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Old 10-12-2015, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masharak View Post
Thanks! Does FRC get in the way of calibration?
In theory it shouldn't, as it allows for finer tuned grayscale steps, but maybe there's something else going, e.g. interference with madTPG's dithering. It's hard to know for sure.

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Old 10-12-2015, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
I haven't managed to reproduce such behaviour, as the ArgyllCMS tools make sure that they turn the pointer off before doing any sort of measurement.

I have noticed that the the K10 "guide light off" command sometimes returns bogus error codes and interferes with a subsequent measurement command though, so you could try this beta test snapshot of the relevant MSWin 64 bit tools, to see if they improve the situation or not.
Thank You. I will try it.

The last two calibration/profile's I ran there was NP.
However I didn't turn on the K10's guide light.

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Old 10-14-2015, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
I haven't managed to reproduce such behaviour, as the ArgyllCMS tools make sure that they turn the pointer off before doing any sort of measurement.

I have noticed that the the K10 "guide light off" command sometimes returns bogus error codes and interferes with a subsequent measurement command though, so you could try this beta test snapshot of the relevant MSWin 64 bit tools, to see if they improve the situation or not.
No luck with your tools.
See screen shot for results.

This link is to my last successful 3DLUT, using dispcalGUI 3.0.4.3 and ArgyllCMS 1.8.2
LG 55EF9500 and 65EF9500 OLED Owners Thread

UpdateSee screen shots for when pointer turns on.
Once I click OK pointer turns off.
Pointer turn on and off when the next screen shot came on.
I use dispcalGUI 3.0.4.3 and ArgyllCMS 1.8.2 non beta.
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Last edited by sillysally; 10-14-2015 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 10-14-2015, 09:34 PM
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What does it mean when madVR reports; -creating Direct3D device failed (8876086c)

It was working earlier this evening. I must have broken it.
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Old 10-15-2015, 07:52 AM
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You can change the whitepoint on the "Calibration" tab. Did you not use one of the 3D LUT presets?

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Old 10-16-2015, 01:41 AM
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haven't been here for a while... are there any news for LG OLED users with slow meters (i1 Display Pro) to avoid the LG dimming? Maybe an option for changing dark and light patches ?
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Old 10-16-2015, 02:46 AM
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the dimming doesn't happen on a small patch so use a really small madTPG window/patch size.
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Old 10-16-2015, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
the dimming doesn't happen on a small patch so use a really small madTPG window/patch size.
I dont think so. I used small patches (window size 10-18) but dimming does work even with this small ones. Not possible to make a 3DLut with i1DPro atm.
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Old 10-16-2015, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset1982 View Post
haven't been here for a while... are there any news for LG OLED users with slow meters (i1 Display Pro) to avoid the LG dimming? Maybe an option for changing dark and light patches ?
You could try this suggestion by @10k (use an automatically changing Windows background with dim pictures, and set madTPG to not use fullscreen)

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Old 10-17-2015, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset1982 View Post
I dont think so. I used small patches (window size 10-18) but dimming does work even with this small ones. Not possible to make a 3DLut with i1DPro atm.
with fullscreen and black background?
maybe try 5 % should be big enough for your sensor at contact mode.

the EC9300 was stable until 25%.

my source: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/lg/ec9300
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Old 10-17-2015, 11:04 AM
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GWGill,

I am not pulling this out of my butt on HardForums there was a member who talked about you (I think meeting you) at a color/calibration-science conference. I do NOT know if that is BS though.... He stated that spectro profiling for exact accuracy is not necessary due to eye adaptation and how you, yourself, firmly agreed with that. Supposedly, eyes adjust well when calibration error is exactly the same throughout all the measurements. For example, if i1Display Pro is mis-reading Red by 10% on whichever display, then eyes will easily adjust to a calibration where all of grayscale and all of color gamut have that exact 10% deviation. Eyes will not adapt if the error is different. For example, un-calibrated display may have completely messed up grayscale with too much Blue on 0-40% IRE and too little Green on 40-60% IRE and too much Red on 60-100% IRE, as well as, randomly inaccurate color gamut. In such messed up case, eyes won't adjust to see a calibrated picture.

What is your actual opinion? If the above is true, then does it even make sense to get a spectrometer to get better accuracy? It doesn't seem like it because eyes can adjust to an error that occurs throughout the calibration..

