ee/ColorBox, LightSpace, and 3D LUT Calibration - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 253 Old 03-03-2013, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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The ColorBox





Call them what you will, they're both the same except for the faceplates and the pre installed LUTs.

The eeBox is the inexpensive alternative for 3D LUT processing which produces accurate pictures for both home theater and professional use. LUTs can be made with either LightSpace or CalMAN software.

What they do:
1. Hold and process 6 separate 3D LUTs
2. 1 HDMI In, 1 HDMI Out
3. Passes side-by-side and top-bottom 3D

What they don't do:
1. Power on/off is not available with the remote control and must be operated with the power switch on the back of the Box.
2. No USB 3.0 available for Uploading LUTs - USB 2.0 OK
3. Does not pass frame packing 3D

Owners Manual, general usage, factory LUTs - Truvue eeColor Processor User Guide (Standalone processor)_AVS.pdf 442k .pdf file

The Preloaded LUTs are interesting - think Darblet - eeColor2010.pdf 276k .pdf file

2 year factory warranty - TruVue_Warranty_V2.pdf 49k .pdf file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Truvue eeColor Processor User Guide (Standalone processor)_AVS.pdf (441.9 KB, 40 views)
File Type: pdf eeColor2010.pdf (276.4 KB, 40 views)
File Type: pdf TruVue_Warranty_V2.pdf (49.5 KB, 12 views)

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post #2 of 253 Old 03-03-2013, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Loading LUTs

With CalMAN Enthusiast, LUTs are loaded directly to the eeBox during the calibration process.

With LightSpace, CalMAN Ultimate, or Studio, 65 point (65x65x65) LUTs are saved on your computer hard drive and uploaded to the eeBox using TruVue Application software.

Download the Entertainment Experience TruVue Application Software Version 2 here.

A description of the process is found here on the Light Illusion website.

Loading Unity LUTs





Loading Calibration LUTs


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post #3 of 253 Old 03-03-2013, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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On Screen Display (OSD)

Every time you push a button on the ee remote control, an on screen display appears in the lower right hand corner of the display. The factory OSDs are variations on this one:



In following the procedures listed on the Light Illusion site, the step involving loading Unity LUTs results in all 6 LUTs displaying the following OSD.



Obviously these don't identify which LUT is active so they need to be replaced.

If you're using LightSpace and following the LightSpace procedure you will be loading the provided OSDs.
Here they are: LightSpace OSDs.zip 8k .zip file


If you're using CalMAN Ultimate or Studio and produce loadable LUTs with the Cube Generator you can use generic OSDs I created.
Here they are: Buzz Created Generic ee OSDs.zip 4k .zip file


If you're using CalMAN Enthusiast you'll need to replace the OSDs located at C:/Program Files (x86)/Entertainment Experience LLC/TruVue eeColor Application/Data/3dtable/calibration/unity with my generics. That way, when the LUTs are written directly to the eeBox from CalMAN, the OSDs remain in place.



OR....

Make Your Own Custom OSDs like these:



It's easy as long as you follow the procedures in this tutorial - OSD Change Procedure.pdf 538k .pdf file
Attached Files
File Type: zip LightSpace OSDs.zip (8.4 KB, 14 views)
File Type: zip Buzz Created Generic ee OSDs.zip (3.5 KB, 21 views)
File Type: pdf OSD Change Procedure.pdf (538.3 KB, 37 views)

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post #4 of 253 Old 03-03-2013, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Detailed LightSpace procedures are found on the Light Illusion web site but here is basically the way it works, and this with a most uncooperative display.

The first thing as in all calibration is to turn off all the auto processing possible, set black, set white, and do 2 point or perhaps a 10 point GS calibration.

Then run an 81 point Quick Profile that checks display characteristics at a number of luminance levels. That foldback you see in green is unwanted display processing that cannot be defeated and poses a challenge for the LUT. It also shows you gamma response and RGB balance.





Based on this QP it is obvious that 17 point (4913 color points) Display Characterization will be required. Once that is accomplished, about an hour and thirty minutes with my Klein K10-A in the closed loop mode, a 65x65x65 LUT is made.



