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post #3781 of 3848 Old 06-20-2015, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
but 98% white is still off with both runs.
do you have any clue why fhoec ?
Delta E 2000 of 0.2, that's insignificant.

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post #3782 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 04:48 AM
 
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im not quite happy with the last 3D LUTs gamma curve.

This is the first 3D LUT i have created (first with this tv and first with the latest argyllcms) that darkens the low end details and brightens the high level details.
this makes the picture almost harsh and unpleasant to look at.

Gamma at low IREs (5-10%) with the 3D LUT is at 2.4 and the high IREs at 2.1
this is from selecting a Custom Tone Curve with gamma 2.3 and the "Relative" setting.
Native Gamma is at 2.3 at the low IREs and around 2.2 at high.

This type of gamma curve from the 3D LUT is used by manufacturers to boost contrast ratio in the image and making the picture look like it has a higher contrast than the tv really has.
i dont need that (fake) boost on this tv as it already have an insane contrast performance

with all this 1% step readings of the grayscale why can the program adjust the gamma curve to be flat?
as for now it makes the gamma curve worse than the native gamma is at.

should i try another run and select "Black point compensation" or change to "Absolute" gamma ?

i bet the gamma curve will be better if i use one of the older verision of Argyllcms.
is there a way to download the older versions (from around april this year) ?

Last edited by all clear; 06-21-2015 at 04:52 AM.
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post #3783 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
im not quite happy with the last 3D LUTs gamma curve.
The 3D LUT wasn't used in the last reports you posted. To verify the 3D LUT, you need to re-enable "Simulation profile" (set it to Rec. 709 with same tone curve settings as during 3D LUT generation) and "Use simulation profile as target profile" + "Enable madVR 3D LUT".

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Last edited by fhoech; 06-21-2015 at 05:19 AM.
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post #3784 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 08:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
The 3D LUT wasn't used in the last reports you posted. To verify the 3D LUT, you need to re-enable "Simulation profile" (set it to Rec. 709 with same tone curve settings as during 3D LUT generation) and "Use simulation profile as target profile" + "Enable madVR 3D LUT".
ok i see but still the gamma curve is not flat when checking it with a calibration program.
i think i pass here and disable 3D LUT for now.
there are probably other 3D LUT programs that do the job better.

i mean
it can adjust colors close to 0
but gamma curve is worse than it was before the 3D LUT.
something isnt right here.
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post #3785 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
ok i see but still the gamma curve is not flat when checking it with a calibration program.
To check with another program, you need to make sure the other program is using the 3D LUT as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
there are probably other 3D LUT programs that do the job better.
If the other program is working right, it will give you excatly the same results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
but gamma curve is worse than it was before the 3D LUT.
something isnt right here.
"Worse" is a subjective statement. I'd like to see some graphs and numbers with the 3D LUT actually used, and I'd like to know what parameters exactly were used when generating the 3D LUT.

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Last edited by fhoech; 06-21-2015 at 08:43 AM.
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post #3786 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 08:50 AM
 
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i use Chroma Pure and the avshd709 5% windows patterns for gamma and grayscale.
those patterns are played through MPC-HC with the 3D LUT enabled in madvr.

here is the correct report then
http://privat.bahnhof.se/wb192876/Me...1%2017-23.html
i guess Blue color wasnt that good that i thought.
still errors there.

i checked with chroma pure and its almost the same readings.
but anyway i still prefer the native more flat gamma curve at 2.3
it have better details near black and a more calm picture.
like i said this type of gamma curve gets an harsh overdone and jumbly image.

you want gamma flat for a more neutral image.

Last edited by all clear; 06-21-2015 at 09:18 AM.
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post #3787 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 08:56 AM
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With a Kuro KRP you don't need 1D LUT. Gamma curve is very precise and linear and with temperature manual control (RGB High + Low) you can get excellent White balance.
In DCG - Calibration, set Tone curve "As measured" and Profile only, no calibrate.

