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post #1621 of 2851 Old 03-18-2014, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouichi View Post

Thanks for your reply.

But it still confused me.

So even if a display is calibrated to SRGB by external device and its hardware LUT correctly.

To use the 3DLUT of MADVR can still bring benefit?

argyll 3dlut allows a grade of precision that you can easily call "state of the art" for consumer displays and even professional ones.

I don't know exactly what your hardware calibration does, but probably it fixes greyscale, transfer curve (gamma), primary colors and makes a very basic profile (read control points inside the gamut)
Now all other colors in the display gamut volume will be calculated by the display as linear combinations of the input(with control points but I'm not sure). It means that you have to hope that your display behaves linearly enough, otherwise colors such as skin tones will fall somewhere near the intended point, but not exactly there.

3dlut is different! It measures some thousands of "control points" in order to know how your display behaves and what it outpus when you inputs in it, say...(RGB) 12, 200,225. Knowing those outputs and making interpolations for all other colors, allows a fantastic precision!

I don't know how much you may benefit since professional Eizos are built order to behave "good", but LCD dispaly seldom behave good enough. If you were talking about a DLP Barco D-Cinema projector, maybe the benefit could be marginal, but it's not your case. Anyway I'm curious to to look at your report!smile.gif
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post #1622 of 2851 Old 03-18-2014, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kukulcan View Post


argyll 3dlut allows a grade of precision that you can easily call "state of the art" for consumer displays and even professional ones.

I don't know exactly what your hardware calibration does, but probably it fixes greyscale, transfer curve (gamma), primary colors and makes a very basic profile (read control points inside the gamut)
Now all other colors in the display gamut volume will be calculated by the display as linear combinations of the input(with control points but I'm not sure). It means that you have to hope that your display behaves linearly enough, otherwise colors such as skin tones will fall somewhere near the intended point, but not exactly there.

3dlut is different! It measures some thousands of "control points" in order to know how your display behaves and what it outpus when you inputs in it, say...(RGB) 12, 200,225. Knowing those outputs and making interpolations for all other colors, allows a fantastic precision!

I don't know how much you may benefit since professional Eizos are built order to behave "good", but LCD dispaly seldom behave good enough. If you were talking about a DLP Barco D-Cinema projector, maybe the benefit could be marginal, but it's not your case. Anyway I'm curious to to look at your report!smile.gif

Thanks for your reply.
I haven't bought the display yet.
(Now I am still a student.)
I'm still considering what to buy.

I only need SRGB color space so I am considering the display below.
http://www.eizo.com/global/products/coloredge/cs230/

http://www.nec-display.com/jp/display/professional/lcd-pa242w/
(sorry, they only have japanese introduction.)

I'm curious about the report,too. 
I use English,Japanese,Chinese to search on Google,
and I can't find anyone use the profesional display to use MADVR 3dlut to play a video.

 

One more noob question.
If my opinion is correct,to use 3d-lut of MADVR will not lose any color?
(I know that if we use software to install the icc profile in windows,we would lose some color.)
Or maybe I should ask like this : What is the disadvantage of using 3d-lut of madvr?
(Sorry for my bad English again ...)
 

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post #1623 of 2851 Old 03-18-2014, 09:34 AM
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sorry I send the same post two time...

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post #1624 of 2851 Old 03-18-2014, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post

This really starts to wonder me ... I've just ran an -f1500 with this result
Code:
dispwin -v -c
targen -v -d3 -G -e4 -B8 -g40 -s20 -f1500 -V1.3 -N0.75 -c C:\Argyll_V1.6.3\ref\Rec709.icm mvr_PASS_1
dispread -v -dmadvr -c1 -Yp -yn -X WLEDFamily_07Feb11.ccss mvr_PASS_1
colprof -v -qh -bl -ax mvr_PASS_1
collink -v -qh -3m -et -Et -G -IB -ia -w  C:\Argyll_V1.6.3\ref\rec709.icm mvr_PASS_1.icm 3DLUT_madVR.icm

ti3_and_icm 303k .zip file

Any suggestions?
I've looked at the two TI3s (the previous one you posted, mvr_PASS_2.ti3, and the latest mvr_PASS_1.ti3) and what I see are curious differences in the measured gamut:

mvr_PASS_2.ti3:

Note the curious "kinks" in the outer gamut edges.

mvr_PASS_1.ti3:

This one looks smoother and more what I would expect from a reasonably well-behaved display. The black point recorded in the accompanying profile is L*a*b* 0.1744 0.1135 -0.5433, so only very slightly blueish.