In the Convert Color Space module:
1. Choose a descriptive name for the LUT
2. Choose Rec.709 normally. This puts the correct xy coordinates into the boxes below and automatically selects 2.2 gamma.
3. If you want 2.22, 2.1, 2.4, whatever, type it in and the Rec.709 Color Space box changes to Custom but the Rec.709 xy coordinates remain unchanged.
4. Select the Display Characterization you ran from the drop down box
5. Choose Peak Luma or Peak Chroma as the basis for the LUT.
6. Click on Create New and the LUT is produced in seconds.

The 3D LUT can be viewed in a 2D rendition that makes is easy to see if any work needs be accomplished.

The graph below is the 2D view of the 3D LUT created for the difficult display doing all the processing. That is quite evident in the higher luminances. It will always fight the LUT but not to the dE degree that can be visually ascertained.



The bottom end is messy. This can be due to display processing, non defeatable colorization in a back light, probe error, etc., but LightSpace has the tools to fix this. The graph below is the result of some bottom end manipulation.



After that, LightSpace VideoScales the LUT and cuts it off at 16 for the LUT to be correct for the eeBox.



The final step for LightSpace is to choose File > Export which brings up a box in which to choose the type of LUT, in this case 3D eeColor65. Pick a folder on your hard drive and LightSpace sends it there.

The LUT can now be uploaded to the eeBox. The process from beginning of the Display Characterization conversion to being ready to upload the Calibration LUT to the eeBox takes less than ten minutes.

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post #5 of 253 Old 03-03-2013, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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reserved CalMAN

Edit: A separate thread will be started for the eeBox and CalMAN -- too much contention on this thread.

Edit: separate CalMAN started here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1462960/eecolor-processor-calman-3d-luts

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post #6 of 253 Old 03-04-2013, 12:29 PM
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hey Buzz - Can these guys take 3dLUTs created by the dispcalGUI package? The available formats from this profiling program are:

1. Kodak look manager (.3dl)
2. IRIDAS (.cube)
3. Sony Image works (.spi3d)

LUT sizes available are 17x17x17, 24x24x24, or 32x32x32

thx
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post #7 of 253 Old 03-04-2013, 01:00 PM
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the eeColor box has it's own format and its size is 65x65x65...

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post #8 of 253 Old 03-04-2013, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

the eeColor box has it's own format and its size is 65x65x65...

actually 64x64x64, it doesn't include the points required to calibrate the maximum 1023 value. Not a huge deal for video, but makes the product completely unusable for PC levels.

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post #9 of 253 Old 03-04-2013, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
actually 64x64x64, it doesn't include a the points required to calibrate the maximum 1023 value. Not a huge deal for video, but makes the product completely unusable for PC levels.

We use a 65x65x65 formats with LightSpace and the eeColor LUT box, and the results are far from 'unusable' for PC (data) formats.

Actually works very well biggrin.gif

Steve

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post #10 of 253 Old 03-04-2013, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
hey Buzz - Can these guys take 3dLUTs created by the dispcalGUI package? The available formats from this profiling program are:

1. Kodak look manager (.3dl)
2. IRIDAS (.cube)
3. Sony Image works (.spi3d)

LUT sizes available are 17x17x17, 24x24x24, or 32x32x32
Not sure if it would work for you, but the Main Component of LightSpace (which can be obtained on its own) can convert from just about any LUT format to any other LUT format.

Steve

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post #11 of 253 Old 03-04-2013, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

We use a 65x65x65 formats with LightSpace and the eeColor LUT box, and the results are far from 'unusable' for PC (data) formats.

Actually works very well biggrin.gif

Steve

How do you overcome the fact that the 255/1023 points are anchored in hardware and are therefore nonadjustable?

Or are you simply trying to disparage a competitor without due diligence?

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post #12 of 253 Old 03-04-2013, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys, the intention of the thread is not to instigate a food fight. My two LightSpace and CalMAN reserved posts above are for procedures more than for results.

1. I've been working with Light Illusion for two years to try and get affordable 3D LUTs available for consumer home theaters, whatever the hardware. It is happening.
2. A year and a half ago I was SpectraCal's first customer to buy the eeColor Processor. I'd be happy to post a picture of Derek Smith making the presentation to me in Indianapolis at CEDIA 2011. smile.gif
3. Last year I sent that Box to SpectraCal where it was converted into a SpectraCal Color Box. If there is a difference between the two units other than the face plate and the installed Unity LUTs tell me now.
4. Both LightSpace and CalMAN are writing LUTs for the eeBox. They do it differently and results vary which is the content I hope forum participants can offer. We all want to learn and we all want to make it better. I'm absolutely sure that both companies are working hard to make it right.
5. I have Entertainment Experience support and I am in frequent contact with ee's VP of Engineering. I know that Light Illusion does the same and I assume SpectraCal as well.

