eeColor Processor - CalMAN - 3D LUTs - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 562 Old 03-18-2013, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You are at the mercy of the linearity of the colormetric device.

But...
The C6 is extremely linear. We've tested colorimeters that were not, but we don't sell those meters anymore.

Nice to hear. When considering adding an eeColor (or similar) to my setup, at what point does the number of points become a moot point when considering the linearity and accuracy of the C6? I mean... measuring a 64^3 cube... don't the C6's own limitations come into play? So it's a continuum from 1 point per color through 64^3 (or, even 65^3? I haven't been following THAT discussion too closely.). Where on this continuum do the C6's limitations show up? Or do they?
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post #92 of 562 Old 03-18-2013, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post

Nice to hear. When considering adding an eeColor (or similar) to my setup, at what point does the number of points become a moot point when considering the linearity and accuracy of the C6? I mean... measuring a 64^3 cube... don't the C6's own limitations come into play? So it's a continuum from 1 point per color through 64^3 (or, even 65^3? I haven't been following THAT discussion too closely.). Where on this continuum do the C6's limitations show up? Or do they?

It's a continuous range from about 0.01 cd/m^2 to nearly 1000 cd/m^2 for each RGB sensor.

Meters don't know about points or discrete anything. They report back XYZ data.

The other part that you may be trying to hint at is the repeatability. Or the ability to get the same reading twice. The C6 is typically more repeatable than the display they are measuring. Typically that means we see maybe 1 8 bit step of fluctuation on a display that is fairly bouncy.

A 65^3 is 4 steps on an 8 bit step size. Anything more dense than that pushes the sensible limits for what sensible for calibration. But since the only available interpolation method at runtime is tri-linear, there is a benefit of having a higher density cube. Since we can run more advanced algorithms at creation time, we can create a cube that helps smooth the discontinuities linear filtering creates.

It's alot like the differences in 8 bit color vs 10 or 12 bit color. 8 Bit color is almost enough, but it's very easy to create banding with only 8 bits. Once you have 10 bits or more it's much easier to make smooth gradients.

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post #93 of 562 Old 03-18-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It's a continuous range from about 0.01 cd/m^2 to nearly 1000 cd/m^2 for each RGB sensor.

Meters don't know about points or discrete anything. They report back XYZ data.

Well, right. At some point, though, the signal has to become discrete, otherwise it would never go in a computer. But what I'm gathering is the C6's limitations (if any) really don't come into play, even at the highest resolution measurements.
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post #94 of 562 Old 03-18-2013, 04:01 PM
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Well, right. At some point, though, the signal has to become discrete, otherwise it would never go in a computer. But what I'm gathering is the C6's limitations (if any) really don't come into play, even at the highest resolution measurements.


It's SDK returns 64 bit floating point values, so the ability for the meter to express variation is several orders of magnitude greater than what we need to represent the smallest changes the sensors are capable of detecting.

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post #95 of 562 Old 03-18-2013, 05:33 PM
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A bit of update in our process in supporting the eeColor as a native device. Our plan was to allow Enthusiast users the ability to create a software LUT and then use the TruVue tools to load that LUT. So Joel was reviewing that process and said it was way too complicated and prone error. So we have changed a bit in how we are going to support the native eeColor. The plan is we are going to treat it like a ColorBox and allow you to connect directly and then CalMAN 5 will read/write the 3D LUTs directly without having these extra steps. But what will happen on first connect as a eeColor is we will overwrite the 1D input/output LUTs to 1:1 unity just like we do for the ColorBox. So once we have done that the visual perception LUTs for the eeColor will no longer work unless you use the TruVue tools to reset them back. Again this change is to make the process of calibrating the eeColor as easy as we do for the ColorBox and less prone to error.

The plan is to have a CalMAN 5.11 beta out soon, enjoy.

