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Old 04-02-2016, 06:57 AM
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Something odd, madtpg no longer displayson my screen. It shows as open on the taskbar, and can preview it by hovering over it but it just will not show on my screen. Anyone got any ideas?


Edit - fixed.

Last edited by iSeries; 04-02-2016 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:54 PM
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Hi guys, me again. How does this look?
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Old 04-02-2016, 08:02 PM
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There is a verify function in dispcal.

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Old 04-05-2016, 04:51 AM
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Verification of icc profile

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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Where are these icm profile located and how do they get loaded into Windows? I couldn't find any info in the docs about this.
Does it work automatically when I crate a 3dlut with madvr profile?
(I'm still using v3.0.6)
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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Note that you don't really need to concern yourself with this, but they are in C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color
Thanks, I found the folder. (And I upgraded to 3.1.2 version.)
As it turned out I can't use the generated icm file from a madvr profile, can I?
So, I choose and ran an "Office & Web" profile (to create an icm file for the desktop). But the Verification tab doesn't correspond to the selected Office profile: Simulation profile is checked. Is it a bug?
If I understand it correctly at the part "Checking accuracy of a display profile" of http://displaycal.net/#verify-profile , I only have to select an RGB type of testchart/reference (like: "2008 color accuracy and grayscale" or "XXXL verification") and deselect the Simulation profile. Is that right?
Because I tried to verify the verification with HCFR, but I don't know, again, what kind of color space standard I shall choose for this (sRGB?); and its measurement gave me different results.

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Old 04-05-2016, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
As it turned out I can't use the generated icm file from a madvr profile, can I?
You can, but note that by default, the 3D LUT presets don't do 1D LUT calibration which may be desirable for a desktop monitor profile.

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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
So, I choose and ran an "Office & Web" profile (to create an icm file for the desktop).
That's fine.

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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
But the Verification tab doesn't correspond to the selected Office profile: Simulation profile is checked. Is it a bug?
Note that the non-3D LUT presets don't influence verification settings, and so they'll just be what was last used.

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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
If I understand it correctly at the part "Checking accuracy of a display profile" of http://displaycal.net/#verify-profile , I only have to select an RGB type of testchart/reference (like: "2008 color accuracy and grayscale" or "XXXL verification") and deselect the Simulation profile. Is that right?
If you want to check the profile accuracy (i.e. how well the profile predicts the actual monitor gamut and response), then yes.

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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Because I tried to verify the verification with HCFR, but I don't know, again, what kind of color space standard I shall choose for this (sRGB?); and its measurement gave me different results.
There's no matching option in HCFR I think (it ignores the display profile, only the video card gamma tables affect HCFR measurements), so the verifications are not comparable in this case.

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Old 04-05-2016, 10:30 AM
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Thanks for the explanation!
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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
You can, but note that by default, the 3D LUT presets don't do 1D LUT calibration which may be desirable for a desktop monitor profile.
How? Manually copying the icm file from the profile folder? Because the corresponding options (install, load, etc...) are greyed out in the menu, if I select an old madvr profile.
I also skipped the 1D LUT calibration (by setting everything to measured on the calibration tab), I got better results with this when I used a madvr profile.
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Old 04-05-2016, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
How? Manually copying the icm file from the profile folder? Because the corresponding options (install, load, etc...) are greyed out in the menu, if I select an old madvr profile.
Select your profile under "Settings", then your actual display (not madVR) on the "Display & instrument" tab, then click the "install" button next to "Settings" while on the same tab.

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Old 04-05-2016, 01:54 PM
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Now I'm getting more confused (again, since I don't know anything about )
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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Select your profile under "Settings", then your actual display (not madVR) on the "Display & instrument" tab, then click the "install" button next to "Settings" while on the same tab.
It worked (I'd never think of that ): it complained about smissing high quality tables then it generated it and installed it. But:
1. I don't see any difference on a picture when I enabling/disabling it (icm file generated from an madvr profile)! (Applying that 3DLUT in madvr shows a huge difference in picture.)
Strange thing is that I created one of the Office profile with the same UI settings (everything set to Measured on the Calibration tab) (without the 3DLUT generation) and it shows a huge difference when I enable it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
You can, but note that by default, the 3D LUT presets don't do 1D LUT calibration which may be desirable for a desktop monitor profile.
2. Shall the Tone curve set to something else than Measured? (All the rest are set as Measured on the Calibration tab when I use the Office setting).