This is my Grayscale in 3D LUT, obtained in this way:


Plasma TV: Pioneer Kuro KRP-500A - Pioneer Kuro LX-508D - Panasonic TX-P50VT30E
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post #3788 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
i post the gamma curve from Chroma Pure and you will see that its not showing the same curve as i get here.
those low and high IREs are more off with chroma pure.
and thats what i see on real content
That would indicate a problem with MPC-HC playback then, or pattern size/background set in madTPG not matching the AVSHD disc. I'd like to see the ChromaPure report as well.

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post #3789 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 12:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
That would indicate a problem with MPC-HC playback then, or pattern size/background set in madTPG not matching the AVSHD disc. I'd like to see the ChromaPure report as well.
its almost identical except that CP reports 5% at gamma 2.38 and this at 2.34
the only difference is that the avshd709 windows are a little bit bigger but they are not that big to trigger ABL.

is there a way to keep the native gamma curve when making a 3D LUT?
i mean is it possible to add a setting for that ?
add native blacklevel to that also

Zimbalo: i agree
nothing to improve with the gamma there
but color grades near black gets clearly better with the 3D LUT.
more so with these lowered blacks
also colors and the added 3d effect with the 3D LUT gets higher so thats why i want to use it.

Last edited by all clear; 06-21-2015 at 06:38 PM.
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post #3790 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
its almost identical except that CP reports 5% at gamma 3.8 and this at 3.4
I have no idea what those numbers are. The report you posted shows 5% level through the 3D LUT to be at gamma 2.32.
Does ChromaPure offer the option to calculate the correct targets for AVSHD? The latter uses integer truncation instead of rounding, and this needs to be accounted for in the target calculation (e.g. 5% or level 26.95 is more like 4.57% or level 26 when truncation is used, and this alone can lead to differences in gamma of around 0.06)

Quote:
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is there a way to keep the native gamma curve when making a 3D LUT?
i mean is it possible to add a setting for that ?
It doesn't make sense to me. I can think of two scenarios:
- Display is very close to the target in terms of tone response, so a 3D LUT will do almost no correction.
- Display is not as close to the target, so correction is desired which a 3D LUT can provide.
I can see no useful scenario where you want to keep a response that's off from the target, that would defeat the whole point of a 3D LUT.

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add native blacklevel to that also
The 3D LUT doesn't change the native black level.

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post #3791 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
I have no idea what those numbers are. The report you posted shows 5% level through the 3D LUT to be at gamma 2.32.
Does ChromaPure offer the option to calculate the correct targets for AVSHD? The latter uses integer truncation instead of rounding, and this needs to be accounted for in the target calculation (e.g. 5% or level 26.95 is more like 4.57% or level 26 when truncation is used, and this alone can lead to differences in gamma of around 0.06)
Also, even small window size differences can cause point gamma variations on plasmas. Doing software cross checks with plasmas requires identical pattern geometry. Even then you'll often get variations of +/- 0.1 at the high end just due to pattern fatigue and repeatability since point gamma gets extremely sensitive to luminance fluctuations up near 100% stimulus.
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post #3792 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 06:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
I have no idea what those numbers are.

It doesn't make sense to me. I can think of two scenarios:
- Display is very close to the target in terms of tone response, so a 3D LUT will do almost no correction.
- Display is not as close to the target, so correction is desired which a 3D LUT can provide.
I can see no useful scenario where you want to keep a response that's off from the target, that would defeat the whole point of a 3D LUT.