I've also re-created the madVR 3DLUT (only for mvr_PASS_1.icm as the mvr_PASS_2.icm seemingly got broken in the zip, it was a zero-byte file) using the command line you posted and looked at the resulting output with the latest madVR. The graybalance using a stepped grayscale ramp near black is as follows: 0% -> RGB 0 0 0, 1% -> RGB 4 4 4, 2% -> RGB 8 8 8, 3% -> RGB 9 9 9, 4% -> RGB 10 10 11 (I averaged the values at each grayscale step to accommodate for the madVR dithering)
So I think it's safe to say the 3DLUT doesn't add any blue near black (I consider the 1 B unit at 4% as insignificant).
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post #1625 of 2851 Old 03-18-2014, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouichi View Post

So even if a display is calibrated to SRGB by external device and its hardware LUT correctly.

To use the 3DLUT of MADVR can still bring benefit?
Yes, although the difference may be small depending how good the internal hardware LUT is. If you want to use a 3DLUT or custom display profile instead, to get the most benefit out of it you may want to use the native gamut of the display, and let the 3DLUT / profile handle the conversion from sRGB (otherwise the internal hardware LUT may actually limit the gamut if it differs from the more detailed characterization).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kukulcan View Post

I don't know how much you may benefit since professional Eizos are built order to behave "good", but LCD dispaly seldom behave good enough. If you were talking about a DLP Barco D-Cinema projector, maybe the benefit could be marginal, but it's not your case. Anyway I'm curious to to look at your report!smile.gif
Both the Eizo and NEC posted above use variants of IPS panels afaik, which are usually very good in that respect. I would expect the differences between results with 3DLUT and simple curves + matrix to be in the ballpark of 2-3 dE 2000 max (judging from my own experience with a NEC wide-gamut IPS display).
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post #1626 of 2851 Old 03-19-2014, 12:53 AM
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I am not sure whether this is a stupid question but I hope someone can tell something to me.

I know little about those terminology like gamma or others, but I want to watch the better quality of video.

 

So I follow the post #1 (with madVR v0.87.7 and dispcalGUI 1.7.5.7), but when I watch Anime with 3DLUT, the video seems a little grey (the skin color white than before). I am not sure whether this is really right, is there any video and screenshot can test this?

And sometimes I think the madVR without 3DLUT  feels better for eyes, that what I really confused.

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post #1627 of 2851 Old 03-19-2014, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post

I've looked at the two TI3s (the previous one you posted, mvr_PASS_2.ti3, and the latest mvr_PASS_1.ti3) and what I see are curious differences in the measured gamut:

mvr_PASS_2.ti3:

Note the curious "kinks" in the outer gamut edges.

mvr_PASS_1.ti3:

This one looks smoother and more what I would expect from a reasonably well-behaved display. The black point recorded in the accompanying profile is L*a*b* 0.1744 0.1135 -0.5433, so only very slightly blueish.

I've also re-created the madVR 3DLUT (only for mvr_PASS_1.icm as the mvr_PASS_2.icm seemingly got broken in the zip, it was a zero-byte file) using the command line you posted and looked at the resulting output with the latest madVR. The graybalance using a stepped grayscale ramp near black is as follows: 0% -> RGB 0 0 0, 1% -> RGB 4 4 4, 2% -> RGB 8 8 8, 3% -> RGB 9 9 9, 4% -> RGB 10 10 11 (I averaged the values at each grayscale step to accommodate for the madVR dithering)
So I think it's safe to say the 3DLUT doesn't add any blue near black (I consider the 1 B unit at 4% as insignificant).

