Is D65 neutral gray or just a tinge blue - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 66 Old 02-20-2013, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Interested in finding out if D65 is a neutral gray with no hint of any off color or if it's just very slightly blue.

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post #2 of 66 Old 02-20-2013, 12:49 PM
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Greetings

tinge blue.

equal energy point is 0.333, 0.333. Closer to 5400K

Now of course there is no white in nature ... white is simply what we define it to be.

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post #3 of 66 Old 02-20-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Interested in finding out if D65 is a neutral gray with no hint of any off color or if it's just very slightly blue.

No such thing.


Neutral gray means that it reflects light evenly. All light has color.

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post #4 of 66 Old 02-20-2013, 02:52 PM
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You might as well start at the beginning of calibration class and tell them what D65 means as well.Joel.

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post #5 of 66 Old 02-21-2013, 11:07 AM
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CIE Standard Illuminant D65 (sometimes written D65[1][2]) is a commonly-used standard illuminant defined by the International Commission on Illumination (CIE).[3] It is part of the D series of illuminants that try to portray standard illumination conditions at open-air in different parts of the world.
D65 corresponds roughly to a midday sun in Western Europe / Northern Europe, hence it is also called a daylight illuminant. As any standard illuminant is represented as a table of averaged spectrophotometric data, any light source which statistically has the same relative spectral power distribution (SPD) can be considered a D65 light source. There are no actual D65 light sources, only simulators. The quality of a simulator can be assessed with the CIE Metamerism Index.[4][5]


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post #6 of 66 Old 02-23-2013, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

CIE Standard Illuminant D65 (sometimes written D65[1][2]) is a commonly-used standard illuminant defined by the International Commission on Illumination (CIE).[3] It is part of the D series of illuminants that try to portray standard illumination conditions at open-air in different parts of the world.
D65 corresponds roughly to a midday sun in Western Europe / Northern Europe, hence it is also called a daylight illuminant. As any standard illuminant is represented as a table of averaged spectrophotometric data, any light source which statistically has the same relative spectral power distribution (SPD) can be considered a D65 light source. There are no actual D65 light sources, only simulators. The quality of a simulator can be assessed with the CIE Metamerism Index.[4][5]
This information is from the CIE's work to quantify and define a standard for daylight simulation when judging colored surfaces. They published their findings in CIE 51.2-1999, titled: 'A Method For Assessing The Quality Of Daylight Simulators For Colorimetry.' There may have been a revision since that date. The context of this thread is more specifically in reference to video applications. In video, D65 is a specific location in color space with tighter tolerances for white balance (loosely referred to as color temperature) than tolerances for surface colorimetry.

The CIE specifications for D65 daylight simulation allow for white point tolerances within a broad radius (CIE 51.2-1999, pt. I, sec. 3.3, Figure 1). Those tolerances encompass D55 and D75. Much more attention is devoted to spectral power distribution (as it relates to metameric spectral reflection radiance factor) in the above document than specific white point. No one who is familiar with video white balance would want to settle for a gray scale that deviated between D55 (5500K+) and D75 (7500K+) when calibrating a video display. There is a clear difference in how the term "CIE D65" should be understood and applied between video performance versus judging surface colors.

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post #7 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Interested in finding out if D65 is a neutral gray with no hint of any off color or if it's just very slightly blue.

My first question will be:

"off color respect what?"
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post #8 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Interested in finding out if D65 is a neutral gray with no hint of any off color or if it's just very slightly blue.

My first question will be:

"off color respect what?"
If you read what was written, and assume he meant what he said, he said,"blue."
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post #9 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 11:14 AM
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The bloody issue is how one sees it when it, the display, has been calibrated correctly. Depending on your eyes you could see it being other than gray but display wise it isn't tinged. Only your eyes are screwed up and you perceive it as tinged blue. You will find this forum very sympathetic to this issue but they will claim there is nothing they should do or in good conscience should do. My solution for personal viewing is to just click down the b gain until the grayscale looks gray to you. The only thing in the end that counts is how the colors look to you and not the meter. If its wrong, its wrong, but you are seeing it wrong anyway after calibration if it appears blue tinged.

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post #10 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 11:49 AM
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What Mark suggests is fine for personal viewing.

But if you want to calibrate, you'll need to get the numbers to line up.

