eeColor Processor - CalMAN - 3D LUTs - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 532 Old 02-24-2014, 06:17 AM
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hehe typical i got 3 laptops here neither with nvidia. I will have to buy a cheap laptop with nvidia, however it would be nice to know if it output correctly

I am in contact with blackmagic to see if the capture device is 100% transparent.

except the low light output was the calibration ok?
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post #362 of 532 Old 04-04-2014, 04:56 AM
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For those of us who are using an i1d3, with Calman on a plasma display....what are the recommended read times and delay for the panel (plasma) to settle down before the next read? Do you use the low light handler and if so, what settings there?

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post #363 of 532 Old 04-04-2014, 05:50 AM
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Jim, this is not based on large 3D LUT work, but this is what I've found with the i1D3 on plasmas.

.5 second is somewhat unstable and is OK for rough work; 1 second is pretty repeatable and good for general purpose work; 1.5 seconds is super stable. I only engage LLH if I am taking black level measurements, but with a large LUT you might want to since it'll be measuring below 5%. Maybe LLH with a 1 fL trigger and 2 second exposure would be a good starting point.

As for pattern delay I like to give the display at least .5 seconds to stabilize. With my Video Forge that means a 1.3 second pattern delay since it takes it .7 or .8 to draw the pattern.
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post #364 of 532 Old 04-04-2014, 05:58 AM
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I have found the following give good results when using the i1d3 on my plasma:

Custom set-up
16 SMPTE extended luminance steps
9 optimized (inner cube)

Probe set-up
Integration time: 0.5 seconds
Low light handler on, 2 seconds @8 cd/m^2 cross-over.

Source delay: 0.5 seconds
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post #365 of 532 Old 04-04-2014, 08:25 AM
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Thanks guys.

Shaving a few minutes off here or there helps.

At the end of the read adjust verify section of the LUTs process, I couldn't tell if my computer hung up or if it was processing data. It eventually moved on but I'd like to know if this is normal or if indeed that it was something else that I need to explore.

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post #366 of 532 Old 04-04-2014, 09:36 AM
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Hi Jim, you have to run some test using various meter settings to find the best performance for speed setting for your current display you will measure.

Just display a 100% White, 75% Gray, 30% Gray Patches and measure them in continuous mode and check the repeatability and measuring time per reading using 0.5 sec / 1sec / 1.5 sec intergration time readings.

Later do the same by using some low luminance patches 5%-10% Gray, Red, Green, Blue and check 2 sec setting there also.

As for patch delay I choose 0.5sec of delay before each meter read.

If you don't have time to run these test, for CalMAN and id3, use 1.5sec and for LHH 2 sec for readings below 20-35 cdm/2 (it has to do with the black level performance of measured display)
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post #367 of 532 Old 04-04-2014, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Thanks guys.

Shaving a few minutes off here or there helps.

At the end of the read adjust verify section of the LUTs process, I couldn't tell if my computer hung up or if it was processing data. It eventually moved on but I'd like to know if this is normal or if indeed that it was something else that I need to explore.

It's processing data.

as long as the bar is sliding along, it's still working.

In the next update we are much more explicit about what is happening in the status box.
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post #368 of 532 Old 04-06-2014, 06:35 PM
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In some post from March of last year, someone posted about using the eecolor app to replace the original settings in the eecolor box with unity gain. Someone from Spectracal said that it wasn't the same.

I also read in some other post about not using Calman to apply unity gain at the begging of the workflow.

My question is what is the latest recommended method of applying unity gain tograyscale and 3d cube just prior to running a cube calibration when using Calman and a eecolor box?

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post #369 of 532 Old 04-06-2014, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

In some post from March of last year, someone posted about using the eecolor app to replace the original settings in the eecolor box with unity gain. Someone from Spectracal said that it wasn't the same.

I also read in some other post about not using Calman to apply unity gain at the begging of the workflow.

My question is what is the latest recommended method of applying unity gain tograyscale and 3d cube just prior to running a cube calibration when using Calman and a eecolor box?

Jim here is a link to LightSpace's LUT's
http://www.lightillusion.com/eecolor_manual.html

LUT 1: Unity
LUT 2: Gamma Lift
LUT 3: Sepia
LUT 4: De-Sat Shadows
LUT 5: Inv. S Shape
LUT 6: Film Look

As you can see LUT 1 is Unity.

