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post #1 of 35 Old 02-11-2013, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been watching a lot of movies with the lights out recently and would like to add some bias lighting behind my tv. I see that the ideal-lume gets good reviews and looks like a nice option but i had a couple questions i was hoping someone could help me with. i see that almost everyone recommends that the wall behind the tv be white or near-white, but my wall is what i would describe as a "pastel blue". it is not dark, but there is a blue tint to it. overall it is a light color though. would this color prevent me from being able tot use the ideal-lume, would it throw off my colors?

also, i have a 61" samsung dlp that this would go on. from what i have read the ideal-lume standard (1 bulb) would be sufficient for this tv, was just hoping maybe someone had used on on a comparable size dlp tv and could give some feedback.

thanks for any help, i appreciate it.
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post #2 of 35 Old 02-11-2013, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post

I have been watching a lot of movies with the lights out recently and would like to add some biased lighting behind my tv. I see that the ideal-lume gets good reviews and looks like a nice option but i had a couple questions i was hoping someone could help me with. i see that almost everyone recommends that the wall behind the tv be white or near-white, but my wall is what i would describe as a "pastel blue". it is not dark, but there is a blue tint to it. overall it is a light color though. would this color prevent me from being able tot use the ideal-lume, would it throw off my colors?

also, i have a 61" samsung dlp that this would go on. from what i have read the ideal-lume standard (1 bulb) would be sufficient for this tv, was just hoping maybe someone had used on on a comparable size dlp tv and could give some feedback.

thanks for any help, i appreciate it.

ideally you want a neutral color to the wall behind/near/around the display like light grays or whites... but bias lighting has many other benefits that can be achieved even if the surrounding walls are not perfectly neutral

"What are the proven benefits of correctly implemented bias lighting?

1. Reduces or eliminates eye strain and viewing fatigue in dark viewing conditions.
2. Eliminates image contamination due to reflections, haze and glare on the screen from conventional room lighting.
3. Enhances perceived black levels, contrast ratio, and picture detail by enabling dark adapted viewing.

4. Preserves correct color perception of the video image by the viewer.
5. Prolongs monitor phosphor life by enabling dark room viewing and lowering of screen brightness requirements (phosphors are used in CRTs, plasmas, and LCDs with CCF or white LED back lighting).
6. Provides a low level of illumination in the room for movement and peripheral activities."


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post #3 of 35 Old 02-12-2013, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the reply PlasmaPZ80U. i think i'll give it a try
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post #4 of 35 Old 02-12-2013, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post

I have been watching a lot of movies with the lights out recently and would like to add some biased lighting behind my tv. I see that the ideal-lume gets good reviews and looks like a nice option but i had a couple questions i was hoping someone could help me with. i see that almost everyone recommends that the wall behind the tv be white or near-white, but my wall is what i would describe as a "pastel blue". it is not dark, but there is a blue tint to it. overall it is a light color though. would this color prevent me from being able tot use the ideal-lume, would it throw off my colors?

also, i have a 61" samsung dlp that this would go on. from what i have read the ideal-lume standard (1 bulb) would be sufficient for this tv, was just hoping maybe someone had used on on a comparable size dlp tv and could give some feedback.

thanks for any help, i appreciate it.
Any technically neutral wall color from a medium/dark gray up to white will work for a video display surround. The lighter shades will help with black level and contrast perception when viewing the TV while the room is fully lit. Just the wall behind the TV is the minimum recommendation for neutral color. The principle at play here is the fact that any conflicting color within the observer's field of view, while watching the screen, will distort color perception. More vivid or saturated colors will have greater effect, less colorful surrounding surfaces will have lesser effect. The only way to insure the viewer will perceive the colors correctly in an image is to provide a neutral surround, with ambient lighting as near to the D65 white point of video as possible.

A colored surround actually subtracts the same color from what our eyes observe in the screen image. This perceptual phenomenon occurs in the brain and is inescapable, although subtle in cases like yours with a light pastel wall color. A marvelous graphical demonstration of this phenomenon can be experienced at this link: http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/OpticalIllusions/illusions.htm . Go down to the fifth section of illusions, titled: 'Colour perception.' Use the slider included with each demonstration to adjust the mask opacity of the color surrounds. You will see that even very slight coloration in the surround affects the perceived color of the object of focus.

