ee/ColorBox, LightSpace, and 3D LUT Calibration - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 496 Old 03-14-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post


My only point is that this flaw exists, even though Steve denied it early in the thread.

Steve mentioned in regards to this in the past with the statement they were working with EE on the issue (nearly 6 months ago)..
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

The eeColor box seems to only work with TV legal level display, and we are working with Entertainment Experience on addressing the issue - adding full range data as well as TV legal capabilities (PC and TV level options).

recent:
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

We use a 65x65x65 formats with LightSpace and the eeColor LUT box, and the results are far from 'unusable' for PC (data) formats.

Actually works very well biggrin.gif

Steve

For the vast majority of users posting here, video levels will be it and from the marketing material directly from EE that I've read (not from early Distributor's marketing) for this and their other product, they really targeting the Home Theater market IMO though there may be some that want to use this fed by their PC who haven't been happy with LUT attempts on the PC

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post #62 of 496 Old 03-14-2013, 11:08 AM
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Hi
you said that Calman 5.1 will support eecolor box while mine already works with LS and Calman 5.1 Enthusiast. My eecolor box is special or what?
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post #63 of 496 Old 03-14-2013, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

We use a 65x65x65 formats with LightSpace and the eeColor LUT box, and the results are far from 'unusable' for PC (data) formats.

Actually works very well biggrin.gif

Steve
For the vast majority of users posting here, video levels will be it and from the marketing material directly from EE that I've read (not from early Distributor's marketing) for this and their other product, they really targeting the Home Theater market IMO though there may be some that want to use this fed by their PC who haven't been happy with LUT attempts on the PC

Yes, but the issue is he is impling that it is a 65x65x65 device, when it is not. And no amount of contacting EE is going to fix it. You don't think we contacted them about it as well? We've been working with EE for well over a year. The box is 64^3 with uncalibrated maximum points and we've been told that it is going to stay that way.

All the LUTs are text files, if you crack them open you see that there are only 64^3 lines (262,144).

The point is he came into the thread, made statements that are technically inaccurate and called me out as being incorrect, when all the technical data clearly supports what I was trying to add to the thread. You'll have to excuse be for being upset when I add factual information to a thread and get falsely called out by a competitor who has absolutely no data to support their assertion.
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post #64 of 496 Old 03-14-2013, 11:32 AM
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for those not familiar with using the Window's console, you can type the following in your command prompt to get the count:

findstr /R /N "^" filename.txt


EDIT: I checked the LUT files produced by CM and LS with this, Buzz provided me the LS file..

CM: 262144
LS: 274625



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post #65 of 496 Old 03-14-2013, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daewoo View Post

Hi
you said that Calman 5.1 will support eecolor box while mine already works with LS and Calman 5.1 Enthusiast. My eecolor box is special or what?

It's a Licensing quirk in the current version of CME, see Here

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post #66 of 496 Old 03-21-2013, 08:52 PM
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hi,
could someone please send me his EDID data of eecolor box, i think mine is corrupt because the audio is stuck in 2.0 as you can see below:

CE audio data (formats supported)
LPCM 2-channel, 16/20/24 bit depths at 32/44/48 kHz

CE speaker allocation data
Channel configuration.... 2.0
Front left/right......... Yes
Front LFE................ No
Front center............. No
Rear left/right.......... No
Rear center.............. No
Front left/right center.. No
Rear left/right center... No
Rear LFE................. No

to do it you can use the prog Monitor Asset Manager (http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm) it will save the data so i can make a driver to override the EDID information.

thanks
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post #67 of 496 Old 03-22-2013, 02:40 AM
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yes, I noticed mine would not pass DD as well, great if it could be fixed

my box info:
CE audio data (formats supported)
LPCM 2-channel, 16/20/24 bit depths at 32/44/48 kHz

CE speaker allocation data
Channel configuration.... 2.0
Front left/right......... Yes
Front LFE................ No
Front center............. No
Rear left/right.......... No
Rear center.............. No
Front left/right center.. No
Rear left/right center... No
Rear LFE................. No
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post #68 of 496 Old 03-22-2013, 02:43 AM
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mine worked correctly 4 days before i have this problem, i have manage to correct this in using the edid of my receiver and it 's works but i wanted the original EDID.
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post #69 of 496 Old 03-22-2013, 02:56 AM - Thread Starter
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post #70 of 496 Old 03-22-2013, 03:01 AM
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i have already contacted them by email 2 week ago, they have send the prob to their manufacturer for a solution
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post #71 of 496 Old 03-26-2013, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

We use a 65x65x65 formats with LightSpace and the eeColor LUT box, and the results are far from 'unusable' for PC (data) formats.