With Calman it auto maps the eecolor to video level so you don't use any video scaling with CM. The reason why LS uses video scaling is because it creates a Profile of the calibration rather than a LUT. By doing it the way LS does, you can do what ever you want to the profile after LS has done running whatever patch set you are using, then it will make the LUT in about 5 sec. from the completed profile.

Also don't forget to tell CM what eecolor LUT slot (1 thru 6) that CM auto sends to eecolor.

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post #370 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

In some post from March of last year, someone posted about using the eecolor app to replace the original settings in the eecolor box with unity gain. Someone from Spectracal said that it wasn't the same.

I also read in some other post about not using Calman to apply unity gain at the begging of the workflow.

My question is what is the latest recommended method of applying unity gain tograyscale and 3d cube just prior to running a cube calibration when using Calman and a eecolor box?

Hello Jim, the way I saw to you using eeColor Application is loading UNITY to all memory slots in both 1D + 3D Tables.

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post #371 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 02:40 AM
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As a Novice the terminology and processing used in 3D LUT's has been for me difficult to put it mildly.
Forgive my very basic knowledge on the subject but many of us are not experts but are interested in the technology.

In layman's terms my understanding (still open for correction of course) is that 'Unity' equates to a 'pass through' or 'zeroed' slot allowing the Display to show its 'as is' condition.without any changes.
There are differences in the way the two software's achieve their version of the 3D LUT as follows:

For Calman this means we can choose any slot from 1 to 6 in the Box then the software will do all the work to change that particular slot first of all to 'Unity' (uncalibrated) then doing a meter calibration then automatically processing to produce an LUT that is finally uploaded to the Box as a complete 3D calibration all done as a single process by the software .

LS works differently to achieve a similar 3D LUT in that it requires that an unchanged (Unity) slot will be chosen to perform its meter calibration, so usually #1 slot is kept open and always remains available for that purpose. Any slot # can be used as Unity of course but reserving it for LS calibration is a wise precaution.
Once a profile is generated via the meter calibration process on the computer an LUT is generated from this which is then uploaded as a separate process to a slot on the Box avoiding #1 of course which stays as Unity for future use.

Sorry if this is obvious to everyone but I have to say I initially completely misunderstood both processes and have to thank Joel and Ted for their patient education.
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post #372 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

As a Novice the terminology and processing used in 3D LUT's has been for me difficult to put it mildly.
Forgive my very basic knowledge on the subject but many of us are not experts but are interested in the technology.

In layman's terms my understanding (still open for correction of course) is that 'Unity' equates to a 'pass through' or 'zeroed' slot allowing the Display to show its 'as is' condition.without any changes.
There are differences in the way the two software's achieve their version of the 3D LUT as follows:

For Calman this means we can choose any slot from 1 to 6 in the Box then the software will do all the work to change that particular slot first of all to 'Unity' (uncalibrated) then doing a meter calibration then automatically processing to produce an LUT that is finally uploaded to the Box as a complete 3D calibration all done as a single process by the software .

LS works differently to achieve a similar 3D LUT in that it requires that an unchanged (Unity) slot will be chosen to perform its meter calibration, so usually #1 slot is kept open and always remains available for that purpose. Any slot # can be used as Unity of course but reserving it for LS calibration is a wise precaution.
Once a profile is generated via the meter calibration process on the computer an LUT is generated from this which is then uploaded as a separate process to a slot on the Box avoiding #1 of course which stays as Unity for future use.

Sorry if this is obvious to everyone but I have to say I initially completely misunderstood both processes and have to thank Joel and Ted for their patient education.

all good, with these corrections:

LS does not require a slot. LS does not even know about the eeColor. Process is simple:

1) U profile a display - naturally you should do this with a Unity LUT active, but you could also profile with NO LUT active (slight difference)

2) u create a LUT from that profile which in case of LS can be any of the 50 different LUT formats, in this scenario we choose the eeColor LUT format

3) you upload the LUT to the eeColor via the TrueVue application. When doing that you place the LUT into a designated folder, naming the LUT file a specific way and that decides which slot it will be uploaded in. So you are in full control.

* you can also use the TruVue app to reset the eeColor or change the order or the LUT's by moving them around and uploading them again.

** I think w/ CM you are now also able to export the LUT to your PC, which would then allow you to do step 3. So you're in full control. Please correct if this is not possible with CM.

- Mike

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post #373 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

In layman's terms my understanding (still open for correction of course) is that 'Unity' equates to a 'pass through' or 'zeroed' slot allowing the Display to show its 'as is' condition.without any changes.

Unity means ''no changes' to input output, so it's 1:1 input.

