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post #1 of 27 Old 03-26-2013, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I have recently calibrated my Samsung plasma using a calibration disc. I seem to have everything adjusted perfectly using all the test patterns provided, i just have one question. When running the blue color test(the one where you put on the glasses), i adjusted the color/tint controls until it looked the way it should in the test pattern. Do i need to adjust anything further with the white balance control in my tv? or can this be left at the default values? I am assuming that i should leave the white balance controls at default since the blue test was 100% correct in the setup disc, i just wanted confirmation on that. Thanks.
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post #2 of 27 Old 03-26-2013, 06:15 PM
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Greetings

The Blue test is for the color and tint controls.

The WB controls require test equipment in order for you to use them correctly. Both a meter and software.

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post #3 of 27 Old 03-26-2013, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the response. So, the white balance is something that has to be professionally calibrated? or can i buy the software and do it myself.
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post #4 of 27 Old 03-26-2013, 07:03 PM
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Greetings

Everything can be done by yourself or a professional. wink.gif

You are at the test disc part of the journey. There are some other options that lie ahead.

This article covers the options.

Buy your own hardware and software and spend a lot of time researching.

Hire a professional ...

DIY but get live professional video training

DIY but get professional video training videos.

regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

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post #5 of 27 Old 03-26-2013, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I will check that out. Thanks for the help!!
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post #6 of 27 Old 03-26-2013, 07:23 PM
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You can turn down the color and watch a wide variety of programs and see if one color stands out, or if the brightest parts are the same color as the the darker parts.it only works when you first start watching say 5 minutes or so(((only works a few hours after sundown)).Then do the same thing the next evening. If you keep seeing A pattern of one color stands out then adjustment will help.Is it in the dark parts or bright parts? Brights adjusted with gain,darks with bias control.its usually only A couple of numbers adjustment max on each color with warm2 . You need the brightness and contrast set properly which is set differently depending on whether your box is set to rgb or ycc.

It is very difficult to get it right on plasmas and I would not attempt doing it unless your prepared to spend "many many hours", and even then you might not figure it out with the abl making more difficult.
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post #7 of 27 Old 03-26-2013, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Can white balance only be set properly on " warm 2" color mode? I currently have my color set to " normal "
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post #8 of 27 Old 03-26-2013, 10:08 PM
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If white balance is off, nothing else will be true to what it should be. It is very hard to do white balance without equipment, but you can eyeball it and get somewhat nearer to what is should be by looking at a black and white image. Turn the color control all the way down and look at the image. Are the black areas really black or do they have a blue or green cast to them? Look at the white areas. Do they have a shift toward one color or colors? If any of these scenarios is true the white balance is off. Most people are used to the old B&W TV images, these are invariably shifted toward blue and are not a good reference. A reference for an accurate white is snow on an overcast day, does not help if you are in the south...

I can't afford to get all my sets pro calibrated, I did have my main display done and I use that as a reference to adjust the others as best I can. Hopefully I will have some rudimentary equipment soon to assist me.
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post #9 of 27 Old 03-27-2013, 12:36 PM
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And the color filter method really accomplishes NOTHING in regards to getting the Color and Tint controls set properly. It has been my experience that using the blue filter (or even a Blue-only mode which many Samsungs have and which is much better than using the blue filter) rarely gets you to the right Color and Tint settings. And every set of instructions for the blue filter method says at the end that if the resulting color or tint don't look right, to make further adjustments by eye until the picture looks right. So why bother with the blue filter then? Why not just adjust the image by eye to set the Color and Tint controls?

Be aware that you don't just get a meter and software and get guided through to a good calibration and it's as easy as that. You will need to spend roughly 100 hours to study the calibration process and understand what you are doing (you can't really calibrate without understanding the whole process and expect good results as you won't know enough to recognize a measurement that is not good. After that 100 hours of study and practice, you'll get your first half-decent calibration, but it still won't be an ideal calibration. You'll spend another 30 to 50 hours revisiting your calibration and learning more and removing problems you missed earlier as you get better at understanding the calibration process and how good or bad your TV is at responding to calibration controls. There are NO shortcuts for that. The videos might shorten some of the time investment, but it won't make the whole process miraculously shorter. There is a TON to learn about calibration and getting good calibration is a lot like learning how to play a musical instrument... you aren't very good in the beginning no matter how much study you do. You have to practice, practice, practice to get good at playing a musical instrument... calibration is no different.