Actually works very well biggrin.gif

Steve

How do you overcome the fact that the 255/1023 points are anchored in hardware and are therefore nonadjustable?

Perhaps by using the usual technique for dealing with cLUTs - ie. setting input curves to scale the cLUT input range so that only the lower 64^3 grid nodes are used.
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post #72 of 496 Old 03-26-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post

Perhaps by using the usual technique for dealing with cLUTs - ie. setting input curves to scale the cLUT input range so that only the lower 64^3 grid nodes are used.

We just did exactly that for one of our bigger clients.

The fact is the issue exists and requires a special workaround. Regardless of what Mr. Shaw implied earlier in the thread. The box does not support 65^3 cubes.
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post #73 of 496 Old 03-26-2013, 09:51 AM
 
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Having read his posts I think you will find 'Mr. Shaw' knew exactly what he was saying...

rolleyes.gif
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post #74 of 496 Old 03-26-2013, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

yes, I noticed mine would not pass DD as well, great if it could be fixed

my box info:
CE audio data (formats supported)
LPCM 2-channel, 16/20/24 bit depths at 32/44/48 kHz

CE speaker allocation data
Channel configuration.... 2.0
Front left/right......... Yes
Front LFE................ No
Front center............. No
Rear left/right.......... No
Rear center.............. No
Front left/right center.. No
Rear left/right center... No
Rear LFE................. No
Is this true for everyone or is something just screwed up w/ Zoyd's box? That is pretty much a showstopper if you cant passthru all audio formats...
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post #75 of 496 Old 03-26-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daewoo View Post

i have already contacted them by email 2 week ago, they have send the prob to their manufacturer for a solution

I called as well and it has been confirmed by the factory and working on solution.
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post #76 of 496 Old 03-26-2013, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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From a fellow LightSpace beta tester:

HDMI test setup: QD780 <--> eeColor Box <--> Denon 4810ci receiver <--> Sony xbr55hx929 TV.

This is what I found out today:

CEC tests indicated that eeColor box says it "only" supports FR and FL audio spkrs ... this
might be the problem ... eeColor Box should also include other audio formats in its CEC
information ... like Dolby 5.1 and DTS-ES 6.1 ... which was confirmed to work. Otherwise,
the other boxes assume only Stereo is available and won't even look to see if other
audio formats are available.

Background: This all has to do with Vesa's Hot Plug Connect. At power up or upon a cable "hot" connection,
each box communicates to all other upstream and downstream Vesa compliant boxes what its
capabilities are. So, if the eeColor box only includes "audio FR, FL" and does not list Dolby 5.1
and DTS-ES 6.1 as part of its CEC info, this is interpreted by other Vesa Compliant devices as
"not being able to do it". In otherwords, because eeColor box only lists "audio FR, FL",
all other HDMI connected boxes assume "stereo only mode" ... so they don't even bother to
check for Dolby 5.1 and DTS-ES6.1 audio formats. I suggest checking all the audio formats and see which ones work then include those
formats as part of eeColor box's CEC infomation. Again, this is what the data is telling me.

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post #77 of 496 Old 03-26-2013, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

HDMI test setup: QD780 <--> eeColor Box <--> Denon 4810ci receiver <--> Sony xbr55hx929 TV.

If the eeColor was after the AVR this should be a non-issue.
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post #78 of 496 Old 03-27-2013, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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1st run - Samsung F8000 LED. Set 100% White only, Color Space Native. Pretty good TV right from the factory but now it's a lot better. Presently watching phenomenal skin tones in Braveheart.

17 point profile - 1.5 hours. Asked for 2.25 Gamma for the LUT. Edit: Oops, forgot to put 2.25 as the target - dE would have been lower.




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post #79 of 496 Old 03-27-2013, 02:43 PM
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You didn't mention this unless I am blind..

Did you profile/create the LUT with LS and then just use CM for the reporting you posted above?

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post #80 of 496 Old 03-27-2013, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

You didn't mention this unless I am blind..

Did you profile/create the LUT with LS and then just use CM for the reporting you posted above?

Yeah and I think I profiled at 75% lum which makes blue difficult for the i1Pro. I know I did that in ChromaPure which I believe explains the blue lum in this attachment. Other than that, though, really good.