Thank you for your investigation! smile.gif I don't know why the mvr_PASS_2.icm got broken in the zip. Can you tell us how you did this test, for better understanding (It's a bit hard too me with all those terms when my English is bad smile.gif)and so I can try with another measurement I made. Thanks a lot!

Generally ...
About dispcal, if my monitor's gamma curve is close to sRGB i use dispcal -gs or -G. If my monitor is close to BT.709 i use g. Is this correct?

Samsung UE46H7005/7000 - Dynaudio Focus 200 XD
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post #1628 of 2851 Old 03-19-2014, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post

Can you tell us how you did this test, for better understanding?
Sure. I used dispcalGUI's testchart editor to load the TI3 files (drag'n'drop) and then saved a VRML L*a*b* file to get a view of the measured gamut (using the Cortona3D Viewer plugin with Firefox).
To examine the grayscale of the 3DLUT output I used MPC-HC as player and AVS HD near black patterns. I used Just ColorPicker (set to 5x5 pixel averaging) to look at the generated RGB output values while MPC-HC was running in windowed mode.
Quote:
Generally ...
About dispcal, if my monitor's gamma curve is close to sRGB i use dispcal -gs or -G. If my monitor is close to BT.709 i use g. Is this correct?
Should work. There are basically two considerations that I personally tend to take into account: Should there be made an attempt to minimize the loss of levels due to the calibration being not so close to the native response (assuming an 8-bit signal path, this will be less of an issue for higher bit depths), or should the focus be on even progression from black to make profiling easier? (depending on the display, it may even be possible to have a good compromise of both) I think for 3D LUT use, where the calibration is later incorporated into the 3D LUT itself, the latter may be a good choice, especially for madVR as the advanced dithering does a very good job of preventing banding. If you plan to use the calibration in other forms (not only as part of the 3D LUT) e.g. for installing the display profile it could make sense to favor the former. If going for the even progression, sRGB or Rec. 1886 are good choices I think. If trying to minimize loss of levels, you'd first have to figure out the native response of the display. This could be done by e.g. creating a preliminary curves+matrix profile with a good amount of grayscale steps (I'd aim for around 50, if using dispcalGUI this can be had with the "large" testchart for curves+matrix profiles), without calibration (linear videoLUTs), and looking at the tone response curves in e.g. dispcalGUI's curve viewer (this will even tell you which overall idealized response it thinks is closest to the one recorded in the profile in the status bar - the "averaged RGB transfer function" part, and you can also hover the curves to get a feel for the gamma values at any given point to make your own judgment).
In some cases calibration might slightly raise the black level. It's is not absolutely required to calibrate though (but it usually does have a benefit), as I understand e.g. Zoyd has had very good results with just profiling for the 3D LUT, skipping the calibration altogether. Depends on the display I think.
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post #1629 of 2851 Old 03-19-2014, 10:20 AM
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@ madshi, Graeme,

 

Can you please summarize your discussion about what settings (Static/Dynamic, Mono/Color) will give the most accurate results with madTPG.

Thanks.

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post #1630 of 2851 Old 03-19-2014, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post

In some cases calibration might slightly raise the black level. It's is not absolutely required to calibrate though (but it usually does have a benefit), as I understand e.g. Zoyd has had very good results with just profiling for the 3D LUT, skipping the calibration altogether. Depends on the display I think.

That's right - as long as I include a fair number of neutral axis targets (like 40-50) I don't find any benefits in using dispcal on my display.
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post #1631 of 2851 Old 03-19-2014, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post

Can you please summarize your discussion about what settings (Static/Dynamic, Mono/Color) will give the most accurate results with madTPG.

