Calibration with Animated movies Like Disney - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-24-2013, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
TK-713's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just wondering, I understand why we calibrate TV sets, but do they Calibrate to 6500 when making Animated movies like Disneys Tangled and cartoon type movies?

I just find on natural settings the colors are alot more bright and vivid and the picture looks great. When using the THX setting I find looks to dull. I do love the THX setting for MOVIES, and always watch it in THX mode.
TK-713 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-24-2013, 11:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Michael TLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: THX/ISF Calibrationist/Instructor, Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 138
Greetings


All the studio monitors are calibrated to the standard ... the same standard. It is d65 ... and d65 has nothing to do with the vividness of colors. It is the shade of gray ... (white). The standard also uses the REC 709 color triangle ... which contains a fixed number of colors. If you use a larger triangle ... you get more colors ... More is not better or correct. It is simply more (and wrong).

regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

Michael TLV is offline  
Old 02-24-2013, 12:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
GeorgeAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 3,320
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-713 View Post

Just wondering, I understand why we calibrate TV sets, but do they Calibrate to 6500 when making Animated movies like Disneys Tangled and cartoon type movies?

I just find on natural settings the colors are alot more bright and vivid and the picture looks great. When using the THX setting I find looks to dull. I do love the THX setting for MOVIES, and always watch it in THX mode.
How can you understand why TV sets are calibrated if you do not understand the nature of a "standard?" It's the movie and video program production community that developed the standards we follow in video reproduction devices.

The THX Mode provided in THX Certified displays will be the most accurate factory pre-programmed viewing mode out of the box. Due to the limitations of mass production, a THX Certified display will still benefit from individual calibration. Viewing environment conditions will likely also vary, so adjustments must be made to compensate for individual installations. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849430

Just because you THINK a program looks better to you with brighter colors does not mean it was mastered that way. The only way to know for sure that the picture is correct is if your display is calibrated to the same standards used in calibrating the mastering monitors in the studio. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
GeorgeAB is offline  
Old 02-25-2013, 07:36 AM
Member
 
diego hammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What is the frame original in the Blu-Ray Disc edition?

Is the imagen pre-coding that is approved in the study monitor? Or that obtained in our home on our display or PC monitor calibrated?

Ultimately. What would be the original frame of a Blu-Ray Disc? The image obtained in the study monitor? or the image obtained at home through our domestic video stream?

Why cinematrográfica version is different from the edition Blu-Ray Disc?

Excuse my english

thank you very much
diego hammer is offline  
Old 02-25-2013, 08:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,640
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 175
In the olden days, content when on film, which has a different gamut than video.

Now the target for theatrical release is DCI P3 gamut and home video is rec709.

I believe it is typical for the directory of cinematography to sit in for signing off on both releases.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
Old 02-25-2013, 11:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
GeorgeAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 3,320
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

In the olden days, content when on film, which has a different gamut than video.

Now the target for theatrical release is DCI P3 gamut and home video is rec709.

I believe it is typical for the directory of cinematography to sit in for signing off on both releases.
These are still the "olden days." I have been subscribing to 'American Cinematographer' for several years now and I can assure you that many leading DPs (Director of Photography) still prefer and photograph their motion picture projects with film. Mainstream movies do go through a DI (Digital Intermediate) stage before duplication and release, but this process retains the characteristics that film aficionados admire. The DI process is largely done in 4K/12 bit these days. Film release prints are then made from the post-DI masters. There are also many commercial cinemas still using film projection around the country, although fewer by the day. However, this is a video forum and video calibration assumes video displays are aligned for faithful reproduction of video programs.

Certainly, some of the original motion picture version of a program is altered and/or lost in the conversion to the video format. However, what you get is what you see. Any attempts by consumers to reverse the differences between the video version and cinema version would be a fool's errand, limited by the technology, and only guesswork/wishful thinking on the part of the viewer.
GeorgeAB is offline  
Old 02-27-2013, 02:35 AM
Member
 
diego hammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank you very much

the question is. What is the original image in a movie of blu-ray disc? The image on the monitor approved study to blu-ray disc? or display image obtained in our calibration because it is impossible to match the image that was obtained during the approval process in the studio monitor?

My question is given because I read that it is practically impossible to match approved image editing blu-ray disc because our viewers can not get that image on its own merits and because unknown details as gamma, white point, brightness room, etc. and because the studio monitor features are very different from our displays domestic. Must present this to the approver or simply not possible to match the fidelity of the original image?

Thanks for your answers
diego hammer is offline  
Old 02-27-2013, 11:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
GeorgeAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 3,320
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by diego hammer View Post

Thank you very much

the question is. What is the original image in a movie of blu-ray disc? The image on the monitor approved study to blu-ray disc? or display image obtained in our calibration because it is impossible to match the image that was obtained during the approval process in the studio monitor?

