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post #3841 of 3868 Old 07-09-2015, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
you can use madVR to disable the gamma ramp and use the 3d lut for full calibration. after madVR is closed the gamma ramp calibration is used again.
madVR will handle this automatically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
is there really a way to force an icc profile for all games?
No, games don't use them. The only thing that affects games is the videoLUT (1D calibration affecting whitepoint/grayscale and single channels). There are ways to force the videoLUT, and some games may not reset them anyway.

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post #3842 of 3868 Old 07-11-2015, 04:39 PM
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I've been using dispcalGUI and ArgyllCMS for a while now to create 1DLUT's and 3DLUT's, but just now tested my 1DLUT properly and realized that 1DLUT's still raise my lowest black level point, even though the first set of entries for the .cal file are these:
BEGIN_DATA
0.00000000 0.00000000 0.00000000 0.00000000

Technically, doesn't that mean that the 1DLUT (.cal file) is using the lowest black level possible? When my TV is not using any LUT's at all, my brightness must be set to 46 for it to pass black level test (like this one - http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php ). Anything below 46 and the top-left square disappears entirely. However, once I apply 1DLUT with "0, 0, 0, 0" data for the lowest black level, I can reduce brightness from 46 to 44 and still see the top-left square. I checked and re-checked and I am at a loss as to how that is even possible...
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post #3843 of 3868 Old 07-15-2015, 06:32 AM
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I see no indication of raised black level. Near black values are not black. Black is only the 0,0,0 (or 16,1,6,16 in video levels) value.

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Originally Posted by Masharak View Post
When my TV is not using any LUT's at all, my brightness must be set to 46 for it to pass black level test (like this one - http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php ). Anything below 46 and the top-left square disappears entirely. However, once I apply 1DLUT with "0, 0, 0, 0" data for the lowest black level, I can reduce brightness from 46 to 44 and still see the top-left square.
Not sure why you are puzzled by this. It just means your TV's native tone response is different from the target used for the 3D LUT, which is pretty normal. If your TV's black level is low enough, and the native response follows a pure power curve closely, then it may visually crush the first one or two levels above black (but they may still measure distinctly from black, so not necessarily clipping). The 3D LUT may raise an incoming signal of e.g. 1,1,1 to 2,2,2 or some other higher value, to meet the chosen target tone response. If you then lower the black level, you may actually end up clipping some near-black values.
Also note that your browser's color management settings may influence how the test page you linked is displayed. You'll only get visually correct results if an appropriate display profile is assigned, and your browser is set to color manage untagged content (assuming sRGB as source color space). To set the black level correctly, you actually want to disable any form of color management, or use a test disc with any 3D LUT or other processing disabled.

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Last edited by fhoech; 07-15-2015 at 06:39 AM.
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post #3844 of 3868 Old 07-21-2015, 05:51 AM
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Is there a guide online that would explain why video playback needs a 3D LUT for accurate calibration but gaming only needs a 1D LUT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
you can use madVR to disable the gamma ramp and use the 3d lut for full calibration. after madVR is closed the gamma ramp calibration is used again.
madVR will handle this automatically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
is there really a way to force an icc profile for all games?
No, games don't use them. The only thing that affects games is the videoLUT (1D calibration affecting whitepoint/grayscale and single channels). There are ways to force the videoLUT, and some games may not reset them anyway.
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post #3845 of 3868 Old 07-21-2015, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sithuk View Post
Is there a guide online that would explain why video playback needs a 3D LUT for accurate calibration but gaming only needs a 1D LUT?
It's not about need, it's about support. Games usually don't support any form of color management, so in essence you have three options (which are not mutually exclusive):

  • Adjust the display (if possible) to match e.g. Rec. 709 / Rec. 1886 (i.e. use something like HCFR)
  • Use 1D LUT calibration to correct the gray balance and target a specific tone response (e.g. Rec. 1886)
  • Use an external 3D LUT box (e.g. eeColor)

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post #3846 of 3868 Old 07-21-2015, 07:15 AM
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Or hook into the game or the compositor (in windowed mode) and apply the 3DLUT on top of the game's graphics (though it will be an 8-bit -> 8-bit correction). I don't think a ready-made solution like that currently exists though (the extent of my ability to write hooks has been to keep a game from resetting the 1DLUT, but I think it'd be great if someone with more experience made a solution to apply 3DLUTs to everything). It'd be great if SweetFX could do it for instance.