In case someone has eeColor + My Disk + LightSpace and want to calibrate the whole video chain, the correct step is to load a Unity LUT in eeColor Active Memory slot while is taking the profiling measurements, by doing this the correction LUT will fix all the possible problems that your blu-ray player or eeColor colorspace conversions etc.
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post #374 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 03:48 AM
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Thanks for reply Mike.

Hadn't thought of it before your post but I suppose Unity slot is there to get as close as we can to conditions without the box in circuit, so its not that surprising its presence is unnecessary. for LS which splits the processing.
Not sure how valuable that is though?


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post #375 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Thanks for reply Mike.
Hadn't thought of it before your post but I suppose Unity slot is there to get as close as we can to conditions without the box in circuit, so its not that surprising its presence is unnecessary. for LS which splits the processing.
Not sure how valuable that is though?
.

no, the Unity LUT still activates LUT processing (but without any offsets) so if there is distortion by the LUT box it will be visible here and hopefully accommodated by the LUT following the profile...

the other option I mentioned (as an example) bypasses everything.

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post #376 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

no, the Unity LUT still activates LUT processing (but without any offsets) so if there is distortion by the LUT box it will be visible here and hopefully accommodated by the LUT following the profile...

the other option I mentioned (as an example) bypasses everything.

So the one with Box permanently in circuit is more accurate because it measures all changes including accidental ones caused by its presence ?
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post #377 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 04:19 AM
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So the one with Box permanently in circuit is more accurate because it measures all changes including accidental ones caused by its presence ?

I'm not sure what you mean with "the one with Box permanently in circuit" because you can put in any of the 6 LUT slots any kind of LUT in there... simply use the eeColor TrueVue application and upload whatever LUT's you like. It is good practice to keep one slot for a Unity LUT so that you can compare between no compensation and 65^3 compensation and that you can switch to Unity once you profile again....

so yes, when a unity LUT is active (although no offsets) the box is in "LUT processing mode" and that can on some LUT holders introduce distortion due to the signal being adjusted with the LUT's offsets which is all done in higher bit-depth so there are calculations and adjustments going on which can introduce all kinds of things when not done correctly....

the eeColor fortunately barely introduces distortion, the first gen Lumagen had a tiny bit more...

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post #378 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 04:46 AM
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Hi Mike,

My meaning was that you indicated that LS does not need a Box in circuit to obtain a profile.
You also posted that there are small differences between results obtained with box in circuit to when this is out of circuit.
My reasoning is that if the box is to be used for its 3D LUT capability it must be in circuit.
Therefore I presume that it is more accurate when used this way if it has obtained its profile with itself in circuit.

Perhaps I misunderstand your posts ?
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post #379 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Hi Mike,

My meaning was that you indicated that LS does not need a Box in circuit to obtain a profile.
You also posted that there are small differences between results obtained with box in circuit to when this is out of circuit.
My reasoning is that if the box is to be used for its 3D LUT capability it must be in circuit.
Therefore I presume that it is more accurate when used this way if it has obtained its profile with itself in circuit.

Perhaps I misunderstand your posts ?

yes, the box should be in the path and a unity LUT should be active when profiling.

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post #380 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

So the one with Box permanently in circuit is more accurate because it measures all changes including accidental ones caused by its presence ?

I think the logic that isn't explained very well is that you are not adjusting the eecolor box in real time. The adjustments are being accumulated in Calman and the end of the procedure, the corrections are processed and uploaded to the eecolor box. So if you had any data in the color box (say you didn't reset it to unity) your corrections would have been influenced by the existing corrections which would go away when calman uploads the new corrections. So for your new corrections to be accurate, you can't have preexisting data in the eecolor memory slot.

Guys, is this the way this works?

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post #381 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I think the logic that isn't explained very well is that you are not adjusting the eecolor box in real time. The adjustments are being accumulated in Calman and the end of the procedure, the corrections are processed and uploaded to the eecolor box. So if you had any data in the color box (say you didn't reset it to unity) your corrections would have been influenced by the existing corrections which would go away when calman uploads the new corrections. So for your new corrections to be accurate, you can't have preexisting data in the eecolor memory slot.

Guys, is this the way this works?

Hi Jim,

Not sure on that.

I think the eeCB hardware itself causes the small profile change even when a calibration bypass slot (UNITY) is selected.
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post #382 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Mike View Post

It is good practice to keep one slot for a Unity LUT so that you can compare between no compensation and 65^3 compensation and that you can switch to Unity once you profile again....

