ee/ColorBox, LightSpace, and 3D LUT Calibration - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 09:52 AM
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Some facts:

1. None of the techniques being discussed uses "guesswork"
2. Each technique measures a set of test patterns and calculates the mathematically exact change needed to correct the RGB input for that pattern and produce the desired Rec709 color.
3. Each technique will take the results of 2. and will use 3 dimensional interpolation algorithms to translate from the measured volume to the 65^3 hardware LUT.

It's not rocket science and nobody has any "special sauces" to generate more accurate results. If you do the math right and fill the volume with test patches appropriate to the degree and complexity of the non-linear space they will all give you the same result.


edit: Point number 2 assumes that the desired response of the system is one that is properly calibrated to a standard. There are many things not related to reproducing the standard source space that can be accomplished in the color transformations including both possibly beneficial ones (compensation for source/target viewing environments) and undesirable ones (visual "enhancements"). For the purposes of assessing accuracy, the exact reproduction of the source space is the only objective goal that may be considered and only the metrics of color science are allowable in making such an assessment.

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post #92 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

What do you mean their is no guess work involved?

Easy thing: LightSpace CMS is measuring EACH (!) of the 4913 points of a 17^3 cube, CalMAN doesn't !

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
Sound: Yamaha RX-V2067
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post #93 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

Easy thing: LightSpace CMS is measuring EACH (!) of the 4913 points of a 17^3 cube, CalMAN doesn't !

No Lightspace measures the raw perfomance of 4913 points.

Those are only input data.

How does it derive the output data? For instance, the output for the correction node 128, 192, 176 should cause the display to render a color of x,y,Yn 0.2729, 0.3541, 0.527.

When and where does lightspace measure an RGB triplet that has those precise values? It never does.

It measures 8 values that bound that point and uses interpolation to try and GUESS, where RGB triplets generate that value.

I would agree with Zoyd, that none of the products use guesswork. But if that term applies to any of the products then it applies to all of the products because we all use interpolation to fill in the holes.

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post #94 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

No Lightspace measures the raw perfomance of 4913 points.

... and CalMAN measures only a few hundred of all 4913 points ... That might be enough for a linear display, but not for a non-linear.

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
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post #95 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

... and CalMAN measures only a few hundred of all 4913 points ... That might be enough for a linear display, but not for a non-linear.

Wrong CalMAN can measure some or all of the 4913 points those are all options. If you think your display is so non-linear that only a full 17^3 can fix it then use a full 17^3. But in our testing we have not found such a display. And why would you use such a non-linear display in the first place for color critical work, that is a bit non productive. And what if this non-linear display was that bad then you may have to go with a 33^3 or even higher. What is the say: You can’t polish a t**d.

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post #96 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

... and CalMAN measures only a few hundred of all 4913 points ... That might be enough for a linear display, but not for a non-linear.

Our results show differently. Even Mr. Shaw states that a radiance does an exceptional job if it's 125 points are dead on.

If you look at what happens when we run a 700 point calibration in our product, depending on the display that can mean 3000 readings or as little as 2000. Those 3000 readings aren't guess work, but additional data that goes into our algorithms.

Which is why the number of readings per point goes down as the number of points goes up. More data means more accurate predictions.

The number of points and location of those points are something that we believe can continued to be refined to improve both speed and performance.

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post #97 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Wrong CalMAN can measure some or all of the 4913 points those are all options.

Sorry, but I have no time to wait about 10 hours for a full 4913 point calibration. I will also need more than one of that calibrations. Every calibration will last further 10 hours. Also my plasma tv will shift too much within this 10 hours.

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
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post #98 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

Sorry, but I have no time to wait about 10 hours for a full 4913 point calibration. I will also need more than one of that calibrations. Every calibration will last further 10 hours. Also my plasma tv will shift too much within this 10 hours.

So your Plasma is so non-linear that a 17 WRGBCMY + 9^3 can't fix it? Well if that is the case than lucky you have choices. And since we are in the LS thread I would use LS for this so non-linear device. But I would bet if you ran an advanced test suite on even using a 17^3 it still does not fix it. Yes it will be closer but not fixed.

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post #99 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

Sorry, but I have no time to wait about 10 hours for a full 4913 point calibration. I will also need more than one of that calibrations. Every calibration will last further 10 hours. Also my plasma tv will shift too much within this 10 hours.

And we never said you should, just that you could.

But we have run 17^3 calibrations, and compared the result to our paired down cubes and found the results to be within a 1/2 a dE.

That is why we advocate running a 17x6 cube as our standard, that should finish in well under an hour and give you nearly identical results to running the larger cubes. Our 17x9 takes takes about 3/4 the time of a 17^3 profile, and I would say produces comparable if not better results. If you run our 17^3 calibration (which can take 7000-8000 readings), the end result is that every single point is now calibrated to within 0.5 dE of it's target (or the screens capability). I don't believe the same can be said of lightspace.