My question is given because I read that it is practically impossible to match approved image editing blu-ray disc because our viewers can not get that image on its own merits and because unknown details as gamma, white point, brightness room, etc. and because the studio monitor features are very different from our displays domestic. Must present this to the approver or simply not possible to match the fidelity of the original image?

Thanks for your answers
We appear to have a language barrier to some degree. I have been doing business with post production studios regularly for years, and talk to their engineers and technicians over the phone, and/or correspond via e-mail. These include subcontractors to the movie studios with names you probably recognize from watching the credits at the end of a movie on optical disc: Technicolor, Deluxe, Deluxe Digital Studios, E-Film, The Criterion Collection, Chainsaw Edit, Encore Hollywood, The Moving Picture Company, Colorflow Post, PostWorks, etc. It's not unusual (or "impossible") at all for them to have large format consumer displays (typically plasmas) that serve as review monitors for client approval use. This is done precisely to emulate what the end consumer might see when they purchase the DVD or BD. Viewing environment conditions for client review are also according to industry recommended practice.

Consumer video systems can deviate from standards and best practices in an endless variety of ways. The only way to get close to realizing image fidelity in a consumer system is to duplicate or emulate professional standards and conditions as much as possible. That is essentially why we have this forum. Just because an individual consumer's video reproduction system cannot match professional conditions in every regard, should we abandon all efforts to approximate ideal conditions? That is exactly what some readers of this forum conclude. If consumers genuinely value image fidelity, they will pursue it as far as they are practically able. Imaging excellence, in the context of fidelity, is only reliably obtainable by the application of imaging science principles, and motion imaging industry standards/recommended practices.
GeorgeAB is offline  
Old 02-27-2013, 12:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Michael TLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: THX/ISF Calibrationist/Instructor, Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,774
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 138
Greetings

Well if you can only save 90% of the people and not all of them ... you may as well let everyone die. biggrin.gif

regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

Michael TLV is offline  
Old 02-27-2013, 01:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Doug Blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Francisco - East Bay area
Posts: 3,457
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 228
Or... if you can only save 10% of the people, why bother?

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX -- ISF -- HAA
Doug Blackburn is offline  
Old 02-27-2013, 01:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
GeorgeAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 3,320
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Ok, television is rarely a life or death issue, but logic is not the enemy of artistic reproduction. The amount of difficulty in achieving a high degree of image fidelity via consumer video devices is so much less today than ten years ago it's amazing! However, it still requires understanding how to reach that goal. Many audio and video consumers just grope their way through all the options available to them in setup menus. Understanding the science opens many more doors to performance excellence. Professional assistance is available to most consumers today, if the process is too daunting.

Like any hobby, electronic home entertainment sophistication will be limited by knowledge, budget, personal lifestyle priorities, and/or personal preferences. Full professional grade performance and equipment options are available to the consumer, in their home, if desired.
Gregg Loewen likes this.
GeorgeAB is offline  
Old 03-01-2013, 06:37 AM
Member
 
diego hammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

We appear to have a language barrier to some degree. I have been doing business with post production studios regularly for years, and talk to their engineers and technicians over the phone, and/or correspond via e-mail. These include subcontractors to the movie studios with names you probably recognize from watching the credits at the end of a movie on optical disc: Technicolor, Deluxe, Deluxe Digital Studios, E-Film, The Criterion Collection, Chainsaw Edit, Encore Hollywood, The Moving Picture Company, Colorflow Post, PostWorks, etc. It's not unusual (or "impossible") at all for them to have large format consumer displays (typically plasmas) that serve as review monitors for client approval use. This is done precisely to emulate what the end consumer might see when they purchase the DVD or BD. Viewing environment conditions for client review are also according to industry recommended practice.

Consumer video systems can deviate from standards and best practices in an endless variety of ways. The only way to get close to realizing image fidelity in a consumer system is to duplicate or emulate professional standards and conditions as much as possible. That is essentially why we have this forum. Just because an individual consumer's video reproduction system cannot match professional conditions in every regard, should we abandon all efforts to approximate ideal conditions? That is exactly what some readers of this forum conclude. If consumers genuinely value image fidelity, they will pursue it as far as they are practically able. Imaging excellence, in the context of fidelity, is only reliably obtainable by the application of imaging science principles, and motion imaging industry standards/recommended practices.

Thanks and sorry that because of the language has some difficulty understanding what you are teaching me

In that case what you mean. That the domestic edition Blu-Ray is finally approved by the director of the film on consumers screens, and not dominated and mastered on professional grade monitors study?

I read an excellent article which explained in detail how films like Avatar are corrected and approved by the director of the film in professional studies.