3. According to the first post here http://www.lightillusion.com/forums/...rum=8&topic=28 , "ICC profiles generated from 3D LUTs, as with SpaceMan ICC, will be 100% accurate". Is it the case with DisplayCal as well? (Of course it's not working for me now, see 1.)
If it's true than this would be the way to go.

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Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
If you want to check the profile accuracy (i.e. how well the profile predicts the actual monitor gamut and response), then yes.
4. Err... Why, do I want to do something different during this kind of verification?

5. Again from that first post (which I didn't know): "Such calibration uses 1D LUTs only in a form called VCGT, and WILL ONLY match the colour temperature and gamma of a display - NOT the gamut."
Is it the cause that we shouldn't set a Simulation profile on the verification tab?

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Old 04-05-2016, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post

There's no matching option in HCFR I think (it ignores the display profile, only the video card gamma tables affect HCFR measurements), so the verifications are not comparable in this case.
This is correct, in HCFR you can enable or disable the video card gamma tables when sending patterns.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
1. I don't see any difference on a picture when I enabling/disabling it (icm file generated from an madvr profile)!
Only ICC color managed applications will make use of the display profile, much in the same vein as not all applications support (video) 3D LUTs.

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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
2. Shall the Tone curve set to something else than Measured? (All the rest are set as Measured on the Calibration tab when I use the Office setting).
The "Office" preset (like most other "PC" monitor presets) uses gamma 2.2 by default.

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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
3. According to the first post here http://www.lightillusion.com/forums/...rum=8&topic=28 , "ICC profiles generated from 3D LUTs, as with SpaceMan ICC, will be 100% accurate". Is it the case with DisplayCal as well?
I'm not sure what you're asking, since DisplayCAL doesn't generate ICC profiles from 3D LUTs, but the other way around.

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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
4. Err... Why, do I want to do something different during this kind of verification?
Possibly, maybe. For (video) 3D LUTs, there's really only one way to verify them - using the source colorspace they've been created against (e.g. Rec 709 BT 1886) as verification target. ICC profiles are linked on-the-fly, so when no specific source colorspace is chosen, you check the profile against the native display measurements, which will tell you how accurate the profile is. You can also do a similar check as with a 3D LUT by setting a simulation (source) colorspace (it's important in that case that "Use simulation profile as target" is not enabled).

Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
5. Again from that first post (which I didn't know): "Such calibration uses 1D LUTs only in a form called VCGT, and WILL ONLY match the colour temperature and gamma of a display - NOT the gamut."
Is it the cause that we shouldn't set a Simulation profile on the verification tab?
VCGT has nothing to do with the simulation profile setting.

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Old 04-06-2016, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
I'm not sure what you're asking, since DisplayCAL doesn't generate ICC profiles from 3D LUTs, but the other way around.
Yes, you're right, of course
Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Only ICC color managed applications will make use of the display profile, much in the same vein as not all applications support (video) 3D LUTs.
Yes, (like desktop wallpaper or irfanview, etc.), but it doesn't do anything when I apply a display profile generated from a madvr profile (I tried it twice: on my TV and on my monitor). Can you verify it whether it's a bug? (Because it would be the easiest way to generate a display profile if we already created a 3DLUT.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Possibly, maybe. For (video) 3D LUTs, there's really only one way to verify them - using the source colorspace they've been created against (e.g. Rec 709 BT 1886) as verification target. ICC profiles are linked on-the-fly, so when no specific source colorspace is chosen, you check the profile against the native display measurements, which will tell you how accurate the profile is. You can also do a similar check as with a 3D LUT by setting a simulation (source) colorspace (it's important in that case that "Use simulation profile as target" is not enabled).
I wanted to do the 2nd (with the "Use simulation profile as target" is enabled) for the first time I tried, and it gave me huge errors. Is it because the icc profile doesn't modify the color gamut?

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Old 04-06-2016, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Yes, (like desktop wallpaper or irfanview, etc.)
The Windows desktop is not color managed, and IrfanView's color management is very limited and doesn't work right most of the time in my experience. For a (free) color managed image viewer, try Google Picasa or XnViewMP instead (you have to enable color management manually in both).

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I wanted to do the 2nd (with the "Use simulation profile as target" is enabled) for the first time I tried, and it gave me huge errors. Is it because the icc profile doesn't modify the color gamut?
No, it's because when "Use simulation profile as target" is enabled, the display profile is not used at all.