The 3D LUT doesn't change the native black level.
wrong numbers there.
2.38 and 2.34

the problem is that it does a correction to the gamma curve and probably also blacklevel.
and it doesnt do a good job
its not flat
low IREs to high and High ires to low. (fake contrast to the whole image..who wants that?)
the NATIVE gamma curve is closer to reference with low ires at gamma 2.3 as they should be.

i dont understand why its so difficult to correct the gamma curve when it corrects thousands of colorpoints and also grayscale without problem.
it takes 1% or 2% step readings from 0 to 100%.
it should be easy to correct gamma and make it flat when its only luminance changes that needs to be corrected.

i give up on this program
the native performance on the 500M will also work.
i get back the waterpainting effect and bad color grades near black thats all

Last edited by all clear; 06-21-2015 at 06:49 PM.
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post #3793 of 3848 Old 06-21-2015, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all clear View Post
wrong numbers there.
2.38 and 2.34
If you account for the 0.06 difference due to ChromaPure not using the correct levels that leaves 2.32 and 2.28 which is spot on (+-0.02 difference is not significant and the instrument repeatability already accounts for this variation).

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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
it should be easy to correct gamma and make it flat when its only luminance changes.
And it does.
http://privat.bahnhof.se/wb192876/Me...1%2017-23.html

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post #3794 of 3848 Old 06-24-2015, 01:48 PM
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I am frustrated... My monitor and my projector measures the same with i1 Display 3 and i1 Pro but to the eye and to my camera there's a ton of difference! How can it be???
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post #3795 of 3848 Old 06-24-2015, 03:19 PM
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do they have the same brightness?
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post #3796 of 3848 Old 06-24-2015, 03:43 PM
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It's probably your set-up. How are you displaying the images simultaneously? Presumably you're using madVR since you're posting in this thread, but it can't render to two screens at once. Perhaps you have some color management going on that was not present when you did the measurements. More details on how the images are delivered to each screen compared to how you measured the screens is needed. Also, it's easier to start simple and compare single color neutral images first when doing this sort of test.
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post #3797 of 3848 Old 06-24-2015, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post
I am frustrated... My monitor and my projector measures the same with i1 Display 3 and i1 Pro but to the eye and to my camera there's a ton of difference! How can it be???
Need more info, both use 3dlut?

What is the same?

Sent from my 306SH
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post #3798 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post
I am frustrated... My monitor and my projector measures the same with i1 Display 3 and i1 Pro but to the eye and to my camera there's a ton of difference! How can it be???
I suspect, if all colours measure the same, what you are seeing is metameric failure.

See: http://www.lightillusion.com/percept...our_match.html

Steve
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post #3799 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
do they have the same brightness?
Yes, I brightness-matched them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
It's probably your set-up. How are you displaying the images simultaneously? Presumably you're using madVR since you're posting in this thread, but it can't render to two screens at once. Perhaps you have some color management going on that was not present when you did the measurements. More details on how the images are delivered to each screen compared to how you measured the screens is needed. Also, it's easier to start simple and compare single color neutral images first when doing this sort of test.
Sorry for being so vague. You are seeing windows desktop. So no 3DLUT. The monitor is using custom curves after ArgyllCMS/madVR calibration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baii View Post
Need more info, both use 3dlut?

What is the same?
White point (color temperature) is the same, as measured in DispcalGUI's interactive display adjustment. However, visually (and on camera) this isn't the case. The displays are: DLP Projector (RGB color wheel) and W-LED IPS monitor. The monitor was already calibrated and profiled by ArgyllCMS/madVR while the projector was calibrated by using in-built gain/bias controls.

I have to say... I purchased i1 Pro because I thought that my i1 Display 3 colorimeter was broken. But now I get the same data with the spectrophotometer! Talk about wasting money...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
I suspect, if all colours measure the same, what you are seeing is metameric failure.

See: http://www.lightillusion.com/percept...our_match.html

Steve
Wow... Thanks for the link. But I still don't get it... Say one display is yellowish/greenish to my eyes. While the other one is reddish/bluish to my eyes. How can both be rec.709?.. Since I have set color temperature on these photos using the lower image, you may think that the lower display is more accurate. But is this the case? :\

Last edited by Elix; 06-25-2015 at 05:09 AM.
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post #3800 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 05:05 AM
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Have you measured the gamut too?
You only mention white point and grey scale...

Steve

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post #3801 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Have you measured the gamut too?
You only mention white point and grey scale...

