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Old 11-25-2015, 06:20 AM
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I think 3dlut maker should include a custom gamma target editor, so we can create any kind of gamma target we would like.
There is a lot of people in my case who can't reach a good grayscale at very low ires (between 0-5%).
The 17 blanking bar is at approximately 1.25%. A 100 points gamma editor would be amazing for us.

I tried to decrease the gamma @1.25% with videoequalizer v2.06. It works but it's not compatible with a 3dlut and it's a non sense since we already have a 3dlut.

Any chance to have an update one day?
Maybe I should also ask madshi

Thanks!

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Old 11-25-2015, 06:38 AM
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Hi guys!

I created a LUT with dispcalgui for my eecolor, picture is OUTSTANDING!
Now I have 1 question, what is the setting if I want create a real BT1886 Gamma with black level offset, not Power 2,4 Gamma. I do not understand it completely how to set it correctly on the LUT Creator...

If someone could explain me I would be very pleased
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Old 11-25-2015, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlj11 View Post
Now I have 1 question, what is the setting if I want create a real BT1886 Gamma with black level offset, not Power 2,4 Gamma.
I'm not sure what you mean. BT.1886 by design always takes the black level into account (=offset), only on a display with a black level of zero will BT.1886 be equivalent with a gamma 2.4 curve.

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Old 11-25-2015, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
I think 3dlut maker should include a custom gamma target editor, so we can create any kind of gamma target we would like.
You can already create custom synthetic profiles.

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Old 11-25-2015, 02:29 PM
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Humm yes and no. It's not really a gamma editor. I would like a gamma editor from 0 to 100% to generate my gamma curve target . Then I will be able to modify the gamma curve from 0 to 5% to be able to not crush 17 and 18 flashing bars. A tool like videoequalizer.
I have no choice. I want to keep my 0% black and just lower the gamma between 0 to 5%. It would be so cool.

Many of us are experiencing the same problem. i1d3 measure our display with a perfect black and the result is always a linear gamma from 0 to 100%. As a consequence the blacks are crushed between 0 to approximately 2.5%.

I'm not sure if it's clear...

Thanks fhoech

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Old 11-25-2015, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
I'm not sure what you mean. BT.1886 by design always takes the black level into account (=offset), only on a display with a black level of zero will BT.1886 be equivalent with a gamma 2.4 curve.
Hi. I get a flat 2,4 Gamma with the settings on the screenshot. I hope I can upload the picture...

http://up.picr.de/23809519sp.jpg

If I set blackleveloffset to 100%, maybe the I should get a BT1886 Gamma?
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Old 11-26-2015, 12:12 AM
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@dlj11 ,
if your probe measure 0ftl @ 0% (or can't measure your 0% black level) then you will have a linear gamma from 0 to 100% because dispcalgui consider that you have a display with infinite contrast ratio.
You can set black level from 0 to 100% you will always have a linear gamma.

@fhoech
Do you think it could be possible to create a tool in madvr to modify the gamma curve in realtime after the 3dlut? Maybe I can ask madshi...
I know it's a non sense for you but the idea is not to make a new gamma curve but only to correct the grayscale with our eyes at very low ire because the i1d3 can't.

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Last edited by Francois76l; 11-26-2015 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 11-26-2015, 01:12 AM
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I have a KURO 6090, I dont know the mll number measured by dispcalgui. On CalMAN i get about 0,005 cd/m². Maybe you´re right, I profiled on non-contact mode so maybe the black level was not captured precisely... Have not thought about this
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Old 11-26-2015, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
Humm yes and no. It's not really a gamma editor. I would like a gamma editor from 0 to 100% to generate my gamma curve target . Then I will be able to modify the gamma curve from 0 to 5% to be able to not crush 17 and 18 flashing bars. A tool like videoequalizer.
I have no choice. I want to keep my 0% black and just lower the gamma between 0 to 5%. It would be so cool.

Many of us are experiencing the same problem. i1d3 measure our display with a perfect black and the result is always a linear gamma from 0 to 100%. As a consequence the blacks are crushed between 0 to approximately 2.5%.

I'm not sure if it's clear...

Thanks fhoech
can you see 17 before calibration?
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Old 11-26-2015, 08:11 AM
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Yes because my gamma is not linear without the 3dlut. It start at 2.3
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Old 11-26-2015, 01:57 PM
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can you change the test chart to custom and change these values:
neutral patches 256
interactive patches 8
single channel patches 8
multidimensional 2

create this test chart and run a fast and dirty calibration and just check for 17?

this way argyllCMS is reading 17 and knows the difference between 16 and 17 for sure.
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Old 11-26-2015, 03:37 PM
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Hello mightyhuhn,
It's the same. I still have a linear 2.4 gamma and it's my problem. My JVC can't make a linear 2.4 gamma at low ires. And I absolutely don't want a 2.2 gamma in my dedicated projection room. A 2.4 gamma offer me a very high contrast, the picture looks like 3d. It's just perfect.
But in my case I have to start from 2.2, 2.3 @0 ire and 2.4 from 10 to 100ires to be able to have a perfect grayscale.