Weather or not that color looks tinged to you or not, it will be the color ALL D65 sources appear to you. So if you are in a theater, your home, viewing your business's marketing materials at a design studio, or sitting next to the colorist while they finalize the blu-ray release, D65 will appear the same color to you. How you perceive that color may be up in the air, but the ability to reliably reproduce the same color is the essential part of calibration.


The fact is that "white" is a function of your brains processing of the spectrum you're viewing, and a wide variety of shades will look white with the right viewing conditions.

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post #11 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 02:51 PM
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Joel. I did use the word for personal viewing in my suggestion.

And if he sees it wrong under d65 lighting conditions what is so wrong in seeing right under HT conditions. I would rather have it right sometimes rather than always wrong. I would like to perceive as the artistic chain perceives it rather than how it is displayed to them and I will assume they have young unfiltered eyes.

My wife and I watched a movie together and she prefered my watch alone gray scale. Her eyes have yellowed also.

She gets her hair done and complains it is too yellow, others younger say there is no yellow in it. She shops for white tile and complains they don't show her white but off white. Even without a good eye reference us old geezers can remember what white looks like.

I really think getting white right from one's memory if that is all that is available is important, much more so than minor induced errors in other colors which really do not make much difference perception wise. De 1, de 2, de 3. It really makes no difference. Get white right to your eyes, get the skin tones right and go away. The rest is minor though we obsess

Things are different for the production industry or where monitors must be matched. Medicine lots of places. But HT single display it just is not worth the obsession that some place on it. I realize that some my feel otherwise, particularly those in the calibration industry, but I think in fact that it makes little difference when you reach reasonable des it all depends on the display and the linearity of its decoder where multipoint calibration migh visablye improve things with a display with a crappy decoder.


I mean no disrespect here. Not food for thought for enginners who follow rhe rules waiting for someone smarter or of higher authority than they to say now we should follow this not that. The Joe Kane and or ISF deciples.

A scientist always questions. Asking why? Challenging the reasoning of others. Sometimes accepting sometimes rejecting. Its all good.

If something is right for you and doing something doesn't hurt someone else or violate their rights, than its OK even if it runs contrary to accepted calibration practices.Its so much better for me and my wife. And I am glad I did it myself instead of using certain others posting here.

What do you do. The customers says the grayscale looks, blue or red. Tell him its perfect, see the graph 6504 K, not some wrong 6500K. I would make him happy and t set a memory with it set so it looked uncolored to him and one as I measuredI bet I would get repeat business rather than another person saying I didn't like it the way the calibrator did it.

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post #12 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 03:00 PM
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Which was my point.

D65 is a thing, a tangible physical spectral response that has precise objective values.

White is your brains interpretation of the brightest whitish color it currently sees. We can guarantee that if we calibrate several displays to D65 you should see the same thing, but what you see is your biology and beyond the control of the calibrator.

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post #13 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 03:15 PM
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Thank God it is beyond the calibrator's control.The 4th amendment protects us from that. Now it doesn't. I know.

But the calibrator could do as I suggested above. That is in his power and control. Its outside the bookIt isn't scientific is it? Or isn't it. Ones eyes might be a better net result meter than any spectro etc.

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post #14 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

But the calibrator could do as I suggested above. That is in his power and control. Its outside the bookIt isn't scientific is it?

Not really, he can't see what you see, so he's just widely adjusting values to no reference, with out some structure you can't possible do this correctly in a repeatable way. Science seeks to quantify and produce repeatable results.


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Or isn't it. Ones eyes might be a better net result meter than any spectro etc.
Yes/No. Our eyes have better low light sensitivity when they go into rod only mode, but they are absolutely horrible at trying to isolate a shade of color without a reference, and when you are in the functional range a spectro will be far more accurate at predicting color differences than your eyes.

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post #15 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 04:40 PM
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No. Many of the old line calibrators are getting fairly old and do not have great vision any longer.But the calibrator can respond to what the customer says. It looks too blue. It looks too yellow. In my case he could add blue with me telling him when enough. And it would be fairly repeatable.

Your position is inflexible and the best you can say is get your single display calibrated so you will look at the same dis[lay colors as the artistic team looked at even though you will see them GROSSLY WRONG but you will see them that way too if outdoors under d65 conditions. Perfect. No thanks. That's what you want me to buy equipment, programs, and take classes to do or hire a Pro to do that. I realize I have all that already and can do it myself.

But that's your position and you are stcking too it saying that's tough, there nothing a calibrator can or should do.