When the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) published their seminal work on best practices for designing video viewing environments, very little discussion dealt with viewer comfort (SMPTE RP166-1995). The dominant focus in the document dealt with preserving correct color perception. This focus may simply be by reason of the paper's subject dealing with color video, rather than monochrome video. Nevertheless, this area of the forum discusses display calibration. It's a simple scientific reality that a "perfectly" calibrated video display cannot be perceived as having accurate color if there is a conflicting colored surround within the observer's field of view. A spectral analysis instrument cannot measure what occurs in the visual cortex of the brain. Therefore, the simplest way to ensure image fidelity is to provide a calibrated display and a neutral surround in the viewing environment.

A single Ideal-Lume Standard should provide more than enough illumination for your size of TV and your light colored wall. We have had users report to us that the single light was sufficient for their 73" RPTV and a white wall. You're certainly welcomed to call our office regarding questions of this kind. Unlike most consumer electronics manufacturers, we are a tiny company that responds to customer inquiries well. In most cases you will likely end up speaking directly to me.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #5 of 35 Old 02-12-2013, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you very much for the reply. I will be placing my order later this evening, I'll be sure to contact you if i have any questions. smile.gif
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post #6 of 35 Old 02-12-2013, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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just placed an order for the standard model. thanks again for you help
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post #7 of 35 Old 02-21-2013, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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my ideal-lume arrived 2 days ago and i installed it that night. i turned off the lights, put in a blu-ray, adjusted the ideal-lume output and sat back. what a difference! the light blue color of my wall is not an issue at all, and it made watching the movie so much better! in fact, now when i turn it off the tv doesn't look nearly as good, so i have been leaving it on every time the tv is on. i hooked it up to a RF controlled outlet so i can turn it on/off with a remote. including an extra bulb was a very nice addition. if anyone is on teh fence about getting some bias lighting, go for it, it make a huge difference.
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post #8 of 35 Old 02-21-2013, 11:01 AM
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To hijack this thread a little bit, is it possible to measure the light behind the tv using a spectro (xrite 2), and should it then measure the same white as is needed in tv calibration?
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post #9 of 35 Old 02-22-2013, 12:00 PM
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There are meters that could measure the illuminated surround area, but they would tend to have a fairly small angle of view and be able to read reflected light (from the wall) as well as directly generated like (from the TV panel) in order to successfully measure the lighted surround area. I don't know the properties of the particular meter you asked about... but if it has a large angle of view, I don't think it would work unless it was VERY close to the wall you are trying to measure which could create a shadow problem depending on how things are organized... and if that meter cannot be used as a reflectance meter (you need a reflectance meter when measuring images from projection screens, for example), then you'd also be out of luck.

But the general answer is yes, you would want the illuminated surface around the TV to measure as close to the d65 standard as possible. If the paint is neutral gray and the light source is very close to d65, you'll measure something close to d65. If the wall is yellow and the light source is blue, you might eventually be able to tweak the paint color over many attempts to get a d65 result from wall and light colors that would be terrible choices by themselves... but what's the point really? Just use neutral gray paint and a known d65 light source.

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post #10 of 35 Old 02-22-2013, 04:41 PM
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If you have a big enough deviation from D65 coming from the wall, then you might be able to find a suitable theatrical gel to get things closer to target.

My tube measured well (i1 Display Pro), but the wall was overly red and it was very obvious to my eye. I calculated that a CT 1/8 Blue gel would be the best commercially available filter that could tame the red but still allow sufficient light output (and this part is important because dimming the light too much defeats one of bias lighting's most important functions).
Very happy with the result and I cannot tell that there is any obvious error without instrumentation.
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post #11 of 35 Old 05-23-2013, 05:51 PM
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I've been looking for an existing thread where I can say "Thank You" to CinemaQuest for my Ideal-Lume lamp and their excellent customer service.

Some threads are 7 years old, so I picked this one.

Alan at Cinemaquest has been very friendly and super responsive to my questions. The product was shipped to me the same afternoon as ordered.

Some oddball stuff: My panel is 38" out from the wall due to some room oddness. The standard Ideal-Lume lamp was more than powerful enough for this on my 65PS64 due to distance to wall. In fact, to reduce light output to where I wanted it, I first tried a strip of electrical tape in addition to the supplied 1/2 black shade and that worked fine. However, it was my impression that this was further insulating the plastic tube shade/baffle and maybe accumulating too much heat, so I switched to aluminum Nashua duct tape being careful to keep the ends of the obviously conductive tape away from the electrical terminals. IOW, I still used electrical tape on the last inch at each end.