The bottom line is that all of us have as a goal to make 3D LUT calibration accurate, relatively painless, affordable, and universally available. I received the following (edited) from Derek Smith today and think it a large step forward in the affordability issue:

"Also if you don’t mind within the thread you started on AVS you could mention we are adding direct to software lut support for the eeColor within Enthusiast license."

3D LUTting is the future of calibration. Soon we will have versions of "ISFccc" LUT holding circuitry in our flat panels and for those of us that desire it, home consumer image fidelity previously unheard of.
.

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post #13 of 253 Old 03-04-2013, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Guys, the intention of the thread is not to instigate a food fight.

I didn't intend to start one, I was merely trying to establish one of the limitations of the hardware. But I had to correct some misinformation.

The ColorBox does have a slightly different firmware, but the hardware is the same.

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post #14 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 01:05 AM
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I reiterate: We use a 65x65x65 formats with LightSpace and the eeColor LUT box, and the results are far from 'unusable' for PC (data) formats.

That is NOT misinformation.

Steve

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"3. Last year I sent that Box to SpectraCal where it was converted into a SpectraCal Color Box. If there is a difference between the two units other than the face plate and the installed Unity LUTs tell me now.
4. Both LightSpace and CalMAN are writing LUTs for the eeBox. They do it differently and results vary which is the content I hope forum participants can offer. We all want to learn and we all want to make it better. I'm absolutely sure that both companies are working hard to make it right."

@buzzard767

Hi There,

i just asked in the spectracal forum about the support of the original eecolor LUT box and the spectracal-Lut-Box in Calman 5 Enthusiast.

The answer was, the the eecolor - lutbox isn't supported by Enthusiast, only by studio and ultimate, and can't be used, the colorbox is supported and can be used for 3d-luts.

That seems to be a different statement than yours, where you say that Calman 5 Enthusiast creates the cube and writes it into the memory of the eecolor lut-box.

I'm quite unsure now.

i know the original eecolor and the colorbox only dffer by firmware but i assumed that calman 5 enthusiast checks the firmware and won't work with the non-spectracal one.

I would love to buy the eecolor lut-box, because it resides in affordable price range for me and i can get it from the UK, instead where the spectracal colorbox is (IMHO) much overpriced for using the same hardware and it is way out of my price range. And there is no possibility to get one in Germany or from the UK anyway (at least i didn't find one dealer having the colorbox).

If you have tested calman 5 Enthusiast working with the eecolor LUT box (not colorbox) please tell so 'cause i would buy one in an instant.

Thanks
Mathias
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Most certainly the SpectraCal version of the box is very pricey.

However, looking at its intended use, I see that this was seen as being for the ''....imaging content professionals...'', now it seems it is to be aimed at a wider audience (the proposed inclusion within Enthusiast).
Perhaps economies of scale will apply and its cost will show a corresponding decrease in price?
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post #17 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

3. Does not pass frame packing 3D

Ouch, that makes it a no go.

Is this box really that old?
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post #18 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvbredow View Post

"3. Last year I sent that Box to SpectraCal where it was converted into a SpectraCal Color Box. If there is a difference between the two units other than the face plate and the installed Unity LUTs tell me now.
4. Both LightSpace and CalMAN are writing LUTs for the eeBox. They do it differently and results vary which is the content I hope forum participants can offer. We all want to learn and we all want to make it better. I'm absolutely sure that both companies are working hard to make it right."

@buzzard767

Hi There,

i just asked in the spectracal forum about the support of the original eecolor LUT box and the spectracal-Lut-Box in Calman 5 Enthusiast.

The answer was, the the eecolor - lutbox isn't supported by Enthusiast, only by studio and ultimate, and can't be used, the colorbox is supported and can be used for 3d-luts.

That seems to be a different statement than yours, where you say that Calman 5 Enthusiast creates the cube and writes it into the memory of the eecolor lut-box.