That my friend is where we differ. Going beyond the meters amd the standards to take the customers vision into account as the customer perceives it is far better than the customer living with gross color errors as he perceives thing. Better, far better, and a better use of science or whatever, to get the thing off the ground. To let the customer fly instead of being stuck in the control tower with a dogmatic calibrator.

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post #16 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

No. Many of the old line calibrators are getting fairly old and do not have great vision any longer.But the calibrator can respond to what the customer says. It looks too blue. It looks too yellow. In my case he could add blue with me telling him when enough. And it would be fairly repeatable.

Too blue compared to what? Memory?
Memory is not repetable in these terms.

Would you hire a calibrator who had no equipment, and simply assured you they remember what the colors are suppose to look like? On it's face that is your argument.

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Your position is inflexible and the best you can say is get your single display calibrated so you will look at the same dis[lay colors as the artistic team looked at even though you will see them GROSSLY WRONG but you will see them that way too if outdoors under d65 conditions. Perfect. No thanks. That's what you want me to buy equipment, programs, and take classes to do or hire a Pro to do that. I realize I have all that already and can do it myself.

But that's your position and you are stcking too it saying that's tough, there nothing a calibrator can or should do.

That my friend is where we differ. Going beyond the meters amd the standards to take the customers vision into account as the customer perceives it is far better than the customer living with gross color errors as he perceives thing. Better, far better, and a better use of science or whatever, to get the thing off the ground. To let the customer fly instead of being stuck in the control tower with a dogmatic calibrator.

We'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm in support of international standards, repeatability, and uniform color reproduction over all color critical displays.

You're in support of doing what you want with your TV.
You're not wrong, but what you want isn't calibration.
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post #17 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 11:41 PM
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Joel. You know that on its face that is not my argument. That is your attempt to put my suggestion down and your argument does not measure up to international debate standards and hopefully you will not repeat it. If you can't come up with a legitimate argument just stop.

Calibration in pertinent part as it is presently defined is designed to make displays meet certain specified color standards. There are various tools for doing this and it is arquable which programs are best for studeo use. But for HT use, Spectracal and Chromapure are two of the best. Unfortunately, calibration does not involve adjustment for how one perceives color in light of their own eyes. In the process of color coding various eyes look at calibrated displays and code as to how they perceive the color rather than how its displayed and HT color calibration is designed just to duplicate the display. It is scientific, more or less repeatable, depends on your tolerance, I am running out of tolerance, and is based on international standards. It is interesting that you state you support uniform color reproduction over all color critical displays.

Now. Is a HT display a color critical display? Is it really.

Is it critical that that display match other displays.

Whether you like it or not, most HT customers want to see the colors as they were perceived by the artistic chain. This is critical. many HT viewers including most older ones say 60 and above will not see the colors as they were perceived by the artists. They will see color tinged grayscales and yellow tinged whites. Assuming they still posses a minimum of brain functionality, they will remember how white and gray used to look. They know they are seeing it not as the artists saw it even those the calibrator says the gray scales is perfectly gray. the calibrator as no tools by which to measure how the customer's eyes are off. If he did, he could compensate the display to let the customer see the colors the artistic chain saw assuming they had good eyes. But he can't. Calibration is for the display and not for what is perceived off the display.

Now. This is where your argument against my point fails so miserably. Calibration does not measure perception error There is no tool. Pity. It would be something else a calibration company could sell. You have no clue as to the degree of the error. No measurement tool.


Wait just a second. Has the light lit there yet? The customer has a tool. Now it may not be quantitative but it is qualitative. Yes the customer has eyes. The customer has a memory. The customer has a brain. Something a calibrator really doesn't need anymore. Autocal. OK OK I degress

The customer can see color tinging on a gray scale. Doesn't even involve his memory. The customer can tell me, gray is too blue or white is too yellow. He can say stop when it looks right to him. We can go back and repeat the stop point. It will likely be rather repeatable. Just depends on the tolerable degree of error.Sure the method is crude. But it is probably better than just living with the set error in perception that results from calibration and bad eyes. You can't measure it but the customer can with his eyes and by respomding to his perception can you say this has made matters worse for the customer. No you can't and don't insult me by trying. A qualitative measures is better than no measure. And the customer is made happy rather than just being told be happy, its right, its just you. Don't trivicize my suggestion. It brings me closer to the artistic intent than any calibration could. Deviation is good for deviates.

Surewly you can understand my point. And the need for deviation under appropriate circumstances. Its a good fix and far better than doing nothing.

