How to use a meter in non-contact mode with a plasma? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 37 Old 04-30-2013, 04:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I've both an i1Pro and and i1D2. So far, I've been using them in contact mode, against the plasma. Is it wise to use it in non-contact mode? If so, how do you actually go about setting that up? How do you position the i1Pro or i1D2 in front of the screen? How far does it need to be? It would be awesome if someone can provide some info and pictures on how to set this up.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 37 Old 04-30-2013, 05:11 AM
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I could be way off-base here, but when I calibrated 3D on my plasma I used non-contact mode and I basically placed the meter as close as possible to the TV without it actually touching and make sure the room is as dark as it can possible get. Assuming you're using HCFR just use non-contact mode and do everything else as normal.

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post #3 of 37 Old 04-30-2013, 08:58 AM
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post #4 of 37 Old 04-30-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I think the D2 is a contact meter only.

It can be used as a non-contact ... in fact it even comes with a diffuser to use with "ambient" light or pointed *at* front-projector.

Still, it was designed primarily for use on CRT or LCD *computer* monitors ... plus, at this point, all of them have at least 2 years worth of aging on their filters.
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post #5 of 37 Old 04-30-2013, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

It can be used as a non-contact ... in fact it even comes with a diffuser to use with "ambient" light or pointed *at* front-projector.

Still, it was designed primarily for use on CRT or LCD *computer* monitors ... plus, at this point, all of them have at least 2 years worth of aging on their filters.

Aging is not a problem for me. I can profile my D2 against my i1Pro to generate a correction matrix.

Does anyone have a picture of a setup in non-contact for plasma or LCD?
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post #6 of 37 Old 04-30-2013, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

It can be used as a non-contact ... in fact it even comes with a diffuser to use with "ambient" light or pointed *at* front-projector.

Still, it was designed primarily for use on CRT or LCD *computer* monitors ... plus, at this point, all of them have at least 2 years worth of aging on their filters.

perhaps technically, but it's not recommended to use it in non-contact mode (especially with the diffuser which isn't very good for taking readings off the lens of a FP)

my point is something like a D3/C6 works quite well in non-contact mode and was built with this in mind whereas the D2 is mainly a contact probe with a diffuser tacked on as an afterthought

the design of the D3 is very different from the D2 and that's what makes it a much better choice for non-contact use
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post #7 of 37 Old 04-30-2013, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

perhaps technically, but it's not recommend to use it in non-contact mode (especially with the diffuser which isn't very good for taking readings off the lens of a FP)

my point is something like a D3/C6 works quite well in non-contact mode and was built with this in mind whereas the D2 is mainly a contact probe with a diffuser tacked on as a afterthought

the design of the D3 is very different from the D2 and that's what makes it a much better choice for non-contact use


How about the i1Pro then? Can that be used in non-contact? If so, how do you set it up?
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post #8 of 37 Old 04-30-2013, 09:19 PM
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How about the i1Pro then? Can that be used in non-contact? If so, how do you set it up?

yes, it can

you'd need to use a tripod and have a tripod holder like this (http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/accessories/i1pro-tripod-holder.html) or something similar

as for how far it should be from the screen, I'm sure others can provide that info... but it's generally not too far from the screen (probably a few inches from a flat panel display like LCD or plasma)
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post #9 of 37 Old 05-01-2013, 10:58 AM
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1433146/daytime-calibration-housing-to-block-out-ambient-light-is-there-such-a-thing#post_23086117


I used the holder that came with the i1Pro and created a frame to hold the i1pro in place, as youll see in the photos.

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post #10 of 37 Old 05-02-2013, 02:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1433146/daytime-calibration-housing-to-block-out-ambient-light-is-there-such-a-thing#post_23086117


I used the holder that came with the i1Pro and created a frame to hold the i1pro in place, as youll see in the photos.


That's quite a nice setup you got there. So is there anything particularly wrong with using contact-mode?
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post #11 of 37 Old 05-02-2013, 02:30 AM
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That's quite a nice setup you got there. So is there anything particularly wrong with using contact-mode?

Personally speaking ive never had any issues with readings or results using both meters in contact mode. Others may disagree or agree but ive yet to see any proof that contact mode creates issues.

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post #12 of 37 Old 05-02-2013, 12:36 PM
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I believe the i1pro does not have thermal compensation. So in contact mode with a plasma its reading are going to change as it warms up to screen temperature. Just something to be aware of....
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post #13 of 37 Old 05-02-2013, 12:53 PM
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So is there anything particularly wrong with using contact-mode?

When folks first started trying to use the i1D2 on plasmas (a device it was never intended to be used upon) they found that heat from the plasma screen caused the readings to drift. Later on, folks started to become concerned about FOV (field of vision) issues: i.e. perhaps the "red" sensor might be looking at a gap between pixels (particularly on 720p panels???) I've never used one on a plasma, so I can't really comment on the validity of these concerns ...

