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post #1 of 20 Old 03-31-2013, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm trying to calibrate my JVC RS56 project that I bought in January. It probably has about 100 hours on the lamp. I'm using Chromapure and a Display 3 Pro light meter. I expected that it would take me around 20 hours the first time since I'm figuring this out for the first time. My goal is to beat the De on the THX and the Luminance error. Hopefully that's a good goal. I place the meter about 8 inches from the screen at a 15 to 20 degree angled up and to the side. Basically what I did was set the JVC to Standard color space and adjusted the contrast and brightness. Then the white balance like in the Chromapure directions. Then I go adjust the gamma. I first adjust the white gamma then I go and adjust the red, green, blue gamma curve to get the colors to get the smallest De. I shooting for a gamma to 2.25 and came out with an average of 2.26. Found a bug in the continious on the gamma screen it errors out and wipes out the lower gamma graph. I continue on and base my changes on the numbers in the upper grid . Then I go into color management and adjust the color to get as close to zero as possible on the luminance graph. I know one affects the other so I go back and forth a few times. I was surpised how much the meter jumps around in the reading. So I finally got to somthing I like and gave up for the night. It was 2 am. Looking at the reports the next day. It could have used some adjusting at the 10%, 30$, 40% and 100% which had higher errors then the THX mode. So I went back in and was planning to adjust those areas. So I stared off with a new pre-calibaration. Well all my gamma were not 2.26 any more but jumped to 2.33 on average and higher going to 2.5 in some areas. Not sure what happened there but I'm guessing that if the meter position changes a little that can affect it. Then try to adjust the gamma and the color gamma curves to get the ratio of RGB correct. The changing of the gamma isn't really changing the RGB % so I changing the numbers a lot. gamma curve now is getting kind of warped and not a flowing line. I figured that I would only need a small change in the gamma curve to improve the numbers. Not sure what is happening. The meter doesn't seem stable. Can anyone give me some pointers on what I'm doing wrong. I'm just so frustrated. I had to reset the JVC calibration again and start over. It's my third time.
I'm probalby up to 30 hours on this thing now.
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post #2 of 20 Old 03-31-2013, 11:04 AM
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Your 20 hour expectations were probably 80 hours sort and not very realistic. Some JVCs are also a real pain in the butt to calibrate. I know the RS40 did not respond as one would expect..
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post #3 of 20 Old 03-31-2013, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Your 20 hour expectations were probably 80 hours sort and not very realistic. Some JVCs are also a real pain in the butt to calibrate. I know the RS40 did not respond as one would expect..

Boy, you got that right. I got Chromapure with the advanced auto calibrate to use on my Lumagen XD and JVC RS40 and found the RS40 to be extremely quirky to calibrate and this is with using auto calibrate!!! I got decent numbers after having everything set correct on RS40 but when I went to try and get calibration closer the RS40 software seemed to bug out and the brightness function quit working properly. I even did a factory reset in service menu and installed last firmware and it still didn't work. I had to send projector in for warranty service on Friday because of this and front remote sensor not working unless you unplug it as well since my warranty ends at the end of next month. I hope it behaves better once it gets back but I hate to hear someone having a problem with a newer RS56 and calibration. The Chromapure advanced auto calibrate worked properly it was the JVC that was quirky with settings.

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post #4 of 20 Old 03-31-2013, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I was expecting some helpful responses not consolation. lol.... thinking about I should be crying. So it sound like I may have to reset it again and start over. It always seem to happen when I calibrate and then save it and come back to it a day or so later. It just seem very strange to me that something like this is happening. At 80 hours WOW! How can anyone make any money calibrating this unit if it takes 80 hours. I figured a pro charged around $500-$700. I figured it would be about 4-5 hours.


How long did it take to Auto-Calibrate your unit?
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post #5 of 20 Old 03-31-2013, 08:38 PM
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The point is it takes a long time with lots of attempts before you know what you are doing enough to be able to sit down and calibrate a display in a couple of hours. Most of us Enthusiast will spend many hours calibrating and recalibrating our displays to understand what effects what, and how. I have never calibrated that display so I can not help you, you need to figure out how your display responds and figure out it's idiosyncrasies. Unfortunately this takes lots of hours sitting in the dark.

One piece of advice I can give you is allow the display to warm up for at least an hour before you start. If you just starting to take reading after the unit is booted cold, your not going to see the same results as you did after 3 hours of run time the night before..