What was quoted was "Also if you don’t mind within the thread you started on AVS you could mention we are adding direct to software lut support for the eeColor within Enthusiast license."

iow the support for enthusiast is coming.

The only problem with eecolor or colorbox is they don't generate patterns for LUT or any patterns for that matter. The Radiance Mini 3D does, and that sure makes a LUT calibration fast,accurate and easy.
The draw back with the Radiance is it will only do a 125 point cube like what is in Calman. However from what the OP (buzz) says, anything over that for a display like my plasma VT50 to view HQ Blu Ray movies is over kill.
Anyway there is no question in my mind that the LUT is the bast way to calibrate for HQ source material, Calman's 5.1 enthusiast coupled with my Radiance Mini 3D, rocks. But that is not to say the user doesn't have to do anything but just push buttons. Color, Contrast, Brightness, Color temp, Gamma target, sharpness, all enchantments off, ect, along with meter profiling and placement have to be corrected by the user.The better the user can set these pre calibration settings the better the calibration will turn out.

ss .
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post #19 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

I reiterate: We use a 65x65x65 formats with LightSpace and the eeColor LUT box, and the results are far from 'unusable' for PC (data) formats.

That is NOT misinformation.

Steve

I'm sure you can create a 65 point LUT and point their software at it.

The issue I'm talking about is that the memory map for the device only has enough space per LUT for 64^3, there is literally no place in the hardware to load the last 12481 points of data, so it gets culled. The final point between 1008 and 1023 is a linear anchor to the native value.

If you remeasure the 100% luminance gamut, it is not modified.

As I mentioned above, perhaps you didn't check this for yourself, but it is very true.

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post #20 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

"Also if you don’t mind within the thread you started on AVS you could mention we are adding direct to software lut support for the eeColor within Enthusiast license.".

Yes to clarify this point. Yes I did tell Buzz we plan on enabling support for the eeColor software lut format in the CalMAN Enthusiast license. This has been a planned feature but we have not do so because of enabling licensing of specific lut formats which we are now working on.

As for the ColorBox we do update the firmware with some changes we asked for and change the serial number and the front label. The serial number change is so when we connect we know it is the modified firmware.

But in either case the raw LUT we create for the eeColor or write directly to the ColorBox is the same 262144 entries of 10 bit RGB data.

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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Yes to clarify this point. Yes I did tell Buzz we plan on enabling support for the eeColor software lut format in the CalMAN Enthusiast license. This has been a planned feature but we have not do so because of enabling licensing of specific lut formats which we are now working on.

As for the ColorBox we do update the firmware with some changes we asked for and change the serial number and the front label. The serial number change is so when we connect we know it is the modified firmware.

But in either case the raw LUT we create for the eeColor or write directly to the ColorBox is the same 262144 entries of 10 bit RGB data.


Derek,

does that mean it's possible to create a 3d-lut with the eecolor and enthusiast or not? You see i live in Germany and theres no known possibility to me to get the eecolor oder colorbox here.
The eecolor i can get in the UK, but no colorbox. With customs, shipping and taxes the colorbox may come to over 1760€ here, that would be at least 2300$. Please understand that this is too much for the typical home-user.
Is there any possibility planned to integrate the eecolor 3d-lut somehow in enthusiast? Please?
I do not know any other usable and affordable solution for 3d-lut calibration.

Thanks
Mathias
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post #22 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvbredow View Post

Derek,

does that mean it's possible to create a 3d-lut with the eecolor and enthusiast or not?

Yes with our next update of CalMNA 5.1 you will be able to create a software LUT for the eeColor and then using the TruVue tools be able to load that into the eeColor.

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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Yes with our next update of CalMNA 5.1 you will be able to create a software LUT for the eeColor and then using the TruVue tools be able to load that into the eeColor.

Wonderful. Thank you. I just ordered one.

Mathias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Yes with our next update of CalMNA 5.1 you will be able to create a software LUT for the eeColor and then using the TruVue tools be able to load that into the eeColor.

Will CalMAN Enthusiast be able to characterize the display (for the eeColor) at any size (including 17x17x17 or more)?

My understanding is that CalMAN Studio and Ultimate can do this but Enthusiast is limited to a smaller size for characterization to differentiate between CalMAN's Professional Licenses and the Enthusiast versions.