As for the i2Pro, original through rev D., having to take the thing out of the "contact mode" adapter every 10-15 minutes so you can put it on the calibration plate gets a bit onerous, not to mention the risk of damaging the adapter a/o mounting ring on the i1Pro ... plus, the strap isn't long enough to work effectively on anything much larger than 42" flat panel.
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post #14 of 37 Old 05-02-2013, 12:54 PM
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I believe the i1pro does not have thermal compensation.

Which is taken care of by your periodic "dark readings," which you should be taking every 10 minutes or so, anyway. smile.gif
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post #15 of 37 Old 05-02-2013, 02:43 PM
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Which is taken care of by your periodic "dark readings," which you should be taking every 10 minutes or so, anyway. smile.gif

I think of it this way: if I'm supposed to take ridiculously frequent dark readings on a temperature stabilized i1pro, I'll bet readings are really drifting quickly while it's warming up.

Of course, the whole "requirement" for frequent dark readings may be a bit overstated, but that has been the topic of another thread so there's no need to go there. I think it's fair to say that unless your meter has temperature compensation built in you should probably warm it up the same way you warm up the equipment you're testing. Non-contact mode avoids that (assuming the meter is at room temperature).
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post #16 of 37 Old 05-02-2013, 08:21 PM
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Where my VT50 is on the wall, a tripod doesnt much cut it, unliss I want the meter like 2 feet away. I'm just not that worried about it. I hang the meter up there (contact mode) and then setup all the other junk. After about 30 mins I just calibrate away. Sweating on screen vs 1 inch off is really splitting hairs.

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post #17 of 37 Old 05-02-2013, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post

I think of it this way: if I'm supposed to take ridiculously frequent dark readings on a temperature stabilized i1pro, I'll bet readings are really drifting quickly while it's warming up.

Of course, the whole "requirement" for frequent dark readings may be a bit overstated, but that has been the topic of another thread so there's no need to go there. I think it's fair to say that unless your meter has temperature compensation built in you should probably warm it up the same way you warm up the equipment you're testing. Non-contact mode avoids that (assuming the meter is at room temperature).

LOL ... well in my case, calibration sessions tend to drag on into the wee hours, so by the time I'm down to "the final" check(s) everything is going to be nice and toasty anyway.
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Where my VT50 is on the wall, a tripod doesnt much cut it, unliss I want the meter like 2 feet away. I

That's why we came up with the Extension Bar Kit




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post #19 of 37 Old 05-03-2013, 10:17 AM
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Still, some people get all that because they don't want to touch the screen, just get two inches off lol. I could care less, for one the D3 pro/C6 isn't gonna hurt your screen and the heat thing is, well... But hey, selling bars is good for business!

I actually have the bar from gerianne.

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post #20 of 37 Old 05-03-2013, 01:03 PM
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When folks first started trying to use the i1D2 on plasmas (a device it was never intended to be used upon) they found that heat from the plasma screen caused the readings to drift. Later on, folks started to become concerned about FOV (field of vision) issues: i.e. perhaps the "red" sensor might be looking at a gap between pixels (particularly on 720p panels???) I've never used one on a plasma, so I can't really comment on the validity of these concerns ...

As for the i2Pro, original through rev D., having to take the thing out of the "contact mode" adapter every 10-15 minutes so you can put it on the calibration plate gets a bit onerous, not to mention the risk of damaging the adapter a/o mounting ring on the i1Pro ... plus, the strap isn't long enough to work effectively on anything much larger than 42" flat panel.

regarding the strap length, Airscapes told me to use a high quality measure tape to replace the original strap and it works great...

also, I kinda cheat with the dark cals by leaving the meter on-screen and turning the display off so it becomes the black surface (some light could get in between the LCD screen glass or the plasma glass in front of the actual PDP or even through the TV cabinet/frame from the sides/back but it still keeps my readings stable over long sessions and allows me to keep the meter in place during dark cals)... not to mention that the same amount of light can get in during the actual measurements, so probably not a big deal

in addition, if I try taking an actual measurement with the meter in contact mode and the TV off, it indicates no light is detected (zero/error message)... so the i1pro isn't really picking up any stray light that's its sensors can detect as far as I can tell
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post #21 of 37 Old 05-03-2013, 02:33 PM
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Still, some people get all that because they don't want to touch the screen, just get two inches off lol. I could care less, for one the D3 pro/C6 isn't gonna hurt your screen and the heat thing is, well... But hey, selling bars is good for business!

I actually have the bar from gerianne.

I don't make contact on any of my Kuros... one of the reasons behind the design Greg and I did....

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post #22 of 37 Old 05-03-2013, 03:43 PM
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There is one aspect of contact mode that I'm not particularly comfortable with large screen 1080p displays and that is dot-pitch vs meter's field of focus.
Your average 24" LCD/LED monitor has a much finer dot-pitch than a 65" 1080p display. A meter in contact mode on a big display will be measuring more of the vacant areas between each cell compared to when its a few inches away.

Unfortunately I haven't really put this to the test with my i1 Display Pro and I wouldn't know where to start. So I just take the precaution of measuring further back and use a hood if the room lighting isn't optimum.
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post #23 of 37 Old 05-04-2013, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
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regarding the strap length, Airscapes told me to use a high quality measure tape to replace the original strap and it works great...