Take someone who has a PhD in Music but who has never played an instrument, then give them an instrument and have them play something... results are NOT going to be impressive in the beginning. So even the most video-calibration educated person is going to be challenged by the actual calibration process until a pretty large number of hours have been invested in the actual calibration of video displays. I calibrated professional video displays used in 6- to 7-figure imaging systems many times over the 34 years I was an imaging systems engineer, but calibrating home TVs and projectors was STILL a big challenge and learning experience, primarily because the controls in the displays don't work as effectively or with the linearity of controls in professional displays and projectors. With professional displays, the displays could almost always be made very accurate within the limitations of the display technology. Consumer panel displays and projectors have to be dragged kicking and screaming into calibration and much of the calibration job is compromising settings so that you may have two or three small errors instead of 1 large (visible) error. Learning which errors are easiest to see and which errors are more difficult to see is one of the keys to the calibration process for home video displays so that your calibration results approach the best they can be for any given video display.
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post #10 of 27 Old 03-27-2013, 03:24 PM
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As Doug says, the blue filter/mode method is not very reliable. Even to the extent it does not work on broadcast colour grading monitors.

A meter will provide greater accuracy. However, to get near to colour perfection is like torture to the soul.

If only things were as simple as using the blue method...theoretically, the blue method should be the best method.

Good luck
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post #11 of 27 Old 03-27-2013, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delphiplasma View Post

As Doug says, the blue filter/mode method is not very reliable. Even to the extent it does not work on broadcast colour grading monitors.

A meter will provide greater accuracy. However, to get near to colour perfection is like torture to the soul.

If only things were as simple as using the blue method...theoretically, the blue method should be the best method.

Good luck

All the blue method can do is correctly set your color decoder so that Red+Green+Blue = White.
It doesn't help you change the chromaticity of red or green or blue or white.

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post #12 of 27 Old 03-27-2013, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds pretty intimidating. You guys have scared me away from attempting to calibrate myself. haha j/k You would think that tv manufacturers would just design televisions with 100% accurate color without having to adjust. Or, is that way of thinking silly? Thanks for the pointers from everyone though.
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post #13 of 27 Old 03-27-2013, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cknookie View Post

Sounds pretty intimidating. You guys have scared me away from attempting to calibrate myself. haha j/k You would think that tv manufacturers would just design televisions with 100% accurate color without having to adjust. Or, is that way of thinking silly? Thanks for the pointers from everyone though.

Greetings

Ask and ye shall receive ...

Read this article ...

Regards

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The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

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post #14 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

All the blue method can do is correctly set your color decoder so that Red+Green+Blue = White.
It doesn't help you change the chromaticity of red or green or blue or white.

Which "back in the day," was pretty much the best one could do ... especially when it was pretty hard to change the chromaticity of CRT phosphors. wink.gif

Science, technology and methods progress. What was "state of the art" in 1995 may seem overly simplified in 2013. smile.gif

I remember a time when professional optical comparators were considered superior to tri-stimulus colorimeters ... and that might still be the case if anyone were still making them (OCs). smile.gif

PS: I agree with Doug in that the blue filter *alone* isn't the best. If you're going to use that method, you need to do it for all three primaries, then use the average of the three color values and the average of the three tint values as your "final answer."
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post #15 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 09:14 AM
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To get a big picture idea of how you would calibrate your white balance, you can see this:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1465303/calman-5-tutorial-for-novice-calibrators

My ES8000 settings, calibrated with an i1D3 and calman: Standard Mode, Movie Mode (out of date, will update soon)
CalMAN 5 Novice Walkthrough
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post #16 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cknookie View Post

Sounds pretty intimidating. You guys have scared me away from attempting to calibrate myself. haha j/k You would think that tv manufacturers would just design televisions with 100% accurate color without having to adjust. Or, is that way of thinking silly? Thanks for the pointers from everyone though.

It's not silly, but your basic $1500 TV would cost $10,000 if it came out of the box with grayscale, gamma, and color "perfect". That would be an "issue" for most people.