Edit: Actually, I did find MasterEffect (works on top of ReShade) which claims to support 3DLUTs. I haven't tried it though, so I don't know what formats it supports.

Edit2: It seems to use a 256x16 pixel png file for the 3DLUT, which I assume corresponds with a 16x16x16 3DLUT. Looking at the code (line 2909 and on of ReShade.fx from MasterEffect 1.1.287) it might not be hard to change the size though. The calculation would be more straightforward if it were stored in a 3D texture, but I don't know if ReShade supports that.

Edit3: The ReShade forums seem to indicate that ReShade does not support 3D textures, hence the workaround. In theory you could probably translate a 4096x4096 2D texture (something GPUs should be able to fit) to 256x256x256 coordinates though.

Last edited by VerGreeneyes; 07-21-2015 at 10:10 AM.
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post #3847 of 3868 Old 07-21-2015, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VerGreeneyes View Post
Edit: Actually, I did find MasterEffect (works on top of ReShade) which claims to support 3DLUTs. I haven't tried it though, so I don't know what formats it supports.

Edit2: It seems to use a 256x16 pixel png file for the 3DLUT, which I assume corresponds with a 16x16x16 3DLUT. Looking at the code (line 2909 and on of ReShade.fx from MasterEffect 1.1.287) it might not be hard to change the size though. The calculation would be more straightforward if it were stored in a 3D texture, but I don't know if ReShade supports that.
Interesting. The 3D LUT functionality in MasterEffect seems to be a fairly recent addition. 16x16x16 is somewhat limited compared to madVR, but it's a starting point. I'm inclined to put the generation of compatible PNGs on the feature list for the next DCG devel snapshot, but it would be great if people could test if the current 3D LUT implementation in MasterEffect is actually working and usable first.

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post #3848 of 3868 Old 07-24-2015, 05:49 AM
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got it working and it's pretty easy too. after i learned that # is not to commentated a line.

here a screen with a custom ms paint splitscreen 3dlut: http://abload.de/img/working3dlutpys78.png

how about a new thread. i mean this has nothing to do with madVR.
|Tch0rT| likes this.
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post #3849 of 3868 Old 08-02-2015, 03:38 AM
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Forgive me if this has been covered somewhere, but I'm having an issue getting gamma/blacks to behave how I want them on my ST30 (plasma for those who dont know). I haven't seem to have been able to find a good setting for gamma calibration that doesn't end up doing something like raising my MLL, or blowing out the near-blacks. I'm actually happy with the sets native gamma response, but even if I set it all to native/measured/whatever with Dispcal, whenever I go to make the 3Dlut, it forces me to select a gamma setting, which ends up messing it up anyway.

Is there anyway to create a 3Dlut that just fixes saturation/greyscale etc, without messing with the gamma? Or can anyone tell me the best settings to use on a panasonic plasma as far as getting a gamma result that doesn't mess with black levels?

I'm using a i1D3 profiled off of a Colormunki photo.

Thanks
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post #3850 of 3868 Old 08-02-2015, 07:02 AM
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Oh wow - 3DLUT support in video games and dispcalGUI supports it! Where can I find a direct download link to ArgyllCMS 1.8 beta?
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post #3851 of 3868 Old 08-02-2015, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
[...]even if I set it all to native/measured/whatever with Dispcal, whenever I go to make the 3Dlut, it forces me to select a gamma setting,
If the display's native tone curve is different from the target, then the 3D LUT will adjust it to hit the target. You can adjust the tone curve parameters on the "3D LUT" tab. Increasing the output offset for example moves the target curve closer to a pure power function.