Basically, will there be any difference with CalMAN's eeColor's support between Studio/Ultimate and Enthusiast?

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post #25 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Will CalMAN Enthusiast be able to characterize the display (for the eeColor) at any size (including 17x17x17 or more)?

My understanding is that CalMAN Studio and Ultimate can do this but Enthusiast is limited to a smaller size for characterization to differentiate between CalMAN's Professional Licenses and the Enthusiast versions. Basically, will there be any difference with CalMAN's eecolor's support between Studio/Ultimate and Enthusiast?

There is no size difference, right now the Enthusiast product and the Studio/Ultimate product have the same capability for the ColorBox. The shipping defaults are the same.

CalMAN's support for the EE will use the same Virtual LUT technology we use for all of our 3D LUT generation. The only difference will be that we won't write directly to the box, but simply output the LUT file that can be loaded with the EE tools.


We aren't crippling the accuracy, speed, or customization capabilities for the enthusiast product, only the formats of LUTs that can be exported.

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post #26 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Will CalMAN Enthusiast be able to characterize the display (for the eeColor) at any size (including 17x17x17 or more)?
...

I didn't think CalMAN operated in a two step (characterize/calibrate) process. I thought it iterates measurement and setting until it likes what the meter sees. Am I wrong on this? It would be great if CalMAN could store a display characterization and then derive calibrations from that.

Though I gotta say... I just downloaded and ran CalMAN 5.1 and it's so fast I guess it doesn't really matter. A 21 pt grayscale was done in under 3 minutes and the LUT calibration was done in 34 minutes.
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post #27 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 02:03 PM
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they are writing (to disc) the entire LUT file (their support for the eeColor 64^3 ) but it's important what you are characterizing the display at (display pattern / take reading at that point) - the points beyond this characterization size are interpolated..

I like to use 10^3 but you do want the option to go up to 17^3 (or more?) for characterization IMO. heck, I'll have to look, what is the size limit for characterization...

So, if Enthusiast can do any size up to 17^3 for the characterization process, that's a win for Enthusiast Uses since it's $1000-$2100 less than what's available now.

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post #28 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 02:04 PM
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We use a Virtual LUT to perform the calibration and when completed we can either write the resulting data directly to the device or output a file in any of our support LUT formats.

We do also create a CLGFX file which has all the characterization of the display, but we don't currently provide a way to create a LUT from that data for a different target colorspace. But that is something we'll be looking at in the future.

Our goal with 5.1 was to make it smoking fast and highly accurate. That way if you need to target a second colorspace creating additional LUTs will still be faster than taking 4000+ readings.

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post #29 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

they are writing (t disc) the entire LUT file (their support for the eeColor 64^3 ) but it's important what you are characterizing the display at (display pattern / take reading at that point) - the points beyond this characterization size are interpolated..

I like to use 10^3 but you do want the option to go up to 17^3 (or more?) for characterization IMO. heck, I'll have to look, what is the size limit for characterization...

So, if Enthusiast can do any size up to 17^3 for the characterization process, that's a win for Enthusiast Uses since it's $1000-$2100 less than what's available now.

You could run a 33^3 if you wanted.

We suggest using a sparse interior cube, with higher density luminance ramps (default is 17x6), as this offers a great balance of speed and accuracy.

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post #30 of 253 Old 03-05-2013, 02:43 PM
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I am not going to get involved in this discussion further as there really is no point.
We work very closely with all our partners - and the way we do things is often very different.

But...
Quote:
We suggest using a sparse interior cube, with higher density luminance ramps (default is 17x6), as this offers a great balance of speed and accuracy.

That I do have to totally disagree with.

The interior of the cube is every bit as critical as the grey scale - more so in actuality as 'real' images rarely have a grey scale within them.
Think about where critical skin tones reside for example.
No where near a grey scale!

As a result, to have accurate calibration that works with real images, not just a grey scale tests and primary colour point based reports, it is hyper critical the interior of the cube is profiled every bit as accurately as all other points.

That is why all professional calibration uses a 17 point cube profiling process.

A 6x6x6 cube with a higher grey scale count will never, ever be as accurate on real images, or when re-profiled with a fully populated profile cube of 17x17x17.

It is as simple as that - you MUST profile the interior of the cube as accurately as every other colour point - or grey scale.

Steve

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