If I knew that, I would not allow you to choose (why would I?). So obviously I don't know. Earlier madTPG builds didn't do "dynamic" correctly, so all older madTPG tests static vs. dynamic need to be redone with v0.87.7.
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post #1632 of 2851 Old 03-20-2014, 07:40 AM
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Do you think it would benefit our final decision if I contacted X-Rite and ask them how many readings the i1 Display Pro & i1Pro 1&2 take per second,

and whether it averages the taken samples into one in the hardware?

Maybe X-Rite could be more specific about that.

 

 

Off Topic,

Anyone have experience with NEC PA242W?

I am really tiered of average monitors, I want grading quality monitor (under 1000$), with programmable 3DLUT and all the bells & whistles.

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post #1633 of 2851 Old 03-20-2014, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicacl View Post
 

I am not sure whether this is a stupid question but I hope someone can tell something to me.

I know little about those terminology like gamma or others, but I want to watch the better quality of video.

 

So I follow the post #1 (with madVR v0.87.7 and dispcalGUI 1.7.5.7), but when I watch Anime with 3DLUT, the video seems a little grey (the skin color white than before). I am not sure whether this is really right, is there any video and screenshot can test this?

And sometimes I think the madVR without 3DLUT  feels better for eyes, that what I really confused.

 

I notice quite large differences using different .ccss correction files, are you sure you picked the correct display type or that your meter works well with your display?  I got very pink calibrations trying to calibrate a wide gamut IPS with a Spyder 3.  Which meter and display are you using?

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post #1634 of 2851 Old 03-20-2014, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post

Do you think it would benefit our final decision if I contacted X-Rite and ask them how many readings the i1 Display Pro & i1Pro 1&2 take per second,
and whether it averages the taken samples into one in the hardware?
Maybe X-Rite could be more specific about that.
Please to do not contact X-Rite with support queries for software they are not responsible for.

From the ArgyllCMS main documentation page:
Please note that instruments are being driven by ArgyllCMS drivers, and that any problems or queries regarding instrument operation should be directed to the Argyll's author(s) or the Argyll mailing list, and not to any other party.
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post #1635 of 2851 Old 03-20-2014, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post

Please to do not contact X-Rite with support queries for software they are not responsible for.

No problem.

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post #1636 of 2851 Old 03-21-2014, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
 

 

I notice quite large differences using different .ccss correction files, are you sure you picked the correct display type or that your meter works well with your display?  I got very pink calibrations trying to calibrate a wide gamut IPS with a Spyder 3.  Which meter and display are you using?

Thank for your reply, I calibrated my VP2770-LED with Spyder4. And I haven't use any correction files, I have no idea about something like this. Maybe I need find out my way by myself.

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post #1637 of 2851 Old 03-22-2014, 01:23 AM
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My projector is set to 16-235. iGPU is set to output full range to MadVR which is set at 16-235.


I see that there is a command line -E switch for display devices connected in video color space 16-235. If using the GUI (not command line) is there any issue with using Argyll/MadVR in the configuration I am running to create a 3D LUT?
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post #1638 of 2851 Old 03-22-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicacl View Post
 

Thank for your reply, I calibrated my VP2770-LED with Spyder4. And I haven't use any correction files, I have no idea about something like this. Maybe I need find out my way by myself.

 

Here is the Argyll doc page that has what you need to know to install the correction files for the Spyder 4, it sounds like if you can find the install CD or have the drivers installed it shouldn't be too hard. :)

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post #1639 of 2851 Old 03-22-2014, 01:44 PM
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What's the recommended measurement hardware for ArgyllCMS / dispcalGUI? I have a Spyder3 that I bought years ago, but it's so painfully slow. It took over 2 hours to make calibrate/profile my LCD monitor when set to medium and a making a MadVR profile (per the process in the first post) with it isn't much, if any, faster.

Edit: Seriously!?!?! 1399 patches? I'll be lucky if this thing can finish the profile in 8+ hours with that many patches.

Edit2: Okay, so it only took a little over 3:30... eek.gif
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post #1640 of 2851 Old 03-22-2014, 05:01 PM
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Stereodude,

Imagine what it would be like if you ran 10,000 measurements.