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post #18 of 66 Old 03-06-2013, 11:52 PM
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Too blue compared to what? Memory?
Memory is not repetable in these terms.

Would you hire a calibrator who had no equipment, and simply assured you they remember what the colors are suppose to look like? On it's face that is your argument.

Joel. You know that on its face that is not my argument. That is your attempt to put my suggestion down and your argument does not measure up to international debate standards and hopefully you will not repeat it. If you can't come up with a legitimate argument just stop.

That is exactly your argument.
You the calibrator, are going to adjust white to what you remember white looking like, what seems like white to you. With out you in the room, there is no reference to reproduce the result.


That's not calibration, it's more akin to tailoring. You can't make a good suit without the client, if you are going to fit things to taste. Tailoring a display to your personal preference is fine, but it's not calibration.


A good professional calibrator should always take care of their clients, I know Micheal Chen and others have great stories about people who aren't happy with the final product of a calibrated display and chose to modify the image after calibration.

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post #19 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 09:52 AM
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I think the point of argument is the definition of a calibration. A calibration is to make the display accurately produce color wise what is sent to it to display. Many want a tailored calibraion as you put it so they perceive what the artists intended. That's it. And using the viewers eyes, his observations and even his memory is likely to better obtain that goal than an untailered calibration. We agree on most of this. You just don't like it because it is not precise and it involves going on things other than meter readings. I say its better than doing nothing and stopping with an untailored calibration which given certain customers will result in which I think you would concede is a very poor fitting suit. You know it will result with these certain customers as not them not seeing the colors as the artists perceive. The argument is using eyes etc will get it closer. As one who has such eyes,Ii can definately report that it does and that fortunately is verifiable because I have one eye of two that isn't filtered. I adjust or offset with both eyes open and then check that against a by the book calibration looking with only one eye. Its definately closer, much closer. so I conclude the adjustment is beneficial and is better than doing nothing and I strongly recommend that others with cateracs do the same. I have observations that support my thesis. Your argument against doing this is that it moves away from the limitations of pure measurement and the standards. i suggest you focus on what the customer wants and the need to move away from your diety if that gets the customer closer.

Others should understand that this is a debate among friends. it is not an attack and it is not disrespectful. Its a debate.

An analogy would be a calibration by the book finds you the best suit on the rack. But it doesn't get you a suit that fits. My point is if the suit doesn't fit don't buy it unless it can be tailored by whatever method to make it a better fit even if the fit isn't perfect.

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post #20 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 09:56 AM
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I think the point of argument is the definition of a calibration. A calibration is to make the display accurately produce color wise what is sent to it to display.

Calibration is adjusting the display so its output is as close to the same as possible when compared to an industry standard. Adjusting the display to make up for a visual handicap is not calibration by any definition of the word. As you note above, make the display accurately produce color wise what is sent to it to display, is correct. Adjusting the display to show what you perceive as correct is not calibration.
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post #21 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 10:23 AM
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Read my post again. I agree with our working definition of what a calibration is. And I am not saying what you mistate in your last sentence inadvertently. I have not advocated adjusting the set to show what you perceive. I am advocating adjusting the display so you perceive the colors as one would with good eyes.The result one gets with a buy the book calibration is not what those with bad eyes want. Give them what they want. Many of the benefits of a by the book calibration will still be there. Make the calibration fit if you can. And the customers eyes become the fitting tool. There can be no denial of this.

Someday we may have the science and better tools to do this. it would be wonderful if a calibration by the book could make the perception oif colors better. It will happen someday. A calibration for the individual. And a calibration for the standard viewer when the audience is mixed.

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post #22 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 10:52 AM
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OMG ... yet another thread has been infected. At this rate, we might as well just give up and crank them "knobs" 'til the picture looks real pretty. wink.gif
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I am advocating adjusting the display so you perceive the colors as one would with good eyes.

Well as soon as you develop a viable, objective method along with tools for doing this, you might find a more welcoming response from the community.

Until, then all you're really doing is decreasing the signal to noise ratio, not to mention aggravating several well respected members of the forum.
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post #23 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 11:24 AM
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Now I know why so many older women have blue hair! Their eyes have yellowed and they want their hair to look white to them, regardless of how alien it looks to the majority of people.