No one I've seen has gone back over a lightspace cube with CalMAN and measured all 4000 points to verify the absolute avg/max error for it's results.

They are different approaches that have different strengths and weaknesses, but to dismiss one method or the other as mere guesswork is a statement ignorant of the amount and type of calculations going on inside these products.

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post #100 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 11:51 AM
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If you run our 17^3 calibration (which can take 7000-8000 readings), the end result is that every single point is now calibrated to within 0.5 dE of it's target (or the screens capability).

How will you know about it ? Have you ever re-read ALL 4913 points AFTER CalMAN has calibrated it ? The screen must be absolutely rock-stable and very linear so you can be sure, that one point doesn't interfere with another point.

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
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post #101 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

How will you know about it ? Have you ever re-read ALL 4913 points AFTER CalMAN has calibrated it ? The screen must be absolutely rock-stable and very linear so you can be sure, that one point doesn't interfere with another point.

So you are saying at some point the display has drifted to the point where you can no longer trust the result you started with? All the more reason to run the most efficient process you can.

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post #102 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

How will you know about it ? Have you ever re-read ALL 4913 points AFTER CalMAN has calibrated it ? The screen must be absolutely rock-stable and very linear so you can be sure, that one point doesn't interfere with another point.

We absolutely do re-read all the points after calibration as part of our development process. We are presenting a product to a professional market that we expect to scrutinize every detail of our product. Not only that but our product produces all the metrics required to carve up every aspect of display performance at densities that weren't previously available.

What you said about the display being rock solid stable is true, that is something you have to accept as part of the performance goals you are trying to achieve.

We haven't even gone into screen uniformity. Most of the displays we've tested are at least a dE of 3 from one area to the center. We are relentlessly trying to grind aways a few tenths of a dE here and there, but it is important to stay aware of the big picture and the limitations of the hardware involved.

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post #103 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

How will you know about it ? Have you ever re-read ALL 4913 points AFTER CalMAN has calibrated it ? The screen must be absolutely rock-stable and very linear so you can be sure, that one point doesn't interfere with another point.

Yes we do. We have reference displays in controlled environments for testing. They have very stable backlights are properly warmed up, run for hours if not days at a time. We have the CS-2000 to double check our work from a C6 or K10. We have advanced modeling software where we can take all the measured values from a 17^3 or higher and run different processes and algorithms on them to see were errors start to creep in. This is just not a new idea we started with and one day decided to release product. A lot of science, process and research has went into this. We were told 3 years ago at HPA and NAB the one thing everyone needed was a more efficient way to generate cubes. So we took this challenge and came up with a solution.

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post #104 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 12:16 PM
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Can someone walk me through which Lightspace modules I need, and which would be useful, to calibrate FP's and plasma displays using an I1 pro as a meter and an eeColor box? From what I gather from the website, the "Home Cinema Calibration" would be the minimum set. Now for the extra's.

How should I generate test patterns? I understand Lightspace does not support my QD 780 signal generator. So I could I use Tedd's "automated" disk, or use my laptop to generate test patterns. If I use my laptop, should I purchase Spacematch DCM, or is it included in the home cinema package?

Is there a tool to investigate the lut generated by lightspace? I understand LightSpace CMS - LUT Manipulation lets you see and manipulate the LUT. Does the home cinema package include this?

Thanks

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post #105 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by work permit View Post

From what I gather from the website, the "Home Cinema Calibration" would be the minimum set.

Yes.
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How should I generate test patterns? I understand Lightspace does not support my QD 780 signal generator. So I could I use Tedd's "automated" disk, or use my laptop to generate test patterns. If I use my laptop, should I purchase Spacematch DCM, or is it included in the home cinema package?

Spacematch is not included in LS. Ask Steve for a license wink.gif But you don't urgently need SpaceMatch, you can also "do it manually".
Quote:
Is there a tool to investigate the lut generated by lightspace? I understand LightSpace CMS - LUT Manipulation lets you see and manipulate the LUT. Does the home cinema package include this?

You can verify the complete LUT after generating it via LS using a Quick Profile / full LUT verification.

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
Sound: Yamaha RX-V2067
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post #106 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

So you are saying at some point the display has drifted to the point where you can no longer trust the result you started with? All the more reason to run the most efficient process you can.

Efficiency?

In LightSpace, with my K10-A, I just measured a 17 point profile in an hour and 17 minutes. From that profile any kind of LUT desirable can be made in seconds. With no LUT manipulation (which makes it even better) I ran a Quick Profile through the LUT in the software, made an additional LUT from it, and here is what the TV will actually be able to display.