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post #96 of 562 Old 03-18-2013, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

...
The plan is we are going to treat it like a ColorBox and allow you to connect directly and then CalMAN 5 will read/write the 3D LUTs directly without having these extra steps.
....

Well, this is terrific news. I'm glad the more manual method didn't work out for you! smile.gif
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post #97 of 562 Old 03-18-2013, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Could you describe those errors please? I've been loading LightSpace LUTs for a year with no known errors. Thanks.


Edit: The more I think about this....
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

So Joel was reviewing that process and said it was way too complicated and prone error. The plan is we are going to treat it like a ColorBox and allow you to connect directly and then CalMAN 5 will read/write the 3D LUTs directly without having these extra steps.

Complicated? The procedures for loading with ee software are cut and dried with no problems.




Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

But what will happen on first connect as a eeColor is we will overwrite the 1D input/output LUTs to 1:1 unity just like we do for the ColorBox. So once we have done that the visual perception LUTs for the eeColor will no longer work unless you use the TruVue tools to reset them back. Again this change is to make the process of calibrating the eeColor as easy as we do for the ColorBox and less prone to error.

I write Calman LUTs over ee Unity files with no problem whatsoever.

This "announcement" tells me that the Enthusiast user is not going to be able to archive LUTs which can be a very handy tool when doing a lot of experimentation so that one can mix and match while comparing the performance of the finished products. I'm disappointed.

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post #98 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 03:29 AM
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HI Buzz,

I'm sure Derek or Joel could easily allow their software to check for correct Unity installation prior to taking over the Unity process.

Unless as you say they have a different reason for making this change?
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post #99 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Complicated? The procedures for loading with ee software are cut and dried with no problems.
I write Calman LUTs over ee Unity files with no problem whatsoever.

This "announcement" tells me that the Enthusiast user is not going to be able to archive LUTs which can be a very handy tool when doing a lot of experimentation so that one can mix and match while comparing the performance of the finished products. I'm disappointed.

Buzz is correct, loading the unity LUT in his procedure makes the box transparent (matrix, curves, and LUT are all set to pass IN->OUT untouched). Once that is done you can easily load any new LUT you like and these will not affect matrix+curves.

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post #100 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Complicated? The procedures for loading with ee software are cut and dried with no problems.
I write Calman LUTs over ee Unity files with no problem whatsoever.

This "announcement" tells me that the Enthusiast user is not going to be able to archive LUTs which can be a very handy tool when doing a lot of experimentation so that one can mix and match while comparing the performance of the finished products. I'm disappointed.

Buzz is correct, loading the unity LUT in his procedure makes the box transparent (matrix, curves, and LUT are all set to pass IN->OUT untouched). Once that is done you can easily load any new LUT you like and these will not affect matrix+curves.

Performing Unity from eeColor Application is safer because it uploads 1:1 Unity LUT's to All (6 Color Tables 1D+3D) Memories.

Derek, you are telling that CalMAN can't write to the 1D (RGB Balance-Gamma) Memory of eeColor, only ColorBox can do this after your modification to the firmware, now how it's possible to perform 1D LUT Reset from inside CalMAN with eeColor?

That means you can write Data to 1D LUT of eeColor....

But if you can't write to eeColor 1D LUT from inside CalMAN how you are performing 1D LUT Unity then?


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post #101 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Could you describe those errors please? I've been loading LightSpace LUTs for a year with no known errors. Thanks.

This "announcement" tells me that the Enthusiast user is not going to be able to archive LUTs which can be a very handy tool when doing a lot of experimentation so that one can mix and match while comparing the performance of the finished products. I'm disappointed.

Yes the archive would be nice, but I am "not going to look a gift horse in the mouth". Of-course that's saying Calmans upcoming support for eecolor box will give the same results as for the Mini 3D.