You may want to scan the owners thread for that projector in the projector forum and see if others who have calibrated their units have posted any info of issues / problems they had. Everything you are working with as far as controls are concerned is software and software is sometimes less than perfect at best..
Good luck and please try and post specific questions so we can better help you.
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post #6 of 20 Old 03-31-2013, 10:03 PM
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Greetings

I just calibrated the RS56 equivalent today for a friend of mine. Took about 45 minutes or so and we spent the rest of the two hours I was there talking about 2.35:1 options for his room. Straight forward ... no surprises. No need for automation ... test patterns off the test disc were just fine.

A case of a plumbing disaster in your home and the plumber shows up and fixes things in 5 minutes. It's not about how much time he spent, but about knowing what exactly to do in the time spent there.

A pro calibration of a projector like this would run about $375 to 600 depending on what a person asks for. They would more than likely use test equipment better than what you have.

Buying a hammer does not somehow impart you with the knowledge on how to build a house. Ditto for buying calibration hardware and software.

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post #7 of 20 Old 04-01-2013, 03:15 PM
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How did you settle on the meter being 8" from the screen? It's not seeing much of the screen when it is that close unless it has a HUGE viewing angle (the angle the meter's sensor "sees" when it takes measurements. If the meter is too close, there may not be many pixels being measured and you might need to back off... but 8" might be right if the meter's viewing angle is very large. At that distance, you have to be CERTAIN the meter is not reading an area of the screen that is in the shadow cast by the meter itself. If the meter does have a very large angle of view, at that close of a distance, it might be difficult to avoid measuring the shadow cast by the meter.

Is your screen low gain or high gain? If the screen has high gain, it is very directional and aiming the meter at an angle will produce very different results if you revisit the measurements a day later and the meter isn't in exactly the same position and at the same angle. When calibrating a projection system, what you really want is for the meter to be aimed along exactly the same angle as your eyeballs create when you are seated in your best seat. If the meter's angle is different, the meter will "see" the image differently than you do. That's why the best projection calibrations are done using meters that can be placed on a tripod many feet away from the screen and along exactly the same line of view you have when seated in your favorite seat.

Then there['s the issue of repeatability... to get the same results a day later, the projection lamp has to have been on for the same period of time as it was on the previous day when you were doing the calibration... AND the meter has to be setup in exactly the same position. Even then, there are variables in the projector that are likely to produce slightly different measurement results a day later. Can't avoid that. The differences shouldn't be HUGE, but various dEs might come in 1 or 2 higher (or lower) than they were the previous day. The meter may even need to be on for the same period of time it had been on the previous day just to make sure it is temperature stabilized.

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post #8 of 20 Old 04-01-2013, 04:44 PM
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Any AC or Heat coming off and on in some rooms could also be problematical. I have a very powerful fan in my HVAC system and I have to make sure the HVAC system is off when the measurements are being made.

The fastest way to determine if things are the same is to measure 100 percent white. If you are getting roughly the same luminance and RGB balance you should be okay from one day to the next. I am assuming you didn't run the projector 24 hours straight between calibrations.

I don't know anything about your projector but if it has a dymanic iris or some other dynamic contrast feature you can go around in circles if those features are not disabled.

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post #9 of 20 Old 04-01-2013, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I read somewhere that you should put the meter as close as possible to the screen and at a slight angle to avoid the shadow. Searching again I see some saying 30 - 60 cm. So 2 to 3 feet. The screen is a .98 seymour screen. It took me about three hours to calibrate and I'm comparing the graphs at the end of the session. So I would expect that the measurement would be about the same. Thinking about it more after my calibration. I think the JVC has a bug in the firmware. Trying to change the level the next day doesn't move the color leve but the gamma curve looks screwy.

Of couse Michael a professional calibrator it's going to take no time at all. I'm looking for a non-professional comments on how long it takes them. That would be more comparable. Unnecessary to make me feel more stupid then I feel already. At least I was smart enough to know who you are.
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post #10 of 20 Old 04-01-2013, 09:25 PM
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Sorry, 1 more pro jumping in here... tongue.gif I agree with Doug about the meter placement. Also, maybe at 100 hours, the lamp could still be changing a tiny bit, but not much. I have seen the quirkiness you described in the JVC user menu gamma, where it resets surrounding points when you make an adjustment to a specific area. That does make it very tough, though with enough time spent it can be worked with.

There is software available to ISF and THX calibrators that makes adjusting the gamma much easier if you do it a certain way and it can be more effective than doing it in the user menu; but there are 3 different versions of the ISF software, each designed for different JVC models, and the THX software only works on certain models.