Aye ... I think I scanned that post awhile back.
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also, I kinda cheat with the dark cals by leaving the meter on-screen and turning the display off so it becomes the black surface

humm ... not sure how I feel about that (especially for an EEFL LCD) ... Kind of defeats the purpose of letting the set stabilize. I think you'd be better off using the opaque cap while displaying a 0% stimulus frame.

My main concern is possibly damaging either the contact adapter or the mounting ring by constantly taking the i1Pro in and out of the adapter. Then again, supposedly you only need to use the white tile calibration plate once. In short, life is probably a lot easier using a tripod mount in "near" contact mode, but even with the supplied adapter, the i1Pro's aperture is actually at least 5mm away from the screen.
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Quote:
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Still, some people get all that because they don't want to touch the screen, just get two inches off lol. I could care less, for one the D3 pro/C6 isn't gonna hurt your screen and the heat thing is, well... But hey, selling bars is good for business!

I actually have the bar from gerianne.

I don't make contact on any of my Kuros... one of the reasons behind the design Greg and I did....

+1, Me too, KURO's Panel is getting very hot after Large 3D Cube Profilings. The best position of the meter is from your seating possition, but you need very expensive meter to read a small area of pixels from that large distance. wink.gif

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post #25 of 37 Old 05-04-2013, 05:10 AM
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What is the recommended distance for an i1pro2 from a plasma display?

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post #26 of 37 Old 05-04-2013, 01:41 PM
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humm ... not sure how I feel about that (especially for an EEFL LCD) ... Kind of defeats the purpose of letting the set stabilize. I think you'd be better off using the opaque cap while displaying a 0% stimulus frame.

My main concern is possibly damaging either the contact adapter or the mounting ring by constantly taking the i1Pro in and out of the adapter. Then again, supposedly you only need to use the white tile calibration plate once. In short, life is probably a lot easier using a tripod mount in "near" contact mode, but even with the supplied adapter, the i1Pro's aperture is actually at least 5mm away from the screen.

well, when I calibrate my plasma, I have to constantly go in and out of the SM to calibrate grayscale (it's a 2008 Panasonic with 2-pt w/b controls only in SM and readings must be taken in the user menu)... so, doesn't matter in that case

my other main display is a Samsung LED-LCD, which seems to get bright quickly and stay consistently bright... in fact, I'm not sure whether I notice any brightness change (visually) from a cold start in the morning to running for several hours (I still warm it up for 1-2 hours before a calibration session to be safe by just watching something on it)... and when I measure Y for 100% white, the value stays constant between power cycles/dark cals (+/- 0.25 fL or less)



another approach would be to just lift the meter off the screen slightly while in contact mode and cover up the hole in the contact adapter with a black opaque piece of plastic or anything else that blocks out all light from the sensor and then gently place the meter back on screen
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post #27 of 37 Old 05-04-2013, 01:50 PM
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also I don't think it matters whether you use the white tile or just a black, opaque flat surface... at least on the original i1pro (the i1pro2 might doing something extra with the white tile)

the benefit of doing dark cals every 10 mins is to keep things extremely stable in terms of readings... especially under 10 cdm
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post #28 of 37 Old 05-05-2013, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post


another approach would be to just lift the meter off the screen slightly while in contact mode and cover up the hole in the contact adapter with a black opaque piece of plastic or anything else that blocks out all light from the sensor and then gently place the meter back on screen

Not sure that's going to block all of the light ... I seem to remember a stray slot or hole in the adapter, but it's been a while since I had it out of the case. Sounds like experiment time. smile.gif

I have the feeling it's time to bump the backlight drive up a few notches anyway ...
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post #29 of 37 Old 05-05-2013, 10:05 AM
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Not sure that's going to block all of the light ... I seem to remember a stray slot or hole in the adapter, but it's been a while since I had it out of the case. Sounds like experiment time. smile.gif

I have the feeling it's time to bump the backlight drive up a few notches anyway ...

if you're going to check a few things out, it would be helpful to compare readings from the following:

single dark cal on white tile and no subsequent dark cals

single dark cal on flat black, opaque surface and no subsequent dark cals

periodic dark cals (every 10 mins) on TV screen in contact mode with display off

periodic dark cals (every 10 mins) by lifting adapter slightly off-screen and blocking hole in adapter

*control periodic dark cals (every 10 mins) with all light blocked from i1pro's sensors*


not sure if you are willing to do all that, but doing even 2-3 of those could shed some useful insights for those wondering how important the dark cals are and how they should be done in terms of balancing convenience vs. ideal practices... at least for an EEFL LCD
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post #30 of 37 Old 05-06-2013, 12:37 AM
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also I don't think it matters whether you use the white tile or just a black, opaque flat surface... at least on the original i1pro (the i1pro2 might doing something extra with the white tile)

the benefit of doing dark cals every 10 mins is to keep things extremely stable in terms of readings... especially under 10 cdm

On the i1pro2 it definitely does matter that you use the white tile.

In both Chromapure and Calman, not using the white file will give you a red error signal when you go to initialize it.

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