What do you do for commercial cinemas?
What do you do for fine art exhibits?
What do you do for live stage plays?
Does your food look funny?
Do you insist that your wife tint her face blue so it looks like it used to?
Have you had all of your wardrobe and interior design elements at home tinted blue, or do you use tinted lenses?
Wouldn't it make more sense for viewers who have inordinately severe color shift in their vision to use corrective measures enabling them to see the whole world as they remember?
Why limit your correction to TV watching?
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post #24 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 11:40 AM
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George. This is obviously for an individual viewer rather than a group of viewers. I said that. And no its for all sources of content not just TV shows.Obviously, for non HT viewing corrective filters in glasses would be better. But for HT viewing, the level of filtration needed would be too high for the available light. I tried that and corrective filtration made the light too dim. But its nice to see you thinking about this.

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post #25 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 11:56 AM
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OMG ... yet another thread has been infected. At this rate, we might as well just give up and crank them "knobs" 'til the picture looks real pretty. wink.gif
Well as soon as you develop a viable, objective method along with tools for doing this, you might find a more welcoming response from the community.

Until, then all you're really doing is decreasing the signal to noise ratio, not to mention aggravating several well respected members of the forum.

Making people aware of a problem and getting them to think about it should not be perceived as aggravation. That is not my intent. If it causes aggravation so be it.

You know there at this point can not be what you are asking of me. But the question boils down to doing nothing because of that or making a misfitting suit fit better.

If this thread bothers you you can just choose to ignore it. Its OK with me. I won't be offended at all.

I welcome constructive comments. If my recommendations are not accepted by all or most, its OK. Being wrong is a right we all have. You think you are right and I think I am right. That's great. Nothing wrong with that at all. My posts are not intended to aggravate anyone and they shouldn't. If they do, its a problem they have but that should not stand in the way of open constructive comment. Majorities are often wrong but continued dissent and speaking out is alllowed and could be constructive.

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post #26 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 11:57 AM
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George. This is obviously for an individual viewer rather than a group of viewers. I said that. And no its for all sources of content not just TV shows.Obviously, for non HT viewing corrective filters in glasses would be better. But for HT viewing, the level of filtration needed would be too high for the available light. I tried that and corrective filtration made the light too dim. But its nice to see you thinking about this.
Since corrective filtration renders low light conditions too dark, between what hours of the day must you endure the whole world being too yellow? Of course, I could assume you will be unconscious for a big chunk of that. Do you dream in yellowed or memory color?
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post #27 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 01:01 PM
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OMG ... yet another thread has been infected. At this rate, we might as well just give up and crank them "knobs" 'til the picture looks real pretty. wink.gif

This "crusade" by one individual with an eye problem agains what is the scientific definition of a calibration is getting extremely tiresome. Everyone has a right to their opinion, no problem, but to toss it out in any thread he can besides the one he created specifically for it is really annoying.
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post #28 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 01:25 PM
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George. I don't know about the color of my dreams. Adding compensating color filters to ones eyes eats up too much of the light coming off the screen. I tried it with filters sent me by a poster in this forum.

Wouter the problem afflicts many and I have been in communication with many AVSers who have the same problem. The hostility to my suggestion only comes from tha calibration community. If it bothers you discussing it here, and this thread was not started by me but by someone who saw gray being blue tinged. i suggested a fix. And Sotti esculated the discussion. That was his choice. If Sotti says its OK, I will take this to the projector threads to elucidate very clearly that a calibration does not necesarily mean one will see the colors as the director and colorist perceived them. i have attempted to contain the discussion herein to this forum where consumers seeking calibrations, an ISF calibration, generally don't populate. My comments are on point in this thread as well as the other one. I will continually respond to post such as yours. If you want the thread to end for whatever reason you and others simply can cease to respond. I am not trying to win a popularity contest. My position is valid despite what the majority of the calibration community thinks. Sotti understands my points and in numerous posts has recognized the problem. He does find fault with my solution but can't come up with a better one. My point, if its the best one has and one has the problem you might as well try it.

I find many of the responses here annoying but I choose to suffer through them. Just the kinda guy I am. smile.gif

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post #29 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

OMG ... yet another thread has been infected. At this rate, we might as well just give up and crank them "knobs" 'til the picture looks real pretty. wink.gif

This "crusade" by one individual with an eye problem agains what is the scientific definition of a calibration is getting extremely tiresome. Everyone has a right to their opinion, no problem, but to toss it out in any thread he can besides the one he created specifically for it is really annoying.
I agree 100%. This crusade is getting very stale indeed.
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post #30 of 66 Old 03-07-2013, 02:35 PM
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