Lightspace offer tools for specify the gamma curve on 100 points:
"The Lightspace Custom Color Space Creator allows you to create custom color spaces with fully customizable gamut and gamma (including the new Lightspace parametric gamma controls).

These custom color spaces can be used in Lightspace within the Colour Space Conversion tool as a source for the LUT that is being created.

You can freely define the color space gamut and in addition, the new parametric gamma controls of Lightspace allow you to fully customize your gamma with up to 100 gamma adjustment points, which is a dramatic help for displays and projectors that struggle outputting a constant gamma.

As an example, you can create a custom color space with the common consumer Rec 709 gamut, use the common gamma of 2.2 as a starting point, and then make adjustments along the gamma curve to compensate for the display's gamma inconsistencies."

If dispcalgui could have a similar tool it would be fantastic but I think it's a lot of work for the developers.
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Old 11-26-2015, 04:04 PM
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This sort of functionality exists in ArgyllCMS using the refine tool in conjunction with collink -p. I've used it with photoshop to create specific look profiles and PS has parametric gamma editing. Not sure how hard this would be to implement in DCG
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Old 11-26-2015, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
Hello mightyhuhn,
It's the same. I still have a linear 2.4 gamma and it's my problem. My JVC can't make a linear 2.4 gamma at low ires. And I absolutely don't want a 2.2 gamma in my dedicated projection room. A 2.4 gamma offer me a very high contrast, the picture looks like 3d. It's just perfect.
But in my case I have to start from 2.2, 2.3 @0 ire and 2.4 from 10 to 100ires to be able to have a perfect grayscale.
it's impossible that the projector can't do a gamma like 2.4 using a 3D LUT. if 16 and 17 have a different color than you can create colors between them using dither what madVR does.
in worst case it will look terrible noisy but not the same

can use read 17 and 16 and see if they are truely not different and you simply don't see the difference anymore because the CR is to high for the human eye?

after this you can try to aim for the black in 17 and see if this makes a difference.
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Old 11-26-2015, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois76l View Post
Lightspace offer tools for specify the gamma curve on 100 points:
There's a fair degree of flexibility in the current ArgyllCMS as it is, without having to tweak 100 settings to get what you want. The collink -Ib option has up to two parameters :- the gamma and and the proportion of the black offset to assign to input vs. output. The more you assign the offset to the output, the deeper the shadows will become.

If you are measuring a zero black from your display, but in your actual viewing environment the black is not so low, then the most practical thing would be to back the meter off the display somewhat, so that you are measuring something a little closer to your actual viewing situation. The measuring environment has to be better controlled of course.

The other option of course is for you to just use Lightspace, if that is what you prefer.
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Old 11-27-2015, 12:21 AM
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Dear Zoyd, Gwgill and Fhoech,

the idea is not to use lightspace. I really like the couple dispcalgui+argyll. I have very accurate colors and I'm really happy with my calibration.
I'm just looking for a solution to be able to see the 17-18 flashing bars. In my case 18 is visible but 17 is clipped. And I'm not alone to have this phenomeon.
With the JVC gamma editor, it works but the gamma editor have only 20 points (5% steps) and 17-18 are below 5%.

My room is totally dedicated with black tissues on the walls, black velvet on the ceiling and black carpeting and my JVC x35 produce very low black luminance.

In my environment it looks superb but the grayscale below 5% could be better. I'm just asking if there is a way to correct this.

Anyway thanks all for this incredible tool. I tried other calibration softwares but I prefer dispcalgui+argyll.

++
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Old 11-27-2015, 12:28 AM
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@mightyhuhn
This is my current grayscale measurement after a little modification in the jvc gamma editor @5%.
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Old 11-27-2015, 01:53 AM
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this doesn't tell me if 17 is 0 or not
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Old 11-27-2015, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
it's impossible that the projector can't do a gamma like 2.4 using a 3D LUT. if 16 and 17 have a different color than you can create colors between them using dither what madVR does.
in worst case it will look terrible noisy but not the same

can use read 17 and 16 and see if they are truely not different and you simply don't see the difference anymore because the CR is to high for the human eye?

after this you can try to aim for the black in 17 and see if this makes a difference.
mightyhuhn, my projector can do a 2.4 linear gamma from 0 to 100%. But the problem is that in my case, the difference at low ires are so tiny that I can't see it. It's why i'm looking for a way to make a cusom gamma curve between 0 to 5 ires. A gamma rising between 0 and 5% (2.3@0% and 2.4@5% for example)
Look at what gwgill said few posts before (11-06-2015):
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Because that's what you asked for !

With an assumed perfect black and high gamma, the first couple of steps are so tiny, they can't be seen.

i.e. (1/219)^2.4 * 100 cd/m = 0.00025 cd/m.