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Old 04-06-2016, 03:12 PM
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Ok after watching a bunch of stuff it seems my previous calibration was crushing blacks a little. Yesterday i redid everything, figuring i'll give 1886 another go. I followed the procedure, pre calibration on tv minimal - just turned off any extra processing, brightness and contrast correctly set. Started displaycal up and chose madvr preset, ticked off white drift as i have a plasma, and clicked calibrate andprofile. I adjusted high end red and blue so everything was centered and ran the calibration. Much to my surprise this time 1886 looked great, decent contrast, good shadow detail. Today For my own peace of mind to make sure it wasnt a fluke i reran everything. Didnt change a thing on the tv so everything was centered when i started the calibration. It ran through and it came out much brighter than the one from last night. Ran again, same thing, brighter, even though nothing has changed. Tv and meter well warmed up in all cases.


Does anyone have any idea why i cant seem to get a repeatable, consistent calibration, despite nothing changing at all on the tv or in displaycal/madtpg? Because i can't possibly say my tv is calibrated if the outcome isnt repeatable.

Last edited by iSeries; 04-06-2016 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Does anyone have any idea why i cant seem to get a repeatable, consistent calibration
Sounds like a possible issue with ABL or maybe black level retention. What was the black and white level measured for the "good" and one of the "bad"/"too bright" runs (you can look at the profile information or the measurement data TI3 file to check)?

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Old 04-07-2016, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
Sounds like a possible issue with ABL or maybe black level retention. What was the black and white level measured for the "good" and one of the "bad"/"too bright" runs (you can look at the profile information or the measurement data TI3 file to check)?

Apologies, it was of my own making. Seems my i1d3 is really sensitive to ambient light. I'd run the 'bad' calibrations during the day and early evening. Running the calibration in darkness makes a massive difference (which i didnt think it would as i'm using the meter in direct contact). I ran 3 20 minute calibrations last night to be sure, and then finished off with the default 1500 pattern calibration. 1886 looks wonderful.


As for ABL, through trial and error, experimenting with various window sizes and black / APL backgrounds, my best results come from using a 10% window on a black background. Using APL backgrounds lowered gamma so the image was too bright, and using smaller windows than 10% on a black background skewed readings. Bigger than 10% triggered too much ABL. 10% - just right. I'm sounding like Goldilocks now lol.


Anyway, thanks for your help and thanks for this great software. Just one more question if I may? Is it worth running a longer calibration than the default?
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Last edited by iSeries; 04-07-2016 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Is it worth running a longer calibration than the default?
That's up to you to decide. Measuring more patches will usually tighten the deltaE differences - if that results in tangible (visible) improvement is in the eye of the beholder, though.

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Old 04-07-2016, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
That's up to you to decide. Measuring more patches will usually tighten the deltaE differences - if that results in tangible (visible) improvement is in the eye of the beholder, though.

Thanks - I think I will stick with the defaults. When targeting 1886, is it better to have the TV on 2.2 gamma or 2.4?
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Thanks - I think I will stick with the defaults. When targeting 1886, is it better to have the TV on 2.2 gamma or 2.4?
depends on what the real gamma is with 2.4/2.2 and the black point using BT 1886.

so no one can answer that.

maybe measure and see what is closer to bt 1886.
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
depends on what the real gamma is with 2.4/2.2 and the black point using BT 1886.

so no one can answer that.

maybe measure and see what is closer to bt 1886.

Thanks huhn, without actually measuring, overall it's definitely closer to 2.2. Shadow end looks to be around 2.1 or so and pushing up from there.


I'm fast coming to the conclusion that there is no way to properly calibrate a plasma. Seems the best I can do is make it look as good as I can.
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Old 04-08-2016, 09:47 AM
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In MadTPG, is there a way to make the top tool bar disappear when running interactive adjustments? Once I've set the window size and set the few other options I don't need to see it anymore. Only once I've done the interactive adjustments and move on to profiling does it go full screen.
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:41 PM
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Do I have to re-do a calibrate&profile if I want to create a different gamma profile? I've created a 3D LUT for Rec709 BT.1886.

Do I have to re-run all the colorimeter measurements again if I want to try a Rec709 flat 2.2 gamma? Or is there a way to create a new 3D LUT using the previous colorimeter measurements?
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
In MadTPG, is there a way to make the top tool bar disappear when running interactive adjustments? Once I've set the window size and set the few other options I don't need to see it anymore. Only once I've done the interactive adjustments and move on to profiling does it go full screen.
Enable full-screen and disable OSD. Two boxes up top.
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Old 04-08-2016, 01:45 PM
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Do I have to re-do a calibrate&profile if I want to create a different gamma profile? I've created a 3D LUT for Rec709 BT.1886.

