (costs extra of course, but it's not that bad, adds maybe 15-20 minutes to an appointment). Anyway... the point is, there are a lot of seniors out there with no vision problems other than hard lenses that won't focus as needed for near/far objects. I'm hoping that if issues do develop, it doesn't happen until I'm into my late 70s at least.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX -- ISF -- HAA
Doug Blackburn is offline  
post #29 of 83 Old 02-07-2013, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
mark haflich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: brookeville, maryland, usa
Posts: 20,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 587
Thanks Doug. Long time no see, pardon the pun. But I do read your reviews. We go back a long long way.

I called a few optical centers and indeed they have a few glasses lenses tinted blue that I can try and then they would make up a pair of non corrective glases with one lens clear and the other with the blue tinted lens I select. all for about $300 with a new frame. I will go tomorrow and report back on whether I can find a lens that makes white about the same in my bad eye as it is in my good. Be interesting. thanks to all for participating in this thread.

Mark Haflich
markhaflich@yahoo.com
call me at: 240 876 2536
mark haflich is online now  
post #30 of 83 Old 02-07-2013, 02:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
airscapes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,733
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Thanks Doug. Look time no see, pardon the pun. But I do read your reviews. We go back a long long way.

I called a few optical centers and indeed they have a few glasses lenses tinted blue that I can try and then they would make up a pair of non corrective glases with one lens clear and the other with the blue tinted lens I select. all for about $300 with a new frame. I will go tomorrow and report back on whether I can find a lens that makes white about the same in my bad eye as it is in my good. Be interesting. thanks to all for participating in this thread.

Look for and independent Guild Opticians http://www.oaa.org/index.php as these are the folks that are trained the best and know what they are doing. Like a few that Doug mentioned, I use a mom and pop shop that my parents used before I was born.. which means they have been in business for well over 50 years. You pay a bit more up front but you never pay another dime to have anything fixed or adjusted.. check your state at the site I posted and see if there is someone near you before buying anything.
airscapes is online now  
Reply Display Calibration



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off