I also totally blocked the last 2" at each end of the tube to reduce the width of the "halo" around my panel - again, due to my panel's unusual distance to wall. This worked fine and easily done.

To be clear, none of this is a criticism of the product. My panel is considerably farther away from the wall than usual, so I knew some adjustments would have to be made.

I wanted a quick way to correct the wall color since it was kind of marbled brown, so I hung some wide neutral grey curtains and while not a perfect solution, it was easy and helped quite a bit.

Shameless product/vendor plug:

Anyway, I wanted to say sincere THANKS to Alan and Cinemaquest for shipping super fast and for an excellent (IMHO) and affordable product. Also, CQ's contribution in their info in the product site and in this website helped me to understand some things.

Alan asked where I'd heard about his products and I said AVS Forum, of course.

I personally believe the bias lighting made a significant improvement in my home theater.
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post #12 of 35 Old 05-24-2013, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree it is a great product and a great company. I have had mine for about 3 months now and it has literally changed the way i watch tv/movies, i would never be without this again.
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post #13 of 35 Old 10-31-2013, 09:10 PM
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I know this is an old thread but I was wondering if the ideal-lume would work in my environment. I have a 65" Panasonic tc-65S60 and my walls are brown. A medium brown. Would I get any benefits from the ideal-lume? Would one be enough or should I get two? Tv is mounted on a 3-in-1 Tv stand, not wall mounted. Reason I want one is because I start to get fatigued watching tv in the dark, and I don't like to watch movies with the lights on.
Thanks
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post #14 of 35 Old 10-31-2013, 09:14 PM
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Greetings

It will reduce eye fatigue ... and if the blacks on the tV weren't black enough, it will make them appear even blacker still. Now if you already think the blacks look black, then it won't improve them at all.

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post #15 of 35 Old 10-31-2013, 09:16 PM
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Greetings

It will reduce eye fatigue ... and if the blacks on the tV weren't black enough, it will make them appear even blacker still. Now if you already think the blacks look black, then it won't improve them at all.

Regards

Thanks for the reply. Being how mine is not wall mounted should i get the standard or the panel light?
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post #16 of 35 Old 11-01-2013, 06:47 AM
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Greetings

I use one too and my set is table mounted in the corner. The "$60 " light is strung up on the back of the TV via plastic ties ... (Alan at cinemaquest gives you the ties with the lamp) ... you use the many airholes on the back of the TV to do this.

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post #17 of 35 Old 11-01-2013, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by str8desifer View Post

I know this is an old thread but I was wondering if the ideal-lume would work in my environment. I have a 65" Panasonic tc-65S60 and my walls are brown. A medium brown. Would I get any benefits from the ideal-lume? Would one be enough or should I get two? Tv is mounted on a 3-in-1 Tv stand, not wall mounted. Reason I want one is because I start to get fatigued watching tv in the dark, and I don't like to watch movies with the lights on.
Thanks
The reason why bias lighting and viewing environment topics are located in this calibration section of the forum is because viewing conditions in the room affect picture quality and display system performance. Screen reflections, haze, glare, viewing fatigue, and eye strain tend to be the most obvious consequences to the majority of viewers who don't have their display system set up correctly. Less intuitive consequences to the viewing experience in a poorly implemented system include diminished contrast, desaturated colors, and skewed color perception. So much attention in consumer video is focused on the electronics devices, connectivity, and programs, that room conditions and viewer perception are rarely understood completely, if at all.

Having the wrong wall color behind the display primarily affects the viewer's color perception. It can also affect perceived contrast, depending on how light or dark the color is. In your case, using the right color of bias lighting will still be better than conventional residential lighting. Brown is essentially desaturated orange. Conventional lighting will make the wall color appear even more orange. Having a non-neutral wall will subtract the color used from your perception of the image on the screen. Taking orange slightly out of the picture will also slightly increase the perception of greenish cyan. Calibration instruments cannot measure perceived color shift caused by improper surround conditions. This effect will be subtle, but inescapable nonetheless. The simplest way to prevent this is to not only have the right color of ambient lighting, but surround the screen with technically neutral colors (gray to white).