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post #3852 of 3868 Old 08-02-2015, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttnuagmada View Post
Forgive me if this has been covered somewhere, but I'm having an issue getting gamma/blacks to behave how I want them on my ST30 (plasma for those who dont know). I haven't seem to have been able to find a good setting for gamma calibration that doesn't end up doing something like raising my MLL, or blowing out the near-blacks.
I had similar issues trying to profile my plasmas.

This worked for me:
  1. Use the spectral sample for plasma. This gave me better accuracy than profiling off an i1pro (assuming my display hasn't drifted much from the pro calibration)
  2. Keep the meter off the screen (thanks sillysally for the tip!). I found that having a 1-2cm gap gave me much better results with not too much contribution from the ambient light.
  3. Run a slow calibration. I used a 2.2 gamma target with all input offset (which I guess may be a difficult target) but got very good results.
  4. Even a ~400 patches profile gave pretty good results with the calibration - you can try first with a low patch count and if the results are good, reuse the calibration and measure a few thousand patches.

The results on a zt60 are very close to the professional calibration with bt.1886 gamma, but with better dEs and improved near black response. Calibration with TV's controls clips level 17, the DCG/ArgyllCMS created 3dlut is able to control that too.

Last edited by zel; 08-02-2015 at 10:50 AM.
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post #3853 of 3868 Old 08-03-2015, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
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I had similar issues trying to profile my plasmas.

This worked for me:
  1. Use the spectral sample for plasma. This gave me better accuracy than profiling off an i1pro (assuming my display hasn't drifted much from the pro calibration)
  2. Keep the meter off the screen (thanks sillysally for the tip!). I found that having a 1-2cm gap gave me much better results with not too much contribution from the ambient light.
  3. Run a slow calibration. I used a 2.2 gamma target with all input offset (which I guess may be a difficult target) but got very good results.
  4. Even a ~400 patches profile gave pretty good results with the calibration - you can try first with a low patch count and if the results are good, reuse the calibration and measure a few thousand patches.

The results on a zt60 are very close to the professional calibration with bt.1886 gamma, but with better dEs and improved near black response. Calibration with TV's controls clips level 17, the DCG/ArgyllCMS created 3dlut is able to control that too.
I'll give these tips a shot when i try again this weekend. Personally I'd be happy if I could just get dispcal to do gamut and greyscale without even touching gamma, but im not sure how to do that.
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post #3854 of 3868 Old 08-04-2015, 06:29 AM
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I used a slightly older version of dispcalGUI (3.x.x.x I think) that allowed for 0-255 madVR 3DLUT. During my contrast testing with white bars flashing up to 235, I saw yellow bars flashing past bar 235. AFAIK from previous discussions this happened because I was unable to make my 100% IRE calibrated accurately. I had excess blue @ 100% IRE and there was not much I could do about it due to poor TV controls.

I thought this issue was fixed with ArgyllCMS 1.7.0. Does it actually affect anything? BD content uses 16-235, so yellow flashing bars past 235 would never be used, would they? Do some BD's use WTW? Now dispcalGUI allows only 16-235 3DLUT's for madVR. Does that prevent bars from flashing after 235 OR do I need to select 16-235 + clip WTW to prevent bars after 235 from flashing?
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post #3855 of 3868 Old 08-04-2015, 04:30 PM
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This time I created 3DLUT for my monitor, which has a very accurate White Balance @ 100% IRE, so there was no need to tinker with it for dispcalGUI/ArgyllCMS to make a great 3DLUT. I created 2 3DLUT's, one with "16-235" setting and the other with "16-235 + clip WTW" setting. The "16-235 + clip WTW" setting produced bars flashing past 235. "16-235" setting did NOT produce flashing bars past 235! I think their labels were switched accidentally because it should have been vice versa, shouldn't it have?
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post #3856 of 3868 Old 08-04-2015, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masharak View Post
The "16-235 + clip WTW" setting produced bars flashing past 235. "16-235" setting did NOT produce flashing bars past 235! I think their labels were switched accidentally because it should have been vice versa, shouldn't it have?
Which Argyll CMS version are you using? What's the collink command line look like?