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2011/12/why-we-calibrate-myths/

Blu-Ray is mastered and approved in the professional grade monitor calibrated properly, or otherwise approved in everyday consumer display unprofessional that can more effectively simulate environments consumers' homes to the destination for the movies?

Not It would be more appropriate to approved finally Blu-Ray content on daily consumers screens, as that is the final destination of a film Blu-Ray?

Thank you very much and excuse my english
diego hammer is offline  
Old 03-01-2013, 11:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
GeorgeAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 3,320
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by diego hammer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

We appear to have a language barrier to some degree. I have been doing business with post production studios regularly for years, and talk to their engineers and technicians over the phone, and/or correspond via e-mail. These include subcontractors to the movie studios with names you probably recognize from watching the credits at the end of a movie on optical disc: Technicolor, Deluxe, Deluxe Digital Studios, E-Film, The Criterion Collection, Chainsaw Edit, Encore Hollywood, The Moving Picture Company, Colorflow Post, PostWorks, etc. It's not unusual (or "impossible") at all for them to have large format consumer displays (typically plasmas) that serve as review monitors for client approval use. This is done precisely to emulate what the end consumer might see when they purchase the DVD or BD. Viewing environment conditions for client review are also according to industry recommended practice.

Consumer video systems can deviate from standards and best practices in an endless variety of ways. The only way to get close to realizing image fidelity in a consumer system is to duplicate or emulate professional standards and conditions as much as possible. That is essentially why we have this forum. Just because an individual consumer's video reproduction system cannot match professional conditions in every regard, should we abandon all efforts to approximate ideal conditions? That is exactly what some readers of this forum conclude. If consumers genuinely value image fidelity, they will pursue it as far as they are practically able. Imaging excellence, in the context of fidelity, is only reliably obtainable by the application of imaging science principles, and motion imaging industry standards/recommended practices.

Thanks and sorry that because of the language has some difficulty understanding what you are teaching me

In that case what you mean. That the domestic edition Blu-Ray is finally approved by the director of the film on consumers screens, and not dominated and mastered on professional grade monitors study?

I read an excellent article which explained in detail how films like Avatar are corrected and approved by the director of the film in professional studies.

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2011/12/why-we-calibrate-myths/

Blu-Ray is mastered and approved in the professional grade monitor calibrated properly, or otherwise approved in everyday consumer display unprofessional that can more effectively simulate environments consumers' homes to the destination for the movies?

Not It would be more appropriate to approved finally Blu-Ray content on daily consumers screens, as that is the final destination of a film Blu-Ray?

Thank you very much and excuse my english
Professional practices are not 100% universally consistent. It would be naive to expect best practices to be followed by everyone all the time. Some studios and post production services providers face very restrictive budget limits that cause them to cut corners. There will always be a disconnect between theory and practice in varying degrees. Sometimes this is simply due to differences of opinion or philosophy. It's common for many people to assume recommended practice is used all the time. That will never be the case. When we learn what is best or recommended, it's up to each individual whether they follow through or deviate from what is learned. Of course, this can result in consequences and compromises to quality.

The purpose of this forum is to educate the home entertainment community through sharing information. I am an advocate for imaging science principles, plus motion imaging industry standards and best practices, in order to preserve image fidelity. Movies are my favorite art form, followed by music. This forum offers both good and bad information on those topics. Each reader must sort through it all to decide what to follow. Agreement is not always necessary. Let logic, reason, and clarity prevail. Beware of unsupported opinions from posters with made-up names and no credentials.
GeorgeAB is offline  
Old 03-01-2013, 11:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
Posts: 4,435
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post


The THX Mode provided in THX Certified displays will be the most accurate factory pre-programmed viewing mode out of the box.

on many models, THX, with defaults, is still poor out of the box... of course that's not saying much for that model's other available selections/picture modes with their defaults which leave a lot to be desired (we shouldn't count the neutral picture modes which are meant to be calibrated/adjusted in the final environment).

Need to find a Professional Calibrator? Click Here to PM me with your Display & City

Calibrator List - Pioneer ISFccc Interface

Calibration Reports - Pioneer

 

ControlCAL™
Designed by Calibrators for Calibrators™

No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

turbe is offline  
Old 03-01-2013, 11:53 AM
Member
 
cesarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Not It would be more appropriate to approved finally Blu-Ray content on daily consumers screens, as that is the final destination of a film Blu-Ray?

In that display consumer? in plasma, in led (localdimming or edge led)

In that manufacturer?is not the same image the obtained one in a plasma panasonic that in a pioneer,or in a samsung,more DFC in panasonic,more PWN in pioneer etc...

The approval of the material should be made in professional grade monitors,Since these lack many of the faults that s have ours display consumers,and therefore they are those who more faithfully reproducing the material (that is what we are approving)

Another thing is a final review of the material already approved in a not professional screen.