One thing is for sure with my VT50, CM5E, C6, Mini 3D and the eecolor box I got from you, my Gamma, RGB balance sucks after Caman has finished a 778 point LUT. The other thing is when running S&M disc it clearly shows that WRGB are being very heavily clipped.
None of these problems where apparent using the same Calman 5.1, same setup except not using eecolor but using the Mini 3D.

Conclusion, using Calman 5.1 Enthusiast, eecolor Box and this software http://www.eecolor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/truvueapp_version2.zip
And of-course your very nice instructions, this combo for me the way it is right now is poor.

ss

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post #102 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Edit: The more I think about this....
Complicated? The procedures for loading with ee software are cut and dried with no problems.
I write Calman LUTs over ee Unity files with no problem whatsoever.

You are not the one having to do tech support. Trust me yes your outline is good and can be followed but give someone more than one step and they find a way to mess it up. smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

This "announcement" tells me that the Enthusiast user is not going to be able to archive LUTs which can be a very handy tool when doing a lot of experimentation so that one can mix and match while comparing the performance of the finished products. I'm disappointed.

We always create backup copies of the LUTs written to a device this is no different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Performing Unity from eeColor Application is safer because it uploads 1:1 Unity LUT's to All (6 Color Tables 1D+3D) Memories.

Not the same. Unless you are changing the 1D RGB in/out LUT files for the TruVue utility those are unity to a different encoded space. CalMAN expects the eeColor/ColorBox to be a 1:1 space for the 3D LUTs.


Our motivation as always is to make the process easier to use and follow, no other reason than that.

Derek

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post #103 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Complicated? The procedures for loading with ee software are cut and dried with no problems.
I write Calman LUTs over ee Unity files with no problem whatsoever.

It does work well enough, but asking end users to rename files and copy them into the program files x86 directory overwriting installed files which requires Admin permissions isn't a burden we want to put on our users if we don't have to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

This "announcement" tells me that the Enthusiast user is not going to be able to archive LUTs which can be a very handy tool when doing a lot of experimentation so that one can mix and match while comparing the performance of the finished products. I'm disappointed.

Not at all, we'll still be writing out a LUT to the LUTs folders for users that want to have a collection of them. We'll also allow you to write to any of the 6 LUTs during calibraion, just like you can with a Colorbox. Basically the decision means that we will treat the EE exactly like we do with the ColorBox. There was no intent to neuter functionality, just to lessen the steps we ask our users to perform.
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Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

HI Buzz,

I'm sure Derek or Joel could easily allow their software to check for correct Unity installation prior to taking over the Unity process.

Unless as you say they have a different reason for making this change?

That's exactly why we are making the change. We can detect the 1D LUTs and update them to be correct, thus eliminating a potential misstep for new users.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Performing Unity from eeColor Application is safer because it uploads 1:1 Unity LUT's to All (6 Color Tables 1D+3D) Memories.

The EE unity tool writes an input 1D LUT that degammas the input into approximately linear space, and the output reapply the gamma. With a unity 3D LUT in the middle, you get complete passthrough, but the spacing on the 3D LUT is not longer the standard 4 bit spacing, but now spaced evenly on the linear signal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Derek, you are telling that CalMAN can't write to the 1D (RGB Balance-Gamma) Memory of eeColor, only ColorBox can do this after your modification to the firmware, now how it's possible to perform 1D LUT Reset from inside CalMAN with eeColor?

Of course we can write to the input/output 1D ramps. But once you changed them from the EE degamma/regamma ramps, none of their perceptual models works since the control points in the LUTs don't line up with what was expected from 1D inputs. So the idea is that if you want to use it like you would a colorbox, it will just work that way (after hitting reset once after you connect).

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post #104 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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When I use the SpectraCal Cube Generator in Ultimate I have options for LUT output.



65 LUTs will load with ee software, 64 LUTs will not.

When I use what I suspect will be the CalMAN ee workflow the LUTs are written directly to the eeBox and also saved on the hard drive as stated. These are 64s, right? They don't load with ee. Will you write 65s to the Box instead of 64s in the upcoming beta???