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post #3857 of 3868 Old 08-11-2015, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zel View Post
I had similar issues trying to profile my plasmas.



This worked for me:
  1. Use the spectral sample for plasma. This gave me better accuracy than profiling off an i1pro (assuming my display hasn't drifted much from the pro calibration)
  2. Keep the meter off the screen (thanks sillysally for the tip!). I found that having a 1-2cm gap gave me much better results with not too much contribution from the ambient light.
  3. Run a slow calibration. I used a 2.2 gamma target with all input offset (which I guess may be a difficult target) but got very good results.
  4. Even a ~400 patches profile gave pretty good results with the calibration - you can try first with a low patch count and if the results are good, reuse the calibration and measure a few thousand patches.
The results on a zt60 are very close to the professional calibration with bt.1886 gamma, but with better dEs and improved near black response. Calibration with TV's controls clips level 17, the DCG/ArgyllCMS created 3dlut is able to control that too.


Really interested, can u please explain better the 3rd point thanks.
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post #3858 of 3868 Old 08-13-2015, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Which Argyll CMS version are you using? What's the collink command line look like?
I used version 1.7.0 x86 (but now switched to 1.7.0 x64). When I select 'Create "16-235 (clip WTW)" 3DLUT' (which results in yellow flashing bars past bar 235), here's what dispcalGUI log shows:
Quote:
16:01:21,527 Command line:
16:01:21,527 collink.exe
16:01:21,528 -v
16:01:21,529 -qh
16:01:21,529 -G
16:01:21,530 -iaw
16:01:21,531 -r65
16:01:21,531 -n
16:01:21,532 -3m
16:01:21,533 -eT
16:01:21,534 -Et
16:01:21,534 -b
16:01:21,535 -IB:0.0:2.4
16:01:21,536 -a
16:01:21,536 "#2 2015-08-12 15-18 0.3127x 0.329y Rec. 1886 S XYZLUT.cal"
16:01:21,537 Rec709.icm
16:01:21,538 "#2 2015-08-12 15-18 0.3127x 0.329y Rec. 1886 S XYZLUT.icm"
16:01:21,538 "#2 2015-08-12 15-18 0.3127x 0.329y Rec. 1886 S
16:01:21,539 XYZLUT.Rec709.B0.0,2.4GawTt65.icm"
When I select 'Create "16-235" 3DLUT' (which does NOT result in yellow flashing bars past bar 235), here's what dispcalGUI log shows:
Quote:
16:11:15,414 Command line:
16:11:15,415 collink.exe
16:11:15,415 -v
16:11:15,415 -qh
16:11:15,416 -G
16:11:15,416 -iaw
16:11:15,417 -r65
16:11:15,417 -n
16:11:15,417 -3m
16:11:15,418 -et
16:11:15,418 -Et
16:11:15,418 -b
16:11:15,419 -IB:0.0:2.4
16:11:15,419 -a
16:11:15,420 "#2 2015-08-12 15-18 0.3127x 0.329y Rec. 1886 S XYZLUT.cal"
16:11:15,420 Rec709.icm
16:11:15,420 "#2 2015-08-12 15-18 0.3127x 0.329y Rec. 1886 S XYZLUT.icm"
16:11:15,421 "#2 2015-08-12 15-18 0.3127x 0.329y Rec. 1886 S
16:11:15,421 XYZLUT.Rec709.B0.0,2.4Gawt65.icm"
When I was testing all this, I was using earlier (but still very recent) verison of dispcalGUI (the one that came out right before ReShade 3DLUT support).
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post #3859 of 3868 Old 08-20-2015, 01:44 PM
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Thank You gwgill.
@fhoech . Will the new version of argyllCMS work with the latest version of dispcalGUI

btw what does the "back hack" do.