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Old 10-17-2015, 12:34 PM
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I think that is somewhat true, essentially how our eye adapt to different viewing conditions?
I.e viewing condition for print 5000k vs 6500 for digital consumption. So it depends on if the "accuracy" include viewing condition?
This is my view as a end user, not a scientist ~

Sent from my 306SH
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Old 10-18-2015, 03:41 AM
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What you are describing (I think) is a difference between Relative and Absolute calibration.
(As you say, that is not the same as having random calibration throughout the colour gamut and/or grey scale).

The human eye will indeed 'manage' consistent colour errors, effectively balancing them out relative to other colours.

A good example is when grading films (I have graded a fair few...).

As a colourist you get used to the need to keep referencing back to a 'pure white/grey scale' while grading to prevent you perception of colour from drifting during a grading session.

If you don't do that, after 30 minutes of grading you can easily be making wrong colour assumptions.
While you don't 'see' the errors at the time, walking out the grading room (for a coffee, etc) coming back into the room and looking at the exact same shot you were just grading can be a real shock!

So, we use perfect grey scale/white balance references to keep our eyes 'in calibration'.
I used a small light-box, with very accurate grey scale transparencies.

But, back to the original question - while such Relative errors can be 'assimilated' by the human eye, the issue is the Absolute colour error remains, and that means you are no longer seeing the colour as the DoP and Colourists intended, and that can alter your emotional perception of the images you are viewing.

Having a 'cooler' image generates a very different emotional response than a 'warmer' image, for example.

That makes accurate calibration rather important to me

Steve
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Old 10-18-2015, 08:23 AM
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Yes, that is exactly what I thought. I am just wondering whether i1Display Pro error (without spectro-profiling) can be big/high enough to create that different perception of a film.

BTW, does anybody know whether Japanese films shown or sold in the US use 6500K? I heard in Japan they use 9300K...

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Old 10-18-2015, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masharak View Post
Supposedly, eyes adjust well when calibration error is exactly the same throughout all the measurements.
We are known to chromatically adapt to a wide range of white points, but note there is some in nuance in this. We adapt best along the black body locus direction, and less well in other directions. Adaptation becomes poorer at extremes, and is influence by more than just the image we are looking at - the white point of the surround and ambient will affect our perception. So in practice, and in isolation (i.e. not comparing multiple side by side displays), an error in the absolute white point of a display is likely to be a lot less visually significant that other aspects of a calibration, particularly if the error is in the blue/yellow direction rather than green/purple direction.
Quote:
If the above is true, then does it even make sense to get a spectrometer to get better accuracy? It doesn't seem like it because eyes can adjust to an error that occurs throughout the calibration..
That depends how grossly inaccurate the colorimeter is, and in what direction the error lies. One of the quandries is that without some higher accuracy reference, you don't know what the error is.
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Old 10-19-2015, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
See screen shot for results.
I'm unable to reproduce the sequence you show using the computers screen - the target LEDs flash and the measurements commence immediately without the dialog "Place the instrument on the test window and click OK to continue" appearing - which is a little odd.

If I select a remote display (ChromeCast in my testing), then the above dialog
does appear and the LED target is turned on, but it turns off immediately I click OK.

This is using ArgyllCMS V1.8.2 and dispcalGUI 3.0.4.3, and the K-10A has firmware v01.09fh.

I'm not sure what difference between this and your setup is triggering the problem.

If you run the "spotread" tool from the command line with your K-10A plugged in, does hitting 't' reliably toggle the LED target lights on and off ?
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Old 10-19-2015, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
[...] the measurements commence immediately without the dialog "Place the instrument on the test window and click OK to continue" appearing - which is a little odd.
The "Place instrument ..." message box should only appear when madTPG is not set to use fullscreen mode (in fullscreen mode, there should be a countdown instead in the madTPG window), although at the start of the interactive display adjustment step, dispcalGUI will instruct madTPG to leave fullscreen (because otherwise the interactive adjustment window may be potentially obstructed), so if interactive display adjustment is not disabled the message should always appear. Fullscreen mode is then restored for the characterization measurements. This is somewhat clunky, but I wanted to avoid people not being aware of a window waiting for user interaction behind a fullscreened madTPG.

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Old 10-19-2015, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
UpdateSee screen shots for when pointer turns on.
Once I click OK pointer turns off.
Pointer turn on and off when the next screen shot came on.
I use dispcalGUI 3.0.4.3 and ArgyllCMS 1.8.2 non beta.
I'm not sure anymore the problem you're seeing is related to the pointer LED. From what you describe, the pointer behaves as I would expect from what Graeme said, i.e:

- Pointer turns on when dispcal.exe is launched at the start of the interactive display adjustment step. After you press OK in the "Place instrument ..." message, the pointer turns off (this is equivalent to pressing a key when using dispcal.exe on the command line).
- After interactive adjustment, dispcal.exe exits and dispread.exe starts for the characterization measurements. Pointer turns on when dispread.exe starts, then turns off when dispcalGUI recognizes that dispread is waiting for keyboard input and sends a keypress to start measurements (no user interaction at this point).