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post #105 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

It does work well enough, but asking end users to rename files and copy them into the program files x86 directory overwriting installed files which requires Admin permissions isn't a burden we want to put on our users if we don't have to.

We all know plenty about computers and calibrating. It's not that difficult and I already put up a tutorial. smile.gif

Tutorial: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461363/ee-colorbox-lightspace-and-3d-lut-calibration#post_23034867

The tutorial references the following among other things. Once you do it once or twice you can do it in your sleep.

Uploading Calibration LUTs
When using the eeColor LUT box for calibration you will need to upload the calibration LUTs generated via LightSpace CMS using eeColor's own control software, and the following procedure.

Go to directory C:\Program Files\Entertainment Experience LLC\TruVue eeColor Application\Data\3dtable\standard nonrgb led\General Media
Rename the existing LUTs to keep a copy of them
Copy the new LightSpace CMS 3D LUTs to this directory and rename as "3DLUT_2.txt", 3DLUT_3.txt", etc.
(It is suggested to keep 3DLUT_1.txt as a Unity LUT to use to compare the before/after calibration)
Startup the TruVue eeColor Application and select "Start Download"
Select display type of "Standard Non-RGB LED Display" and "General Media"
Tick just the 'eeColor 3D Tables' as you have previously set the "Calibration Tables" to default above
Start the download process and wait for the process to complete


It's not necessary to keep LUT 1 as Unity. The LUT on/off button on the eeBox remote will provide the bypass.

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post #106 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

When I use the SpectraCal Cube Generator in Ultimate I have options for LUT output.



65 LUTs will load with ee software, 64 LUTs will not.

When I use what I suspect will be the CalMAN ee workflow the LUTs are written directly to the eeBox and also saved on the hard drive as stated. These are 64s, right? They don't load with ee. Will you write 65s to the Box instead of 64s in the upcoming beta???
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

When I use the SpectraCal Cube Generator in Ultimate I have options for LUT output.



65 LUTs will load with ee software, 64 LUTs will not.

When I use what I suspect will be the CalMAN ee workflow the LUTs are written directly to the eeBox and also saved on the hard drive as stated. These are 64s, right? They don't load with ee. Will you write 65s to the Box instead of 64s in the upcoming beta???

That was a bug.

Originally we only had a 65 point and we always wrote the EE file as 1 less than the selected point. The decision was made to always make the point selection match what we wrote, but after we added the 64 point, the EE LUT writer didn't get updated so it continued to trim the lut down 1 point. If you crack the lut you'll se the 65 point output is 64 cubed and the 64 point file is only 63 cubed.

This will be fixed in 5.1.1 so the generated lut file will work correctly. Also we will still likely be adding the cube generator to enthusiast, just not on the first 5.1.1 beta.

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post #107 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post


Also we will still likely be adding the cube generator to enthusiast, just not on the first 5.1.1 beta.

Atta boy. wink.gif

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post #108 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Yes the archive would be nice, but I am "not going to look a gift horse in the mouth". Of-course that's saying Calmans upcoming support for eecolor box will give the same results as for the Mini 3D.

One thing is for sure with my VT50, CM5E, C6, Mini 3D and the eecolor box I got from you, my Gamma, RGB balance sucks after Caman has finished a 778 point LUT. The other thing is when running S&M disc it clearly shows that WRGB are being very heavily clipped.
None of these problems where apparent using the same Calman 5.1, same setup except not using eecolor but using the Mini 3D.

Conclusion, using Calman 5.1 Enthusiast, eecolor Box and this software http://www.eecolor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/truvueapp_version2.zip
And of-course your very nice instructions, this combo for me the way it is right now is poor.

ss

Take a look at the plasma discussion on page 2 of the Light Illusion forum. ABL fights LUTs and everything else all the way. On another note, Ted's LightSpace LUT on his Kuro produced the sweetest results I've ever seen on any type of display.