Steve
No, I haven't measured gamut. I have read the article you posted and find it extremely helpful. Actuall, this is what I've done already - I calibrated the projector 'by eye'. I still think it's a terrible idea because our eyes are very 'loose' in approaching dEs.
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post #3802 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 05:31 AM
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windows desktop = no color management.

try hcfr to check the curves for unmanaged environment and you will see they are not the "same"

fhoech, is that a way for argyll or dcg to compare display with curves loaded vs a standard colorspace? I believe now it need to be either emulate from created profile, or use the display native state.
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post #3803 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post
No, I haven't measured gamut. I have read the article you posted and find it extremely helpful. Actuall, this is what I've done already - I calibrated the projector 'by eye'. I still think it's a terrible idea because our eyes are very 'loose' in approaching dEs.
You need to measure the gamut - having grey scale and white accurate, but gamut unmatched will never be 'calibrated'.

Also, doing the white point match as described by 'Perceptual Colour Matching' is not to calibrate by eye, it is just setting the 'base-point' to match by eye, which is what the CIE observer is all about.

After that calibrate is performed as normal.

Steve

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post #3804 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baii View Post
windows desktop = no color management.

try hcfr to check the curves for unmanaged environment and you will see they are not the "same"
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
You need to measure the gamut - having grey scale and white accurate, but gamut unmatched will never be 'calibrated'.

Also, doing the white point match as described by 'Perceptual Colour Matching' is not to calibrate by eye, it is just setting the 'base-point' to match by eye, which is what the CIE observer is all about.

After that calibrate is performed as normal.

Steve
Will do. Thanks a lot! It is safer to assume that LCD monitor has been calibrated closer to the standard perceptually?
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post #3805 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks.
Will do. Thanks a lot! It is safer to assume that LCD monitor has been calibrated closer to the standard perceptually?
No, if you read the document all LCD's basically calibrate correctly 'technically'.
So you calibrate the white point technically, and then use that to set the white point on the projector to match visually.
But, do not use 100% white as there may be clipping in either display.

This is all in the 'Perceptual Colour Matching' page (or should be - I really must verify it ;o)

Steve

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post #3806 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
No, if you rad the document all LCD's basically calibrate correctly 'technically'.
So you calibrate the white point technically, and then use that to set the white point on the projector to match visually.
But, do not use 100% white as there may be clipping in either display.

This is all in the 'Perceptual Colour Matching' page (or should be - I really must verify it ;o)

Steve
'Technically' is what I meant to say, yes. Thank a lot, Steve, I learned something new today thanks to you!)
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post #3807 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Sorry for being so vague. You are seeing windows desktop. So no 3DLUT. The monitor is using custom curves after ArgyllCMS/madVR calibration.
Ok, so the two images should look different with colors since you have not matched the gamut of the two devices. The white portion should look similar if you have the correct gain tables loaded to the video card as determined by your ArgyllCMS calibration.

You should use HCFR and display an 80% neutral patch on the monitor and then measure it to make sure it's at D65. Then visually compare that to an 80% patch on the projector screen. Also measure the patch off the screen to verify it does or does not read the same as what you just measured from the monitor.
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post #3808 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 11:38 AM
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Ah - as Zoyd says, if you do not have the same feed going to both displays they will not match, unless you have 3D LUT calibration on both.

You can get grey scale to match, but without gamut matching via a 3D LUT they will never look the same.

Sorry I had assumed you were using the same feed to both displays to verify the calibration.

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post #3809 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by N3W813 View Post
Did a profile/3DLUT on my Sharp Elite with the latest software releases. Got great results. With all the changes Florian put into DispcalGUI 3.0, the process is so much simpler. I will be modifying the first post with new workflow soon.
I plan to follow the workflow soon. Any idea when you plan to modify the first post? Thanks for all your work.
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post #3810 of 3848 Old 06-25-2015, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I plan to follow the workflow soon. Any idea when you plan to modify the first post? Thanks for all your work.
fwiw v3 is pretty close to plug and play now. The default settings for madvr just work ime.
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