I can use the profile to produce any number of LUTs at the Gamma of my choice any time in the future - in seconds

Professional software + professional meter = professional results

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post #107 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by work permit View Post

From what I gather from the website, the "Home Cinema Calibration" would be the minimum set.

You can buy the software at a discount through me. Also the eeBoxes.

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post #108 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 03:32 PM
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Thank you both for your responses.

By "do it manually", do you mean using a calibration disk and stepping through each color pattern? For me, that would get pretty old pretty fast, and so I was interested in a more "automated" setup. I never had a good experience using a laptop as a color pattern generator. From reading the documentation on spacematch, it appears to resolve some of the issues I've had in the past, specifically with the windows color management interfering with the generator. Does spacematch allow for custom refresh rates (ie 1080p/24)?

Are there any other goodies to get, and issues I should be aware of?

Alex
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post #109 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 03:40 PM
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As a non techy person I am a little confused by some of the previous posts.

I feel as though we are attempting to calibrate a Display before it changes its output.

When I first started to calibrate the question used to be how often should I calibrate, the answer was usually at least in weeks.
It would seem that Displays are a moving target these days and stability lasts for only a short time so warm up your display for at least an hour then measure it before its output changes.

A bit like measuring my weight to 0.001 of a pound, very accurate at the time but how useful are the decimal points? .

Is the software race really looking for a target that can match its capabilities?

Don't get me wrong, it is admirable that the software can do these things and accuracy can be discussed this way but when we have Displays that are designed with human eye accuracy in mind rather than accuracy of individual points then surely we are chasing academic targets.

Just an opinion and no criticism of any of the excellent products that offer such fantastic accuracy.
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post #110 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

As a non techy person I am a little confused by some of the previous posts.

I feel as though we are attempting to calibrate a Display before it changes its output.

When I first started to calibrate the question used to be how often should I calibrate, the answer was usually at least in weeks.
It would seem that Displays are a moving target these days and stability lasts for only a short time so warm up your display for at least an hour then measure it before its output changes.

A bit like measuring my weight to 0.001 of a pound, very accurate at the time but how useful are the decimal points? .

Is the software race really looking for a target that can match its capabilities?

Don't get me wrong, it is admirable that the software can do these things and accuracy can be discussed this way but when we have Displays that are designed with human eye accuracy in mind rather than accuracy of individual points then surely we are chasing academic targets.

Just an opinion and no criticism of any of the excellent products that offer such fantastic accuracy.

There's the concept of "error budget". If we can get the display dialed into and error of, say, .5 dE then it can drift 2.5 dE before the error becomes even remotely perceptible. Or, the input material can be off by 2.5 dE. Or, a combination of factors can be off that far. So, yes, it may seem we're chasing numbers. But there is some method to the madness. And, if you don't want to chase those numbers, you don't have to. Set your dE to 3 or whatever you can get away with with your vision and let it go at that.

BTW, calibrating every few weeks is much more often than generally necessary in the home market, even for UHP lamp based projectors.
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post #111 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by work permit View Post

By "do it manually", do you mean using a calibration disk and stepping through each color pattern?

No. I thought of SpaceMatch.
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For me, that would get pretty old pretty fast, and so I was interested in a more "automated" setup.

I am using my Lumagen Radiance XE as test pattern generator. But you can also use TEDs disc or your laptop.
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I never had a good experience using a laptop as a color pattern generator.

I have checked both: my MacBook as pattern generator and also the Radiance. I couldn't see any issues.
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From reading the documentation on spacematch, it appears to resolve some of the issues I've had in the past, specifically with the windows color management interfering with the generator.

Yes, it's the easiest way to use SpaceMatch for that. But I am using SpaceMatch especially as a LUT holder for my MacBook.

Sources: Panasonic BDT-110, Toshiba HD-XE-1, Vantage VT-1S
Video processing: Lumagen Radiance 2041
Calibration: Full LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5 Business Pro, Chroma Pure
Probes: X-Rite EODIS3 / C6 / Chroma 5 / i1 pro 2
Targets: JVC-X500, TX-P65VTW60
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post #112 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post

There's the concept of "error budget". If we can get the display dialed into and error of, say, .5 dE then it can drift 2.5 dE before the error becomes even remotely perceptible. Or, the input material can be off by 2.5 dE. Or, a combination of factors can be off that far. So, yes, it may seem we're chasing numbers. But there is some method to the madness. And, if you don't want to chase those numbers, you don't have to. Set your dE to 3 or whatever you can get away with with your vision and let it go at that.

BTW, calibrating every few weeks is much more often than generally necessary in the home market, even for UHP lamp based projectors.