I just ordered a new Samsung 55F8000 LCD and I'm expecting BIG things....

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post #109 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 02:28 PM
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We all know plenty about computers and calibrating. It's not that difficult and I already put up a tutorial. smile.gif
...

"We" are not the target audience when a product is rolled out. "We" are not the people who will call their support line with questions. They are heading off know call generators at the pass. A wise move, I'd say, having had a software package to support myself. Even with our 1,000 users, we thought long and hard about any way we could reduce calls. And, it's a win-win. If the customer is not calling you, you are happy and they are happy.
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post #110 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post

"We" are not the target audience when a product is rolled out. "We" are not the people who will call their support line with questions. They are heading off know call generators at the pass. A wise move, I'd say, having had a software package to support myself. Even with our 1,000 users, we thought long and hard about any way we could reduce calls. And, it's a win-win. If the customer is not calling you, you are happy and they are happy.

Perhaps if people were programming instead of posting there wouldn't all the bug reports on certain forums.

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post #111 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 03:47 PM
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Perhaps if people were programming instead of posting there wouldn't all the bug reports on certain forums.

All I can say to a usually very informative poster is that you must have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed today. That was uncalled for. I'm a 5.1 user and am very pleased with the PP ratio.
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post #112 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 03:53 PM
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Buzz a bit harsh don't you think?

Personally I have used many software packages, from Free to $40000 cad types, ALL have had a bug or two somewhere, some even try to pass them off as designed features.
If they were all perfect there wouldn't be a need for new versions and we would still be using DOS interfaces....oh wait I still use DOS scripts....

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post #113 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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All I can say to a usually very informative poster is that you must have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed today. That was uncalled for. I'm a 5.1 user and am very pleased with the PP ratio.

Actually, I did. Enough to turn my 5 handicap into a 91 this morning. Sorry.

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Buzz a bit harsh don't you think?

I'm a Marine. No apologies for that. lol

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post #114 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Performing Unity from eeColor Application is safer because it uploads 1:1 Unity LUT's to All (6 Color Tables 1D+3D) Memories.

The EE unity tool writes an input 1D LUT that degammas the input into approximately linear space, and the output reapply the gamma. With a unity 3D LUT in the middle, you get complete passthrough, but the spacing on the 3D LUT is not longer the standard 4 bit spacing, but now spaced evenly on the linear signal.
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Derek, you are telling that CalMAN can't write to the 1D (RGB Balance-Gamma) Memory of eeColor, only ColorBox can do this after your modification to the firmware, now how it's possible to perform 1D LUT Reset from inside CalMAN with eeColor?

Of course we can write to the input/output 1D ramps. But once you changed them from the EE degamma/regamma ramps, none of their perceptual models works since the control points in the LUTs don't line up with what was expected from 1D inputs. So the idea is that if you want to use it like you would a colorbox, it will just work that way (after hitting reset once after you connect).

So without writing to 1D LUT but only to the 3D LUT Memory, someone with eeColor and CalMAN Enthousiast Licence can perform Large 3D Cube of 778 or more color points with acceptable results, without problems-clipping-color distortions etc..? Or is possible only using ColorBox?


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post #115 of 562 Old 03-19-2013, 09:34 PM
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It's SDK returns 64 bit floating point values, so the ability for the meter to express variation is several orders of magnitude greater than what we need to represent the smallest changes the sensors are capable of detecting.

Right, but internally they are L2F sensors, and are quanrtized by the count within the integration time (around 8 bits) when in frequency mode, or by the F * pulses/clock rate when in period mode, which is roughly 16 bits.
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post #116 of 562 Old 03-20-2013, 05:54 AM
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I created a detailed 771pt LUT last night on my Kuro set to colorspace 1. This is done with the eeColor and Calman enthusiast license. Not too shabby.....