If you think you should be seeing those steps then your gamma is too high or you need a black offset (i.e. perhaps your viewing environment i.e. glare is imposing a non-perfect black)

or

your gamma is correct and you are not intended to see those steps.

It's one or the other - it can't be both.
If you measure the gamma on reference projectors as Samsung SP-A800 // A900 you will see that the average gamma is approximately 2.6 and the gamma start at 2.4 (0%) to 2.8 (100%). By this way you have a high average gamma with a perfect grayscale. I think you can't have a linear gamma with very high gamma values (>2.4). Maybe I'm wrong but with my jvc it's not possible.
This is why I don't want a 2.2 gamma. At 2.2 the picture is totally flat and I really don't like that. I know that the max gamma I can have on my jvc is 2.4 but I have to tweak the gamma curve at low ires.

maybe my demand look stupid, sorry for that

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Old 11-27-2015, 02:14 AM
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so why make the gamma curve incorrect? just lower the CR by setting a black point target.

you can't see the difference anyway so there is nothing to lose.
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Old 11-27-2015, 02:26 AM
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What is a correct gamma curve? There is no rule for the moment.
I don't want to lower the CR.

This is the gamma of a samsung SP-A800 (JKP Edition). For you it's correct or incorrect?
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Old 11-27-2015, 02:34 AM
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in term of BT 1886 and BT 709 it is clearly incorrect.

and what is the point of an CR your eyes can't use?
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Old 11-27-2015, 04:03 AM
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BT1886 is not a standard yet and for BT.709, gamma 2.2 is not really a standard.
There is no fixed norm fully respected especially for the gamma on masters.
There are a lot of editing in the studio and a lot of technicians sometimes tend to play cursors to set grayscale watchable on a 2.2 gamma.
The films are perfectly adjusted when viewed with a gamma-type CRT.

Concerning Joe Kane, most major Hollywood studios and television regularly use him as a consultant expert in video.
He is a world renowned figure in the world of video.
http://www.videoessentials.com/about...-joe-kane.html

As I said, the samsung SP-A800 or better A900 are references projectors. You can't say the gamma is incorrect.

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Old 11-27-2015, 04:32 AM
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no there are clear specs and the gamma readings from that projector is a mess nothing else.

https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r...3-I!!PDF-E.pdf

the bt 709 gamma is 2.22 but gamma should be matched to the brightness in a room that's why 2.4 was the way to go in the past years.

you should get what you need by creating a bt 709 profile with the gamma you want and settings this as the source in the 3D LUT creating tool.

but correct is something else and you gain absolutely nothing compared to a change black point.
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Old 11-27-2015, 04:52 AM
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This is the gamma curve based on a Sony bvm monitor which is being use by major cinema studios. People like to think there are all using ITU norm but it's not the case
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Old 11-27-2015, 05:00 AM
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they can be calibrated too and who said they are even feeding bt 709?
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Old 11-27-2015, 05:07 AM
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You're probably right :-) And this is a mastering reference monitor! We will never know until there is no a true standard being adopted by all the studios.
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Old 11-27-2015, 07:56 AM
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Graeme: I was wondering about something. Since we make various compromises to the ideal grayscale curve during calibration, to try and preserve display black and do something reasonable for dark shades of gray, shouldn't colprof (perhaps via targen) take these compromises into account?

That is, it seems odd for us to pass options like "-k0" and "-b" to dispcal, knowing that our displays and calibrators are imperfect, only for colprof to ignore them and strive for a perfect result that we already know can't be achieved (because the hue of the black point doesn't match the hue of the white point, for instance), and which we explicitly chose not to aim for during calibration. Or am I just missing something?
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Old 12-03-2015, 10:12 PM
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I am thinking about doing a HTPC using something like this. http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-8900-de...s-8900-desktop

My question is will madVR be able to handle 4K/UHD video 3DLUT's.?

It looks like ArgyllCMS/DispcalGUI will be able to profile and make 3DLUT's for 4K video.

I would be sending the processed 4K video out via HDMI 2.0 to my 4K OLED.

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Setup dispcalGUI, 2nd link settings for 65EF9500
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http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...l#post39870898
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Old 12-03-2015, 10:53 PM
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That dell is not a good form factor for htpc. You are in luck though, DisplayPort->hdmi2.0 adapter cables should be avaiable this month ( http://club-3d.com/index.php/product...e-adapter.html ). These will support hdcp2.2 and hd audio formats.

3dlut with Madvr requires almost no gpu power, so something like and i3 NUC plus that DisplayPort->hdmi cable would give you a nice small form factor, with built in IR receiver.

The downside of Madvr and 4K is that if you want to do any of the higher quality up scaling you will need around a gtx980 ti, which is neither cheap or quiet.
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Calibrated settings for: Sony x930d (update: 4/8/16) | LG 65EF9500
4k60hz fanless HTPC build
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