I want to add that that the room must be completely dark when you take the measurements. I mean bat-cave dark. Any ambient light can mess up your low end grayscale/gamma readings. Indicator lights from equipment, etc need to be covered up or turned off.

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post #11 of 20 Old 04-01-2013, 09:48 PM
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Greetings

I'm not trying to make you feel stupid. I just want you to understand that there is a methodical approach to the process ... and when you understand that, stuff falls into place most of the time.

Announcing you want a specific gamma number is kinda silly. Like saying you want to go find a unicorn. Aiming for specific numbers often slows the process down and is counter productive ... especially when you realize that you won't be able to tell the difference on real material anyway. Understanding the relative importance of each thing you do in the calibration is oh so important. Each element does not have equal weighting to the next thing in the list. So many enthusiasts make that mistake and they get hung up over stuff that doesn't matter as much ... thinking it is the end of the world if they can't achieve perfection.

And don't forget that if you use a yardstick that is 38 inches long, it doesn't matter how careful you are measuring with that yard stick since it has an inherent error built into it already and nothing you can do about it.

No doubt you already have figured out that the gamma on the projector does not correspond with the test patterns we use with test discs. A 50% pattern does not correspond with 50% on that chart. The chart is based on the full PC range ... not video range.

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post #12 of 20 Old 04-01-2013, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven2583 View Post

I'm trying to calibrate my JVC RS56 project that I bought in January. It probably has about 100 hours on the lamp. I'm using Chromapure and a Display 3 Pro light meter. I expected that it would take me around 20 hours the first time since I'm figuring this out for the first time. My goal is to beat the De on the THX and the Luminance error. Hopefully that's a good goal. I place the meter about 8 inches from the screen at a 15 to 20 degree angled up and to the side. Basically what I did was set the JVC to Standard color space and adjusted the contrast and brightness. Then the white balance like in the Chromapure directions. Then I go adjust the gamma. I first adjust the white gamma then I go and adjust the red, green, blue gamma curve to get the colors to get the smallest De. I shooting for a gamma to 2.25 and came out with an average of 2.26. Found a bug in the continious on the gamma screen it errors out and wipes out the lower gamma graph. I continue on and base my changes on the numbers in the upper grid . Then I go into color management and adjust the color to get as close to zero as possible on the luminance graph. I know one affects the other so I go back and forth a few times. I was surpised how much the meter jumps around in the reading. So I finally got to somthing I like and gave up for the night. It was 2 am. Looking at the reports the next day. It could have used some adjusting at the 10%, 30$, 40% and 100% which had higher errors then the THX mode. So I went back in and was planning to adjust those areas. So I stared off with a new pre-calibaration. Well all my gamma were not 2.26 any more but jumped to 2.33 on average and higher going to 2.5 in some areas. Not sure what happened there but I'm guessing that if the meter position changes a little that can affect it. Then try to adjust the gamma and the color gamma curves to get the ratio of RGB correct. The changing of the gamma isn't really changing the RGB % so I changing the numbers a lot. gamma curve now is getting kind of warped and not a flowing line. I figured that I would only need a small change in the gamma curve to improve the numbers. Not sure what is happening. The meter doesn't seem stable. Can anyone give me some pointers on what I'm doing wrong. I'm just so frustrated. I had to reset the JVC calibration again and start over. It's my third time.
I'm probalby up to 30 hours on this thing now.
Steven, the reason you haven't gotten more response to this is the title of the thread: "Frustrated." It is so general that isn't going to inspire a lot of interest.

  • First, please use full field test patterns. Also, allow the projector to warm up for about 30 minutes before calibrating. The bulb takes a while to settle in.
  • Second, if you ever get that error in the Gamma module where the bottom chart gets a big red X in it, just close the Gamma module and then reopen. Take a sweep of 10 gamma readings to get back to where you were. Then resume your work.
  • Third, you need to post some numbers, charts, or reports. Sometimes new users have unrealistic expectations for what is a good result. The more specific the data, the better people can help. For example, I literally do not know what this means "The changing of the gamma isn't really changing the RGB % so I changing the numbers a lot. gamma curve now is getting kind of warped and not a flowing line." Changing the luminance does not always change the RGB balance. In fact, it is preferable if it doesn't. I am not sure what you are trying to achieve and why. If you are using the JVC built-in Custom Gamma controls to adjust gamma, then I feel your pain. These controls do not function ideally. You can pick up a DVDO Duo for a really good price now, which has very good 10-point controls that you can adjust directly within CP. The Lumagen does even better, though it is more expensive.
  • Fourth, regarding meter stability, go into the Raw Data module. Take 10 consecutive readings at whatever level you are having problems. Export that data to CSV and then post or send to ChromaPure support. I have seen no repeatability problems with this meter on front projectors.