Following the light illusions software discussions, it sounds like you have to have a very fast meter or don't bother.

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post #1641 of 2851 Old 03-22-2014, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Imagine what it would be like if you ran 10,000 measurements.

Following the light illusions software discussions, it sounds like you have to have a very fast meter or don't bother.
Yikes, that would be dreadful...

So, what's a fast meter for ArgyllCMS / HCFR that's not outrageously expensive? The X-Rite i1Display Pro?
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post #1642 of 2851 Old 03-22-2014, 08:13 PM
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It takes about an hour with my i1Display Pro (ID3 around here).

My Home Theater/Video Gaming/HTPC/2 Channel rig (Mitsubishi, MartinLogan, Marantz, DIYMA, and others)

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post #1643 of 2851 Old 03-23-2014, 08:02 AM
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Does the icm file created by dispcal with the -o switch contain the same information as the cal file? I'm asking because I'm using it to calibrate my monitors and I need an icm file for windows to load, so I don't have to use dispwin everytime I start the PC. Is there a way to create an icm file from the cal file after the fact? I'm guessing it should be possible with applycal, but I don't know what profile to integrate the cal file into.
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post #1644 of 2851 Old 03-23-2014, 08:31 AM
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the i1d3 is pretty fast... one hour for a standard IPS display. With a high contrast projector (with >15000:1 CR and pitch dark black), it takes 3x as much time (all with 2000 patterns).

It seems the Color Munki Photo is a bit faster with my projector, but the dark readings are not as reliable unfortunately.
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post #1645 of 2851 Old 03-23-2014, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiffel View Post

the i1d3 is pretty fast... one hour for a standard IPS display. With a high contrast projector (with >15000:1 CR and pitch dark black), it takes 3x as much time (all with 2000 patterns).
FWIW, I was using my Spyder3 on a LCD monitor (not a TV) with an AUO A-MVA panel with ~3000:1 native contrast when calibrated, not the more common 800:1 to 1000:1 IPS panels found in a lot of monitors. Maybe that contributed to some of the slowness.
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post #1646 of 2851 Old 03-23-2014, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N3W813 View Post

5. Set the following settings for Create 3D LUT tool
  1. ...
  2. Enable 'Apply BT.1886 gamma mapping' and select '2.4 Absolute'
  3. ...
Why do we want to use a gamma of 2.4 in this step? Isn't the target gamma for HD footage and the typical monitor / display 2.2?
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post #1647 of 2851 Old 03-23-2014, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Why do we want to use a gamma of 2.4 in this step? Isn't the target gamma for HD footage and the typical monitor / display 2.2?

This is just one of the (numerous) threads where you can start "studying" what BT1886 is, enjoy it!biggrin.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1505120/gamma-bt-1886-explained-lightspace-users-check-in-here-need-your-help#post_24064186
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If all somebody wants to do is use their laptop to run a LUT calibration on their TV and download the files into an eecolor processor or Lumagen 3d mini, is this the right thread?

If so.....is there a single post that describes what to do. The first post in the thread sounds like it applies to something else.

TIA

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post #1649 of 2851 Old 03-23-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kukulcan View Post

This is just one of the (numerous) threads where you can start "studying" what BT1886 is, enjoy it!biggrin.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1505120/gamma-bt-1886-explained-lightspace-users-check-in-here-need-your-help#post_24064186
Oh geez.... I read through the thread somewhat quickly and aside from marveling at the amount of bickering, I'm not sure it's any more clear to me now than it was before. There was certainly no consensus.

Thanks for the link though.
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post #1650 of 2851 Old 03-23-2014, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I'm not sure it's any more clear to me now than it was before. There was certainly no consensus.

Thanks for the link though.

Anyway there's no doubt that when you choose BT1886, the correct parameter is then 2.4. Absolute or relative return slight differences that depend on measured contrast, and giving a try to both is probably better than any tech explenation.
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