Do I have to re-run all the colorimeter measurements again if I want to try a Rec709 flat 2.2 gamma? Or is there a way to create a new 3D LUT using the previous colorimeter measurements?
You don't have to re-run the calibration. Go to the 3D LUT tab in DisplayCAL and change the settings to what you want.
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Old 04-08-2016, 02:29 PM
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Enable full-screen and disable OSD. Two boxes up top.
Hi, that only works when actually running the patch measurements. When doing the interactive adjustments MadTPG stays in 'windowed' mode, which is fine but I would like to know if there's a way to hide the toolbar at the top.
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Old 04-08-2016, 02:36 PM
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Hi, that only works when actually running the patch measurements. When doing the interactive adjustments MadTPG stays in 'windowed' mode, which is fine but I would like to know if there's a way to hide the toolbar at the top.
I know what you mean. It's a bug, not sure if in DisplayCAL or madTPG. You have to double-click on the madTPG window after you click "Start" on the interactive display adjustment. And no, there is no way to hide the toolbar in windowed mode.
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:36 AM
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I know what you mean. It's a bug, not sure if in DisplayCAL or madTPG. You have to double-click on the madTPG window after you click "Start" on the interactive display adjustment. And no, there is no way to hide the toolbar in windowed mode.

Thats a shame, new to this so it's been up on my plasma for many hours over many days now and i'm pretty sure i'll end up with the tool bar burned in!
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:07 AM
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Thats a shame, new to this so it's been up on my plasma for many hours over many days now and i'm pretty sure i'll end up with the tool bar burned in!
Hours? How long does it take to do interactive adjustment on this plasma?

Btw, I'm pretty sure the madTPG behavior is by design: Once the calibration software has connected, the user shouldn't really be allowed to change some of the critical TPG settings (i.e. VideoLUTs on/off, 3D LUT on/off), because these are set by the calibration software. I would agree though that having the fullscreen on/off switch still be user controlled would be nice to have, just like the "stay on top" button, maybe @madshi can change this?
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:09 AM
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Hours? How long does it take to do interactive adjustment on this plasma?

Btw, I'm pretty sure the madTPG behavior is by design: Once the calibration software has connected, the user shouldn't really be allowed to change some of the critical TPG settings (i.e. VideoLUTs on/off, 3D LUT on/off), because these are set by the calibration software. I would agree though that having the fullscreen on/off switch still be user controlled would be nice to have, just like the "stay on top" button, maybe @madshi can change this?

Like i said, i'm new at this lol. Different contrast settings and window sizes mean different rgb adjustments, so with every different setting i try, the rgb contols have to be readjusted


And for me, once the interactive adjustment is started, i have to go onto madtpg to re-click full screen because for some reason it isnt sticking


And talking of the interactive adjustments, how critical is this to the process? If say i have a 10% window and balance high rgb, if i then make the window bigger or smaller, rgb is off again and i have to re-balance it. So how on earth am i to know if i've set it correctly? The readings also change depending on where i put the interactive adjustments window!

Last edited by iSeries; 04-09-2016 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:36 AM
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And for me, once the interactive adjustment is started, i have to go onto madtpg to re-click full screen because for some reason it isnt sticking

The readings also change depending on where i put the interactive adjustments window!
You're right with both statements.
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Apologies, it was of my own making. Seems my i1d3 is really sensitive to ambient light. I'd run the 'bad' calibrations during the day and early evening. Running the calibration in darkness makes a massive difference (which i didnt think it would as i'm using the meter in direct contact). I ran 3 20 minute calibrations last night to be sure, and then finished off with the default 1500 pattern calibration. 1886 looks wonderful.
Good observasion, thanks! I always wondered about this.
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The Windows desktop is not color managed, and IrfanView's color management is very limited and doesn't work right most of the time in my experience. For a (free) color managed image viewer, try Google Picasa or XnViewMP instead (you have to enable color management manually in both).
I tried XnViewMP but still don't see any difference with an icm generated from a madvr profile, but I should.
Can anybody confirm this? (It only takes for around 15 minutes to try it.) Thanks

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Old 04-09-2016, 10:42 AM
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If you use 3dlut, you can really try skipping the interactive adjustment and see how it result, should not be much difference.

I always do 2 run , one for madvr, one for color managed apps. Most software require "mounting/installing" in the window color management.

I like irfanview cause it can color manage untagged image, which happen to be more than one would like.

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