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #18 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 07:32 AM
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I'm in the process of wall mounting a Panasonic 60" Plasma and preparing to order the Ideal-Lume Panelight which is how I ran across this thread. I recently finished repainting the walls and unfortunately the color didn't occur to me, but I'm wondering if there will be much of an affect. The wall is a medium shade of gray/blue. Although it's looks more blue than gray the color is very subdued. Plus the paint was a matte finish which has the lowest sheen possible... just a hair above flat. Another thing I'm curious about is the display because it has a 2" black bezel around the screen and wondered if this might improve the situation.

Great thread and proud to keep it alive. cool.gif
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post #19 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 08:18 AM
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I'm in the process of wall mounting a Panasonic 60" Plasma and preparing to order the Ideal-Lume Panelight which is how I ran across this thread. I recently finished repainting the walls and unfortunately the color didn't occur to me, but I'm wondering if there will be much of an affect. The wall is a medium shade of gray/blue. Although it's looks more blue than gray the color is very subdued. Plus the paint was a matte finish which has the lowest sheen possible... just a hair above flat. Another thing I'm curious about is the display because it has a 2" black bezel around the screen and wondered if this might improve the situation.

Great thread and proud to keep it alive. cool.gif
All you have to do is repaint the wall behind the TV, not the whole room. The important part is that which resides within your field of view while viewing the display screen. What color you choose will affect your perception in every circumstance except total darkness. However, most folks experience some degree of eye strain and/or viewing fatigue without a little biasing illumination in the room.

The color you have now could be worse, of course. If you go to this link: http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/OpticalIllusions/colourPerception/colourPerception.html , you can see a graphic example of how this works. Click on the "illusion 1" button at the bottom of the page. Then use the "mask opacity" slider at the bottom to vary the color saturation in the demonstration. You will then see that even slight coloration surrounding the central item of focus will affect your perception of its color. The "illusion 3" button is also a pretty vivid example.

Absolutely flat paint is always preferred. Even the slightest bit of sheen can cause hot spotting from a light source near the wall. It is better to have a more even distribution of the illumination, rather than spots of more intense light. Fabric is even better at diffusing the illumination.

The 2" bezel around the screen is of minimal concern. If you find that it is too glossy, and causes distracting reflections in higher ambient room lighting, Duvetyne tape is a good remedy.
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post #20 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 09:45 AM
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I appreciate the information George but I guess I was hoping for some better news because that one wall is 25' long and covers two rooms which will create other problems. I did take a look at the optical illusions earlier today. It was one of the things that prompted my post, so I know exactly what you're referring to. I'll think about this more since at this point it will take the same amount of work if I do it this week or a month from now.

A couple items...

With my present situation, would bias lighting make things worse considering it would make the wall more noticeable in the immediate area around the display?

Not sure if this is a reasonable question but considering I sit 9' from the display, if I found a way to change the portion of the wall directly behind the display, any idea how far it would need to extend beyond the edges of the display to be effective?

Thanks for the help.
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post #21 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

I appreciate the information George but I guess I was hoping for some better news because that one wall is 25' long and covers two rooms which will create other problems. I did take a look at the optical illusions earlier today. It was one of the things that prompted my post, so I know exactly what you're referring to. I'll think about this more since at this point it will take the same amount of work if I do it this week or a month from now.

A couple items...

With my present situation, would bias lighting make things worse considering it would make the wall more noticeable in the immediate area around the display?

Not sure if this is a reasonable question but considering I sit 9' from the display, if I found a way to change the portion of the wall directly behind the display, any idea how far it would need to extend beyond the edges of the display to be effective?

Thanks for the help.
Hope doesn't work well in imaging science. If you want to design your video system for the best viewing experience, there's no better news than to learn how to do it correctly. You could also provide a neutral colored background near your TV by mounting fabric covered acoustic absorber panels on the wall behind. There are also some interesting looking acoustic foam squares for this. This type of remedy could also improve the room acoustics if done intelligently.

Bias lighting will not make your overall viewing experience worse in the room as it is. The neutral color coverage of the wall around the edges of the TV needs to be far enough out to fill the majority of your field of view while seated in your primary viewing location.

It's helpful to remember that the ideal design is not always do-able. Understanding what the target is, at least helps making decisions that will get you closer to the ideal. There are few absolutes in life. Most system design is a balance of many factors that require some kind of sliding scale of compromise from the ideal. The law of gravity is absolute, unless balanced against other laws of physics such as in aerodynamics or hot air ballooning. Even then, if gravity wasn't there to hold the atmosphere in place, planes couldn't fly, and hot air balloons wouldn't float. There are often work-arounds to get to our goals in a variety of ways.