Maybe something else is going on that causes the bad result you're getting sometimes?

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Old 10-19-2015, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
I'm not sure anymore the problem you're seeing is related to the pointer LED. From what you describe, the pointer behaves as I would expect from what Graeme said, i.e:

- Pointer turns on when dispcal.exe is launched at the start of the interactive display adjustment step. After you press OK in the "Place instrument ..." message, the pointer turns off (this is equivalent to pressing a key when using dispcal.exe on the command line).
- After interactive adjustment, dispcal.exe exits and dispread.exe starts for the characterization measurements. Pointer turns on when dispread.exe starts, then turns off when dispcalGUI recognizes that dispread is waiting for keyboard input and sends a keypress to start measurements (no user interaction at this point).

Maybe something else is going on that causes the bad result you're getting sometimes?
I am not saying that ArgyllCMS, DispcalGUI or madVR is causing any issues.
Mater of fact I got Graeme beta tools to work using DispcalGUI 3.0.4.3, results where as expected.

I have run three successful profiles in a row.
As long as I don't use interactive display adjustment and stop, then click on the calibration tab.
I can use interactive display adjustment step, once done hit stop and cancel. Then close dispcalGUI, unplug K10 and plug back in, start dispcalGUI hit com ports button then just go directly to the calibration/profile button.

On a side note, using madTPG APL Linear, using on screen mode for meter. I can run your largest slider testchart 11,000+ points and calibration, Graeme K10 meter delay without a misread as far as I can tell. Works for both the LG EG9600 and LG EF9500 65" OLED's.

Using Graeme beta tools he kindly posted for me and the K10-A. There seems to be a raising of the Luminace reads for 5% thru 15%, from using the 1.8.2 non beta tools.

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Setup dispcalGUI, 2nd link settings for 65EF9500
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http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post39870898
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Old 10-19-2015, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post

This is using ArgyllCMS V1.8.2 and dispcalGUI 3.0.4.3, and the K-10A has firmware v01.09fh.

I'm not sure what difference between this and your setup is triggering the problem.

If you run the "spotread" tool from the command line with your K-10A plugged in, does hitting 't' reliably toggle the LED target lights on and off ?
I need to check what firmware my K10-A has.

No I haven't but will try "spotread" command line.
As I said I can see the LED target light come on and off using dispcalGUI 3.0.4.3

The one thing I am unclear about, is why have the K10-A's LED target light come on at all.?
Wouldn't it be for the best if argyllCMS never turned on/off the target light, and fhoech just added a manual toggle switch for the K10-A's LED target light.?

Thanks Graeme and fhoech.

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http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post39870898
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Old 10-19-2015, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
The one thing I am unclear about, is why have the K10-A's LED target light come on at all.?
I think it's reasonable that the pointer LED turns on when starting one of the Argyll CMS tools, as this is the time when a user will typically position the instrument for display readings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Wouldn't it be for the best if argyllCMS never turned on/off the target light, and fhoech just added a manual toggle switch for the K10-A's LED target light.?
I'm still not really sure I understand the problem, i.e. the pointer LED turning on and off before readings start should not influence the readings at all. It would only pose a problem if the pointer stayed ON during the readings for some reason. I would suspect this could happen due to a race condition, for example (when using Argyll CMS on the command line, user reaction time when asked to press a key is usually anywhere from roughly half a second to several seconds, but when run via dispcalGUI there's no user interaction when characterization follows the interactive adjustment step, and the delay between dispcalGUI recognizing the "press any key" message from Argyll CMS and actually sending the key is mere milliseconds, so I assume the pointer will be turned on and off without much of a delay and maybe the K-10 has issues with that, i.e. maybe it ignores a "turn the pointer off" command when it follows too rapidly after a "turn pointer on" command. I'm just speculating though).

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Old 10-19-2015, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
The "Place instrument ..." message box should only appear when madTPG is not set to use fullscreen mode
It doesn't seem to be working that way. I had it set to use my main computer screen in window mode, and there was no "Place instrument.." message for the K10 or the i1d3. It did show this message for a remote test window (ChromeCast).
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Old 10-19-2015, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
As long as I don't use interactive display adjustment and stop, then click on the calibration tab.
Right, so just this sequence causes you problems ?