There is no requirement for profiling through a Unity LUT. I normally don't. Also, for LUT effectiveness comparisons to no LUT I usually choose the "eeC off" button on the ee remote control.

Quote:
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I think the logic that isn't explained very well is that you are not adjusting the eecolor box in real time. The adjustments are being accumulated in Calman and the end of the procedure, the corrections are processed and uploaded to the eecolor box. So if you had any data in the color box (say you didn't reset it to unity) your corrections would have been influenced by the existing corrections which would go away when calman uploads the new corrections. So for your new corrections to be accurate, you can't have preexisting data in the eecolor memory slot.

Guys, is this the way this works?

Pre select the ee LUT (with the ee remote control) you want CalMAN to program - Do this before starting CM. In the Display Control module, find the eeBox, make sure the same LUT is selected (the one you pre selected) and do a full DDC reset.

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post #383 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

There is no requirement for profiling through a Unity LUT. I normally don't. Also, for LUT effectiveness comparisons to no LUT I usually choose the "eeC off" button on the ee remote control.

What about the slight increase in Luminance when you use a LUT in ecolor. Its for that reason why I use a unity LUT in eecolor to calibrate..

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post #384 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 09:40 AM
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In Calman enthusiast , Color Cube workflow, in the Direct Display Control Tab.....what is the "Display Mode Selection" entry about? I only show one possibility and it reads "Output 1D LUT".


After running the smallest (fastest) cube possible (to test some settings), and reconnecting the TIVO, I don't see very much difference between eecolor off and on. There's a noticeable difference although slight with the gamma. I don't know if I left out a step or if I have to go to a much larger cube for the difference to be evident.

By the way, if you set an Accupel 5000 to 1/2 second delay, after you're in your calibration for a while, it'll start putting out the wrong pattern. I had to slow it down to 1 second delay to correct that issue.


One more question....to reduce processing time, what are you guys using for the maximum dE ? The cube I ran took about 1 3/4 hours with the default of .3 dE. This is from one of the fixed options and not the custom option.

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What about the slight increase in Luminance when you use a LUT in ecolor. Its for that reason why I use a unity LUT in eecolor to calibrate..

ss

I've seen that mentioned before but have not seen any measurements to confirm, nor can I reproduce it on my box. Unity LUT measures the same as "eeC off".
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post #386 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

What about the slight increase in Luminance when you use a LUT in ecolor. Its for that reason why I use a unity LUT in eecolor to calibrate..

ss

I've seen that mentioned before but have not seen any measurements to confirm, nor can I reproduce it on my box. Unity LUT measures the same as "eeC off".

I think what was referred to was that there is some difference between measurements of a LUT within LS compared to the same LUT loaded in an eeBox. Arguably the better way to produce a LUT is through the chain - Ted's Disc in a BD player > eeBox Unity > Display.

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post #387 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I think what was referred to was that there is some difference between measurements of a LUT within LS compared to the same LUT loaded in an eeBox. Arguably the better way to produce a LUT is through the chain - Ted's Disc in a BD player > eeBox Unity > Display.

Hi Buzz,

I am obviously missing something here so apologies for that but I cannot see a reason to exclude the eeCB because if it does affect profile results then it should be in the chain to prevent normal viewing conditions being incorrect and if it does not then there is no reason to exclude it.
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post #388 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I think what was referred to was that there is some difference between measurements of a LUT within LS compared to the same LUT loaded in an eeBox. Arguably the better way to produce a LUT is through the chain - Ted's Disc in a BD player > eeBox Unity > Display.

Hi Buzz,

I am obviously missing something here so apologies for that but I cannot see a reason to exclude the eeCB because if it does affect profile results then it should be in the chain to prevent normal viewing conditions being incorrect and if it does not then there is no reason to exclude it.

You are correct, specifically for Calman. Optional thinking is for LightSpace users (not applicable in this thread) in that the display is profiled and then LUTs can be produced for a myriad of products.

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post #389 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

You are correct, specifically for Calman. Optional thinking is for LightSpace users (not applicable in this thread) in that the display is profiled and then LUTs can be produced for a myriad of products.

Thanks Buzz,

I'm intrigued to understand the possibilities you mention but as you say this is a Calman thread.
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post #390 of 532 Old 04-07-2014, 12:47 PM
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Sure would be nice to play around with various gammas without having to rerun the cube calibration.

Is there anyway to output data from Calman and manipulate it with other software?

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
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