Finally he is the final user the fact that across the calibration of his screen and the better electronic for video processing to obtain that the resultant image of his chain of video be as close as possible to the professional grade monitors
cesarion is offline  
Old 03-01-2013, 01:53 PM
Member
 
diego hammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for your answers. Now I have clearer

Greetings, Belock
diego hammer is offline  
Old 03-01-2013, 02:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,640
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by cesarion View Post

In that display consumer? in plasma, in led (localdimming or edge led)

In that manufacturer?is not the same image the obtained one in a plasma panasonic that in a pioneer,or in a samsung,more DFC in panasonic,more PWN in pioneer etc...

I've been in some studios and also in a few post houses.

While the Panasonic professional plasma line is quite popular, I think it's safe to say they look at all manner of consumer displays. Several people I've talked to love the Plasmas, others only want IPS based LCDs. Of course the most important decisions are of course made on the most accurate professional monitors.

The biggest difference I've seen between professional hardware and consumer hardware is not the performance, but it's calibration out of the box. Consumer gear comes with widget, dynamic maximizers and such and defaults to torch mode. Pro gear OTOH comes out of the box with a reasonable calibration and a settings menu that only has the features that would get used for switching colorspaces and setting up the display correctly. The truth is that a well behaved consumer display with a radiance 3D LUT in front of it is going to be very very close to the performance of the gear in the studio.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
Old 03-01-2013, 04:19 PM
Member
 
cesarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
i agreed

But when we compare displays calibrated even with values deltas below theoretically valuably We Estimate differences that are produced by the processing of video(upsamplig chroma,conversion berween YCbCr to RGB,scaling and deinterlacin if is necessary
filters not disconnectable etc...)or by the own technology of the screen as the ABL of the plasmas.

This does that though we have two calibrated screens and therefore correct we do not know with certainty which of them approaches mas the ideal theoretical one, the image in this monitor of study.

But it is not a problem, we do not calibrate to obtain this ideal theoretical one, but to achieve that our chain of video approaches possible maximum to.
cesarion is offline  
Old 03-02-2013, 03:41 AM
Member
 
diego hammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I've been in some studios and also in a few post houses.

While the Panasonic professional plasma line is quite popular, I think it's safe to say they look at all manner of consumer displays. Several people I've talked to love the Plasmas, others only want IPS based LCDs. Of course the most important decisions are of course made on the most accurate professional monitors.

The biggest difference I've seen between professional hardware and consumer hardware is not the performance, but it's calibration out of the box. Consumer gear comes with widget, dynamic maximizers and such and defaults to torch mode. Pro gear OTOH comes out of the box with a reasonable calibration and a settings menu that only has the features that would get used for switching colorspaces and setting up the display correctly. The truth is that a well behaved consumer display with a radiance 3D LUT in front of it is going to be very very close to the performance of the gear in the studio.


By PC or HTPC could get the same excelent results as using 3D LUT Lumagen 5X5X5?

thank you
diego hammer is offline  
Old 03-02-2013, 09:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,640
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by diego hammer View Post

By PC or HTPC could get the same excelent results as using 3D LUT Lumagen 5X5X5?

thank you

Not that I've seen, what's required is a high-end 3D LUT generator software which doesn't exist for the 1 renderer that supports 3D LUTs.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
Old 03-14-2013, 10:44 PM
 
kiltedscotsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ok, television is rarely a life or death issue....
Exactly....as I said to one of my clients when giving analogies as to how and why calibration is done, when they asked the (frequent) question - "Well why aren't TV's made to act the same? They can make a model of car the same" And my answer was, "TV maker's don't make TVs all the same within a fine tolerance for many reasons, but one of them is because nobody ever got killed watching a bad picture!" biggrin.gif
kiltedscotsman is offline  
Old 03-14-2013, 11:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sotti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,640
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiltedscotsman View Post

Exactly....as I said to one of my clients when giving analogies as to how and why calibration is done, when they asked the (frequent) question - "Well why aren't TV's act the same? They can make a model of car the same" And my answer was, "TV maker's don't make TVs all the same within a fine tolerance for many reasons, but one of them is because nobody ever got killed watching a bad picture!" biggrin.gif

I would also assert that different cars are different by a few HP. The suspensions are built within tolerences, ect...


If you take 10 of the same model TV's out of the box they are all going to be very similar, not so similiar that calibrated settings are exactly the same, but they will be relatively close.


But different models of TV are just as different as different model cars, made to appeal to different peoples sensibilities.

Joel Barsotti
SpectraCal
CalMAN Lead Developer
sotti is offline  
Old 03-14-2013, 11:38 PM
 
kiltedscotsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Indeed! So...if Tvs could be equivalent to a car brand, could Pioneers be a Lexus? tongue.gif And a Sharp 90" is a ...... haha....I'm not even gonna go there.
kiltedscotsman is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off