I don't seem to be able to reproduce the issue though. The LED taret lights go out for me and stay out after clicking "OK", and don't go on again after hitting "stop" during interactive adjustment.

Quote:
Using Graeme beta tools he kindly posted for me and the K10-A. There seems to be a raising of the Luminace reads for 5% thru 15%, from using the 1.8.2 non beta tools.
Hmm. I do notice a bug in there, although I would think it was in V1.8.2 as well. You could try this, to see if the black measurements are more stable.
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Old 10-19-2015, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
The one thing I am unclear about, is why have the K10-A's LED target light come on at all.?
Wouldn't it be for the best if argyllCMS never turned on/off the target light, and fhoech just added a manual toggle switch for the K10-A's LED target light.?
ArgyllCMS operates stand-alone. Each tool that does display measurements needs to give the user a chance to see where the test patch window will appear, and therefore where they should place the instrument. So each time such a tool starts, by default it displays a grey test window, and asks to user to position the instrument before moving on. This is the time to turn instrument guide lights/lasers on, because this is precisely the time it can and should be used, and minimises the number of interactions needed with the user.
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Old 10-20-2015, 01:16 PM
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I got a strange problem with dispcalgui and my new i1Display Pro.

I bought a new i1D Pro and since then I got a "Error-display read failes with'instrument access failed'" message. The new meter is rev.b.

the old one is rev. a and works flawless... any idea?
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Old 10-20-2015, 01:54 PM
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Hello guys, what is the best way to measure the white balance? I have noticed that the results of the measurements are different if a move the windows of dispacalgui on the screen at the same time when Madtpg is open and measuring... Actually I leave madtpg use full screen and I swap quickly with alt/tab to check the measurements of the WB without anything else on the screen to not skew the results...
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Old 10-20-2015, 02:40 PM
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Before the launch of the calibration I have a message asking if I want to use linear calibration or enable calibration curves in the profile... Could you please let me know what is the best to use??? Many thanks
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Old 10-20-2015, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Right, so just this sequence causes you problems ?

I don't seem to be able to reproduce the issue though. The LED taret lights go out for me and stay out after clicking "OK", and don't go on again after hitting "stop" during interactive adjustment.
Yes that is the sequence that causes me problems.
I have seen the LED target light go on after that sequence.

I ran my third profile last night, used my new method to work around what I think the issue is, and it looks like that profile came out as expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Hmm. I do notice a bug in there, although I would think it was in V1.8.2 as well. You could try this, to see if the black measurements are more stable.
Thank You I will try your new tools.
I haven't installed the 3DLUT's from last night's profile. Once I install in eecolor and measure using CM and the Lumagen 2041 as pattern generator. I will have a better idea on how the old beta worked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
ArgyllCMS operates stand-alone. Each tool that does display measurements needs to give the user a chance to see where the test patch window will appear, and therefore where they should place the instrument. So each time such a tool starts, by default it displays a grey test window, and asks to user to position the instrument before moving on. This is the time to turn instrument guide lights/lasers on, because this is precisely the time it can and should be used, and minimises the number of interactions needed with the user.
I just find it better to setup the meter using a cross hair window before I start any interaction with calibrate and profiling. madTPG window is always centered as is the Lumagen's window. So from making a meter profile matrix (using Chromasurf), pre calibration (using Calman), white point target, calibration and profiling (using argyllCMS) my meter is always reading from the same spot.
iow once I set my meter/s placement, there is no need to reset it.

ss

"Don't worry be happy"
Setup dispcalGUI, 2nd link settings for 65EF9500
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post35174522
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post39870898
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Old 10-20-2015, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by yokbob View Post
Before the launch of the calibration I have a message asking if I want to use linear calibration or enable calibration curves in the profile... Could you please let me know what is the best to use??? Many thanks
It seems you have disabled interactive display adjustment. If you haven't done a calibration before, it won't make a difference (the calibration curves will be linear either way). If you have done a calibration before, you can use it.

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Old 10-20-2015, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunset1982 View Post
I got a strange problem with dispcalgui and my new i1Display Pro.

I bought a new i1D Pro and since then I got a "Error-display read failes with'instrument access failed'" message. The new meter is rev.b.

the old one is rev. a and works flawless... any idea?
Was this when reading dark patches ?

If you are using a MSWin64 system, you could try replacing the ArgyllCMS V1.8.2 tools with the ones from here.
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