ss
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post #3860 of 3868 Old 08-20-2015, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

btw what does the "back hack" do.

ss
I think it basically filters or disallows any data below 16 for (16-235) where level 16 would be 0 and no data below, anything past 235 gets through, although i'm sure Florian or Graeme would give a more in depth explanation.

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post #3861 of 3868 Old 08-20-2015, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
@fhoech . Will the new version of argyllCMS work with the latest version of dispcalGUI
Yes, it should. Let me know if you find something that doesn't, I'll fix it

Black hack forces the input black to output black for 3D LUTs (which is usually desired for video 3D LUTs). In DCG it's always active.

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post #3862 of 3868 Old 08-20-2015, 11:32 PM
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Is there any way to reduce the processing difficulty with running a 3D LUT? In about 1/4 of the film scenes I drop below 24fps and get stuttering when using a 3D LUT. Would reducing the size of the 3D LUT from DispcalGUI's default 65x65x65 give me a 3D LUT that will require less processor power to run, and might run smoother?

I can't seem to change the 3D LUT size from the default 65x65x65 as it is greyed out on DispcalGUI's 3D LUT tab. Does anyone know how I can change it, and what I should change it to to test whether my old laptop could run a smaller 3D LUT smoothly?
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post #3863 of 3868 Old 08-21-2015, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sithuk View Post
Is there any way to reduce the processing difficulty with running a 3D LUT?
You might be best asking that question in the MadVR forum.
Quote:
I can't seem to change the 3D LUT size from the default 65x65x65 as it is greyed out on DispcalGUI's 3D LUT tab.
The 65^3 actually gets up-sampled to a 256^3 for uploading to MadVR, so it wouldn't make any difference if you did change the device link resolution.
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post #3864 of 3868 Old 08-23-2015, 04:28 PM
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I'm trying ti make a 3dlut with last version of dispcalGUI

I selected 3dlut for madVr bit I'm not able to do only the 3D lut

Last edited by LucaT; 08-23-2015 at 04:46 PM.
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post #3865 of 3868 Old 08-23-2015, 08:33 PM
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With dispcalGUI I tried to make only the 3dlut (I had already calibrated my ZT60 with HCFR) but if I disabled the profiling it made grey the button "make 3d lut" and didn't allow me to do

So I had to make I all and then dispcalgui started and made all the procedure, profiling then created a 3dlut (about 2500 patches) and at the end it installed it (in madvr I found it already selected)

Now if I try to do "only" the 3dLut it allow me to do! Why not before?


Anyway trying a Movie on BD if I disable the 3dlut or enable it doesn't make any visual difference, is it possible??

Thanks

Last edited by LucaT; 08-23-2015 at 08:40 PM.
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post #3866 of 3868 Old 08-24-2015, 01:46 AM
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search for a problem named dispcalGUI 3D LUT Maker.
but yes the current behavior isn't optimal.

and about your no difference problem.
is a profile loaded in windows?
and what was the profile in your target profile? can you upload it?
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post #3867 of 3868 Old 08-24-2015, 03:42 AM
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post #3868 of 3868 Old Today, 02:48 AM
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I know nothing about calibrating monitors but I bought a Spyder5 today and was playing around with dispcalgui. I was able to create a icm for windows but I don't know if I created the 3dlut correctly for madvr. Dark scenes are brighter and show a lot more detail but I don't think thats right. Disabling the calibration in madvr shows dark scenes as dark. I noticed in dispalcalgui that input and output encoding is set to TV RGB 16-235, is this right for a computer monitor?

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