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post #117 of 562 Old 03-20-2013, 06:27 AM
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KURO is very LUT-friendly and can be calibrated very well for a Plasma.

BTW What Meter did you used? Do you remember the Total Meter Read Number and the total time it took?


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post #118 of 562 Old 03-20-2013, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by 1forsnow View Post

I created a detailed 771pt LUT last night on my Kuro set to colorspace 1. This is done with the eeColor and Calman enthusiast license. Not too shabby.....

That's a vcery nice calibration, but how did you do a 21 point RGB/grayscale/Gamma, using eecolor and CME. ?

And yes when I did a manual 10 point RGB/grayscale/Gamma for my VT50 I flat lined RGB/grayscale/Gamma, however after I ran a verify calibration and checked the Gamma it was poor. My CIE chart looks very good as your does but In real time my WRGB are clipping big time to point I can use my eecolor box and 778 point LUT calibration.
I have ran maybe five 778 LUT calibration with and without pre setting the RGB adjust, reloading the software, using Buzz's generic and not using the generic.
Used meter profiles (C6/I1pro 2) I know to be very good, new profile, meter on screen and off, lowered the color by 5 ticks, etc. But still pretty much the same results, to the point I am at now, back using my Mini3D.

If you have a S&M calibration disc run it and you will easily see what I am talking about.

I understand if you like a great deal of pop and color/saturation, you may like. cool.gif

btw, I have bought and sold 3 new Kuros, so I do have a understanding of what they can do.

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post #119 of 562 Old 03-20-2013, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

That's a vcery nice calibration, but how did you do a 21 point RGB/grayscale/Gamma, using eecolor and CME. ?

And yes when I did a manual 10 point RGB/grayscale/Gamma for my VT50 I flat lined RGB/grayscale/Gamma, however after I ran a verify calibration and checked the Gamma it was poor. My CIE chart looks very good as your does but In real time my WRGB are clipping big time to point I can use my eecolor box and 778 point LUT calibration.
I have ran maybe five 778 LUT calibration with and without pre setting the RGB adjust, reloading the software, using Buzz's generic and not using the generic.
Used meter profiles (C6/I1pro 2) I know to be very good, new profile, meter on screen and off, lowered the color by 5 ticks, etc. But still pretty much the same results, to the point I am at now, back using my Mini3D.

If you have a S&M calibration disc run it and you will easily see what I am talking about.

I understand if you like a great deal of pop and color/saturation, you may like. cool.gif

btw, I have bought and sold 3 new Kuros, so I do have a understanding of what they can do.

ss

ss-

yes of course the EEC only does 16 lum points. I just used that page and changed it do read 21GS points and did a read series to verify linearity. Have you tried to do a 771pt cube only(reference white)? Maybe the 778pt is jacking things up?

I only used colorspace 1 to give me the widest gamut. The cube drags all the points back to the REC709 targets. My Kuro has a slightly undersaturated red with CS2(and of course blue), so i wanted to make sure i can make this as saturated as possible to start off with.

i will check the S&M disc tonight, thank you.
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post #120 of 562 Old 03-20-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 1forsnow View Post

ss-

yes of course the EEC only does 16 lum points. I just used that page and changed it do read 21GS points and did a read series to verify linearity. Have you tried to do a 771pt cube only(reference white)? Maybe the 778pt is jacking things up?

I only used colorspace 1 to give me the widest gamut. The cube drags all the points back to the REC709 targets. My Kuro has a slightly undersaturated red with CS2(and of course blue), so i wanted to make sure i can make this as saturated as possible to start off with.

i will check the S&M disc tonight, thank you.

Yes the Blue is one of the reason why I sold my Kuro 141 and got the VT50. I also wanted a display that has 3D (stereo).

Yes I have done 771 points and yes reference white, matter of fact my reference white points where set with a PR-655.

Maybe you missed this, if so check it out, its good news.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1462960/eecolor-processor-calman-3d-luts/90#post_23096366

ss

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