"Movies is magic..." Van Dyke Parks
THX Certified Professional Video Calibration
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post #17 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

It's not silly, but your basic $1500 TV would cost $10,000 if it came out of the box with grayscale, gamma, and color "perfect". That would be an "issue" for most people.

Hi Doug,

Just to add a little to your comment, a reply to one of my posts on another forum by the President of one of the Film Companies said that even his $40,000 reference Display comes uncalibrated.
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post #18 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 11:18 AM
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Greetings

The $75K Runco double STack LED DLP projector I worked with recently is supposed to come from the factory "calibrated." Runco supposedly does that to all their projectors ... That said ... Runco also highly recommends that people recalibrate these displays once they get installed to account for the room effects and the equipment that is hooked up to the TV.

Sometimes this precal is close ... and sometimes it is just like any other brand out there ... kinda close and kinda not.

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post #19 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

Hi Doug,

Just to add a little to your comment, a reply to one of my posts on another forum by the President of one of the Film Companies said that even his $40,000 reference Display comes uncalibrated.

We had the sony BVME250 come through our office.

It was quite possibly the best calibration I had ever seen or any display at any time when measured with our CS-2000.

And that was new out of the box.

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post #20 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

We had the sony BVME250 come through our office.

It was quite possibly the best calibration I had ever seen or any display at any time when measured with our CS-2000.

And that was new out of the box.

NICE! A 24" display for $24,000! eek.gif
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post #21 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 01:36 PM
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NICE! A 24" display for $24,000! eek.gif

It measured 300,000:1 contrast ratio on the CS-2000, with several other monitors pumping light into the room. It might be quite expensive, but it's performance was excellent.

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post #22 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 02:48 PM
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So how many zeros are we talking about for that 300,000:1? in foot lamberts please smile.gif
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post #23 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 03:46 PM
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Correct me if i'm wrong. The reason for non-standard phosphors/colour filters in domestic tv sets is due to the many differing broadcast standards, ntsc, pal, secam...etc. D93/D65. Most manufacturers build the display to give a world wide compromise.

Rec709 should hopefully help provide a worldwide standard?

Hey, i could be wrong, so please feel free to comment.
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post #24 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delphiplasma View Post

Correct me if i'm wrong. The reason for non-standard phosphors/colour filters in domestic tv sets is due to the many differing broadcast standards, ntsc, pal, secam...etc. D93/D65. Most manufacturers build the display to give a world wide compromise.

Rec709 should hopefully help provide a worldwide standard?

Hey, i could be wrong, so please feel free to comment.

Most of it is for marketing.

Having a slightly oversaturated display makes sure you can calibrate it down to standards, but the grossly oversaturated displays you see are simply manufacturers trying to add pop to the picture so it stands out on best buy's big wall of displays.

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post #25 of 27 Old 03-28-2013, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

We had the sony BVME250 come through our office.

It was quite possibly the best calibration I had ever seen or any display at any time when measured with our CS-2000.

And that was new out of the box.

Hi Joel,

This was the reply I got.

Obviously there is quality and there is quality.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/hdtv-video-displays-processors/59276-darbee-visual-presence-darblet-23.html#post540844
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post #26 of 27 Old 03-29-2013, 02:23 AM
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Hi sotti,

True with regards the electronics. However, the actual display panels will have gamuts to suit all countries. So, they try to ensure the
Panel can display the ntsc green which is far too large for pal standards.

Although, early day panels were marketed with overlarge gamut, to conteact the late days of crt with the ever shrinking gamuts to achieve greater brightness.
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post #27 of 27 Old 03-29-2013, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delphiplasma View Post

Hi sotti,

True with regards the electronics. However, the actual display panels will have gamuts to suit all countries. So, they try to ensure the
Panel can display the ntsc green which is far too large for pal standards.

Although, early day panels were marketed with overlarge gamut, to conteact the late days of crt with the ever shrinking gamuts to achieve greater brightness.

There is no NTSC content though. The mastering primaries used in the US prior to HD where SMTPE-C, which are far more similar to the PAL primaries.

Big gamuts are a product of bigger is better marketing.


As long as exaggerated pictures sell more TVs, that's what manufacturers will ship.

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