Understanding the principles of imaging science and human visual perception is a hurdle most folks never even get to. Most video consumers just guess, or make design decisions based on intuition, or work from manufacturer marketing hyperbole, or from something their buddy told them, or a picture they saw in a magazine.
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post #22 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 02:26 PM
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I would suggest painting the wall behind the TV for at least 11 feet (assuming a 9-foot viewing angle) and floor-to-ceiling (assuming 8 or 9 foot ceiling height). If you use "Frog Tape" along the edges of the painted area, you will get an extraordinarily clean line at the edge of the painted area, even if there's a texture on the wall.

Since gray is a neutral color, it goes with EVERYTHING so there's really no "decorator" downside. You can even dress the edge up with moulding painted to match your existing baseboard moulding. That would separate the color on the rest of the wall from the part of the wall behind the TV.

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post #23 of 35 Old 11-11-2013, 04:46 PM
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Thanks both of you for your help and I will definitely keep everything in mind. In the meantime I'm going to mount the display on the wall as is, primarily because it's the same display on the same wall as before, so the only difference will be the color of the wall. I'll recognize any change in display colors while watching material I'm familiar with and know why. I want to see for myself what I think before I make any more changes.

Or I could just repaint the wall to something like this eek.gif

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post #24 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 10:46 AM
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.....I'll recognize any change in display colors while watching material I'm familiar with and know why. I want to see for myself what I think before I make any more changes....
You probably won't recognize any change. The difference will likely be too subtle without an A/B, side by side caparison. In addition to that, visual memory is notoriously fickle. Just ask any experienced trial attorney how reliable eye witness reports are to a crime, traffic accident, or event.
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post #25 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 11:47 AM
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Greetings

It will reduce eye fatigue ... and if the blacks on the tV weren't black enough, it will make them appear even blacker still. Now if you already think the blacks look black, then it won't improve them at all.

Regards

Really, hmm… I would have thought it would have made it even deeper. My blacks look lovely and rich in a fairly low lit room but I was hoping to enhance it further.



Anyone know what these are like?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Control-Kitchens-Aquariums-Christmas-Halloween/dp/B00EZBNKWA/

I've ordered a set to see.



Warm white seems far too orange.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Control-Kitchens-Aquariums-Christmas-Halloween/dp/B00ES1TM38/
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post #26 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

It will reduce eye fatigue ... and if the blacks on the tV weren't black enough, it will make them appear even blacker still. [U]Now if you already think the blacks look black, then it won't improve them at all.
[/U]
Regards

Really, hmm… I would have thought it would have made it even deeper. My blacks look lovely and rich in a fairly low lit room but I was hoping to enhance it further.



Anyone know what these are like?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Control-Kitchens-Aquariums-Christmas-Halloween/dp/B00EZBNKWA/

I've ordered a set to see.



Warm white seems far too orange.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Control-Kitchens-Aquariums-Christmas-Halloween/dp/B00ES1TM38/
I don't agree with Michael's statement. It's a bit too general and presumptuous.


If they don't specify what the color temperature is of their "cool white" option, it is probably far too blue. That has been the rule for all the "white" LEDs I've tested over several years, even for ones claiming to be 6500K. There has only been one exception but the maker told me the color rendering index (CRI) was only about 78. A CRI of 90 minimum is recommended for color analysis environments.
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post #27 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 12:29 PM
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Damn, maybe I should have went with the warm white. That looks not bad at all.

dscf3806.jpg?fit=1600%2C1600
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post #28 of 35 Old 11-12-2013, 02:08 PM
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Damn, maybe I should have went with the warm white. That looks not bad at all.

dscf3806.jpg?fit=1600%2C1600
Very funny.
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post #29 of 35 Old 11-13-2013, 12:06 PM
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On the Cinema Quest image page, there's a picture showing the back of a display, and what looks to be a section of long white shag carpet fastened to the wall behind the display. Any idea what that carpet is for?
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post #30 of 35 Old 11-13-2013, 12:19 PM
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GeorgeAB

On the Cinema Quest image page, there's a picture showing the back of a display, and what looks to be a section of long white shag carpet fastened to the wall behind the display. Any idea what that carpet is for?
I'm not sure I remember precisely what the owner of that system said. I did ask him about that and the metal grill around the center channel speaker. It may have been to damp the fan noise from his plasma. That was many years ago.
http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/img/cqKiller2PanelightInstall.jpg
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