I agree that it is important to ensure that calibration is not only 'within limits' but also not 'skewed' away from the optimum but I am saying that the target centre of this correctness is a 'moving target.in itself.
This is because we do not calibrate to the human eyes capabilities but to the capability of the meter and its software.

Presumably dE values measure the amount of skew so it is important to minimise this value as you point out but when the target device varies as much as you suggest measuring to exact figures is surely a temporary achievement and perhaps we should examine individual Display variation over time rather than measure accurately?
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post #113 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 04:45 PM
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I agree that it is important to ensure that calibration is not only 'within limits' but also not 'skewed' away from the optimum but I am saying that the target centre of this correctness is a 'moving target.in itself.
This is because we do not calibrate to the human eyes capabilities but to the capability of the meter and its software.

Presumably dE values measure the amount of skew so it is important to minimise this value as you point out but when the target device varies as much as you suggest measuring to exact figures is surely a temporary achievement and perhaps we should examine individual Display variation over time rather than measure accurately?

I think the amount of drift here is likely being exaggerated a bit. The amount of drift even over several hours may take a dE of 0.2 and move it to 1.5. But when you turn it back on it might be 0.8, and then warm up to 0.6. It's not as if the display constantly floats further away from the calibrated values. It's not as if you start with a dE of 5 calibrated it to 0.3 and by the end of the day it's back to a dE of 8.

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post #114 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 05:02 PM
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I think the amount of drift here is likely being exaggerated a bit. The amount of drift even over several hours may take a dE of 0.2 and move it to 1.5. But when you turn it back on it might be 0.8, and then warm up to 0.6. It's not as if the display constantly floats further away from the calibrated values. It's not as if you start with a dE of 5 calibrated it to 0.3 and by the end of the day it's back to a dE of 8.

I'm sure you are correct Joel so unless you are a Professional calibrator why the emphasis on time to make an accurate calibration?
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post #115 of 253 Old 03-29-2013, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

I'm sure you are correct Joel so unless you are a Professional calibrator why the emphasis on time to make an accurate calibration?

Our emphasis for cubes, is for the professional markets.

In post productions studios, when a room is being calibrated it's not making money.

Joel Barsotti
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post #116 of 253 Old 03-30-2013, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Nudgiator View Post

Sorry, but I have no time to wait about 10 hours for a full 4913 point calibration. I will also need more than one of that calibrations. Every calibration will last further 10 hours. Also my plasma tv will shift too much within this 10 hours.

The problem with CalMAN approach (generally that type of method) of multi measure and realtime correct each color point is that each correction interacts to other color points also. Whats why the final calibrated results after performing an AutoCAL is different with the results of re-measuring again the same display exact after the end of the AutoCAL.

If you compare that 2 reports you will notice differencies.

This is a known and reported issue that CalMAN's AutoCAL proccess that users have already reported, it's not something new.


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post #117 of 253 Old 03-30-2013, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by work permit View Post

How should I generate test patterns? I understand Lightspace does not support my QD 780 signal generator. So I could I use Tedd's "automated" disk, or use my laptop to generate test patterns.

Generally the 1D LUT or 3D Cube calibration using the Blu-Ray as a Source is more accurate that any pattern generator of any price range because All Blu-Ray Players Outputs are different and not so accurate as we know.

For Example, as we all know currently the OPPO Blu-Ray Players are the Most Reference Players right now, but see that comparison someone has run using your QD 780 Singal Generator vs. OPPO-BDP-105 & BDP-103.

http://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?6671-【訊源】OPPO-BDP-105-BDP-103-儀器實測分析

Calibrations using the Ted's LightSpace Calibration Disk (for 3D LUT with LightSpace only) or AVSHD/GDC/etc (for 1D LUT with CalMAN/ChromaPure/HCFR) will fix problems that players are introducing.


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post #118 of 253 Old 03-30-2013, 03:28 AM
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^^^^

Ted what settings are they using in the oppo's, are they using source direct, RGB,4:2:2, 4:4:4, ect?
Can't read Chinese.

ss

"Don't worry be happy"

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post #119 of 253 Old 03-30-2013, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

^^^^

Ted what settings are they using in the oppo's, are they using source direct, RGB,4:2:2, 4:4:4, ect?
Can't read Chinese.

ss

The same Output.... Do you think someone who has bought QD 780 don't know how to setup a comparison?


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post #120 of 253 Old 03-30-2013, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

The same Output.... Do you think someone who has bought QD 780 don't know how to setup a comparison?

I think his ? may have to do with which output and color space was used for the test in that the 103 has color upsampling problems for output on HDMI 2 especially 422. Some displays may have issues with 422 from HDMI 1. These issues could be reflected in the results.
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