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post #13 of 20 Old 04-02-2013, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I spent another night messing around with my projector. The attached report is what I ended up with. Looking at the statistics it looks like I'm pretty close on most stuff. Looks like it needs a little bit of tweaking but I'm afraid to touch it now having to start over. I will watching some movies tonight.

Looks like I need to read up on gamma. I thought you were suppose to end up with a straight line.



CalibrationSummaryDetailed.pdf 137k .pdf file
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post #14 of 20 Old 04-03-2013, 12:27 AM
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Greetings

That's all there is ... there is no more. If you flatten the gamma line, you have a pretty graph ... nothing else. you can't see it. So is it about pretty graphs or is it about the pictures on the screen?

You've gone as far as you can with your tools.

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post #15 of 20 Old 04-03-2013, 03:21 AM
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Isn't it odd that pretty much all colors are spott-on, except green and cyan? That said, I am guessing the errors on green and cyan are beyond human perception, right?

As far as gamma goes, don't look at the line, look at the numbers. All of your gamma measurements are between 2.21 and 2.27. That's a difference of 0.06! Pretty much close to perfection as far the humanly perceptable...
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post #16 of 20 Old 04-03-2013, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

Isn't it odd that pretty much all colors are spott-on, except green and cyan? That said, I am guessing the errors on green and cyan are beyond human perception, right?

As far as gamma goes, don't look at the line, look at the numbers. All of your gamma measurements are between 2.21 and 2.27. That's a difference of 0.06! Pretty much close to perfection as far the humanly perceptable...
I see this all of the time. Some projector manufacturers--JVC comes to mind--will undersaturate the green primary as a way of getting more light. The undersaturated green spills over to cyan.

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post #17 of 20 Old 04-03-2013, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven2583 View Post

I spent another night messing around with my projector. The attached report is what I ended up with. Looking at the statistics it looks like I'm pretty close on most stuff. Looks like it needs a little bit of tweaking but I'm afraid to touch it now having to start over. I will watching some movies tonight.

Looks like I need to read up on gamma. I thought you were suppose to end up with a straight line.



CalibrationSummaryDetailed.pdf 137k .pdf file
As I suspected your expectations were somewhat inflated. Other than the undersaturated green and cyan--which cannot be fixed--this is as close to perfect that one can expect to get.

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post #18 of 20 Old 04-03-2013, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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My main frustration I think is with the JVC interface and a bug that must be in the firmware. I calibrated one day then went back the next day and I couldn't make any adjustments. The adjustments I tried to make didn't seem behave like they did the previous night as I had to change the numbers a lot but with little to no effect which wasn't like the night before. Once I accepted I only had one shot at the adjustments and I had to reset the values to make further adjustments I would work with what I had better. It's just frustrating to be changing something and the outcomes doesn't match what you expect. Meter numbers bouncing up and down and the time consuming of resetting everything and starting over when you only wanted to make a small adjustment didn't help either.
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post #19 of 20 Old 04-03-2013, 05:56 PM
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I had a go at doing a quick calibration on a friend's X55 and found that I couldn't get back to the measurements I made when I started. There was something odd going on since my first measurement of the colour gamut gave a pretty decent result that didn't really need much adjustment anyway. The gamma was quite low at 2.0 average so I tried to correct that but ran out of time, so I just reset it back to factory. When I re measured the colour gamut again it was out by well over 5dE for some colours. I hadn't time to recheck everything so had to leave it, so I never got to the bottom of why. I've used the same meter, laptop and Chromapure to measure and calibrate my own X35 (using a Lumagen) which seems very consistent and all seems to work as it should. All it confirms is that I did the right thing chosing an external VP since I just can't get along with the JVC controls. biggrin.gif

I haven't seen too many posts about Pros calibrating the newer models, but there seemed to be something odd about that X55 I worked on.Maybe the OP's projector is similarly effected?

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post #20 of 20 Old 04-03-2013, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I've used the same meter, laptop and Chromapure to measure and calibrate my own X35 (using a Lumagen) which seems very consistent and all seems to work as it should. All it confirms is that I did the right thing chosing an external VP since I just can't get along with the JVC controls. biggrin.gif
I couldn't agree more. A Lumagen or Duo are essential tools in my opinion for video enthusiasts.

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