F8000 2.25 LUT AdvancedColorManagementReport.pdf 1627k .pdf file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf F8000 2.25 LUT AdvancedColorManagementReport.pdf (1.59 MB, 155 views)

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post #81 of 496 Old 03-29-2013, 04:39 AM
 
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That does seem to show the benefits of a full 17^3 profile and calibration - I especially like the comment about skin tones as that has come up before as a potential issue with calibration granularity.

And 1.5 hours for a 17^3 profile is very fast! Much faster than is being discussed elsewhere eek.gif
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post #82 of 496 Old 03-29-2013, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
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And 1.5 hours for a 17^3 profile is very fast! Much faster than is being discussed elsewhere eek.gif

That's the advantage of PROFILING and CALIBRATING in two steps without read / correct / validate. I also like to press a button in order to generate different 3D-LUTs in 5 seconds instead of 10+ hours.

Source: Samsung UBD-K8500 (UHD), Panasonic BDT-110 (BD), Toshiba HD-XE1 (HD-DVD), Vantage VT-1S (SAT), Kathrein UFS-924 (SAT)
Calibration: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan, SpaceMatch, CalMAN 5 Prof., Chroma Pure, Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446, Chroma 5, SpectraCal C6, EODIS3, i1 pro 2, Klein K10-A
Target: Panasonic TX-P65VTW60 (Plasma TV)
Sound: Yamaha RX-V2067 (AVR), Teufel Theater LT 3 (Speaker)
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post #83 of 496 Old 03-29-2013, 08:43 AM
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please correct me if im wrong, just trying to under stand this.

when doing it in LS you read all the patches and then based on that you add a correction matrix on top of that, this matrix is solely based on how the calculation algorithm in the software works?
if this is the case is there no validation of the matrix?
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post #84 of 496 Old 03-29-2013, 08:47 AM
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It probably has some noise filtering checks but basically that's correct. LightSpace does not care about deltaE, all it does is calculate the change in RGB for each node point required to match the measurement to Rec709. Any objective validation (in the dE sense) must be done by the user. ArgyllCMS uses the same methodology. CalMAN optimizes it's cube based on dE calculations.
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post #85 of 496 Old 03-29-2013, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

CalMAN optimizes it's cube based on dE calculations.

Thar's not strictly true.

All dE is used for in our algorithms is for when to sign off for a point being good enough. When looking at how much adjustment any given point needs you need to be in RGB space.
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this bring up the question. how do you know the calculated offset is correct? on a display with a bad linearity could such assumptions not be wrong? or does the fact that there are so many points remove this uncertainty?
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post #87 of 496 Old 03-29-2013, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Thar's not strictly true.

All dE is used for in our algorithms is for when to sign off for a point being good enough. When looking at how much adjustment any given point needs you need to be in RGB space.

I phrased that poorly, your final product does benefit from minimizing dE though.
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post #88 of 496 Old 03-29-2013, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visca blaugrana View Post

this bring up the question. how do you know the calculated offset is correct? on a display with a bad linearity could such assumptions not be wrong? or does the fact that there are so many points remove this uncertainty?

It's just math. It's the same technique used to create a colorimeter matrix against a spectrometer.
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post #89 of 496 Old 03-29-2013, 09:37 AM
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I will answer this, as it is a very important question.

The colour engine in LightSpace is not like other calibration systems, in that each point is not treated in isolation.
True 3-dimensional mathematics is used to assess all 4913 points simultaneously, and assess the linearity of the display before any point is corrected.

This results in different corrections being applied to each and every point, based on the accuracy/linearity for each specific point.
There is no guess-work involved at all - each individual point is accurately calculates as to the off-set required to correct it specifically.

This is also why we recommend full cube profiling for displays with poor linearity, as a Quick Profile lacks the internal colour space volume (points within the cube profile) to be able to accurately define the display linearity, or lack of, when calculating the matrix offset for each and every individual point in the calibration LUT.

Does that help?

Steve

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post #90 of 496 Old 03-29-2013, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

This results in different corrections being applied to each and every point, based on the accuracy/linearity for each specific point.
There is no guess-work involved at all - each individual point is accurately calculates as to the off-set required to correct it specifically.

What do you mean their is no guess work involved?

None of the points you measure are your output values, so every single entry in your LUT is guesswork.

It might be a very good, well informed guess, but your output LUT is pure interpolation derived from input data.

If two different process take input data and generate output data, using algorithms to predict the results, their either both are guesswork or neither of them are guesswork.
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