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post #2341 of 2384 Old Yesterday, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
Running a profile&calibration with "default testchart for lut profiles" now but takes still so much time. Already running 90 minutes now........
this is about 19 sec per patch something can't be right here you most likely run a very big testchart
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post #2342 of 2384 Old Yesterday, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
How big should the video area be approximately for a plasma TV, edge-lit LED, and full-array LED backlight TVs on madtpg? Thanks!
Something like: 8%, full screen, & full screen. There is some debate whether you should use a black background outside the 8% window or use a constant APL setup. The advice seems to differ based on which plasma it is.
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post #2343 of 2384 Old Yesterday, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post
Hmmmm I guess I don't know what to look for. Give me a example
well like I said; black crush & obviously "coloured" dark tones
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post #2344 of 2384 Old Yesterday, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
FWIW the advice I was given was for generating a 3D LUT was not to treat it as a normal calibration, instead it was briefly stated as

find the gamut that is the largest
set gamma to the most accurate but if it's non linear then use preset that makes it 2.1 rather than 2.3 at low end
do greyscale at 100percent stimulus only... leave bias at defaults, just adjust gains


i.e. get white right, give the LUT as much room to work in as possible and then leave it to it.

My attempts at generating a 3D LUT, also with a JVC projector albeit an X3, suggest that the end result is heavily influenced by the starting point, i.e. what state the projector is in. The ccxx differences were quite minor in comparison. Of course bear in mind that I still don't have a result I would call excellent so what do I know!?
So what you are basically saying is that I first need to adjust my actual projector setttings as following:

1. adjust the gains to get as close to 100%/100%/100% R/G/B at a 100IRE pattern.
2. choose a gamma curve where 10IRE is approx 2.1 (I have a non-linear gamma curve at all gamma presets so I ll have to look into this tonight which gives my a gamma curve that is 2.1@10IRE).
3. adjust brightness and contrast with clipping patterns.
4. re-check RGB at 100IRE and adjust if needed
5. re-check gamma at 10IRE and adjust if needed
6. re-check brightness and contrast and adjust if needed
7. etc. (do this until all is stable)
8. Only thing I don t know what you mean with is to 'find the gamut that is the largest'. What do you mean with this and how could I do this?
9. After all things described above are finished run Dispcal.
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post #2345 of 2384 Old Today, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
So what you are basically saying is that I first need to adjust my actual projector setttings as following:

1. adjust the gains to get as close to 100%/100%/100% R/G/B at a 100IRE pattern.
2. choose a gamma curve where 10IRE is approx 2.1 (I have a non-linear gamma curve at all gamma presets so I ll have to look into this tonight which gives my a gamma curve that is 2.1@10IRE).
3. adjust brightness and contrast with clipping patterns.
4. re-check RGB at 100IRE and adjust if needed
5. re-check gamma at 10IRE and adjust if needed
6. re-check brightness and contrast and adjust if needed
7. etc. (do this until all is stable)
8. Only thing I don t know what you mean with is to 'find the gamut that is the largest'. What do you mean with this and how could I do this?
9. After all things described above are finished run Dispcal.
as I understand it, you just do 1 & 2 & 8 & then leave brightness etc at 0 unless the results say you need to do something else to get it into the best possible starting position. Crudely put, 8 means the biggest triangle on the cie chart.

I don't have the knowledge or experience to advise on what the bit about "unless the results say you need to do something..." means in practice. In my case, I have v different levels of red needed at low IRE vs high IRE so if I corrected at 100IRE only then it produced low IRE red levels that were way out of line with knock on impacts elsewhere.

There are similar comments earlier in this thread, e.g. MadVR - ArgyllCMS

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post #2346 of 2384 Old Today, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
this is about 19 sec per patch something can't be right here you most likely run a very big testchart
I have to find out why my measurements take so much time so I can do tests. Doing a Profile & Calibrate taking more then 2 hours each time is just not doable for testing.

The testchart I m using is "default testchart for lut profiles" and looks like this:


The rest of my Dispcal settings look like this:
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post #2347 of 2384 Old Today, 12:19 AM
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[quote=sanderdvd;25581977]What is the difference between profile and profile&calibration? Do i only need Profile for making a 3Dlut for madVR?[/quote @Holiday , can you explain a bit more about this? What does the 3 different options (1. Calibrate Only 2. Calibrate & Profile 3. Profile Only) actually do?
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post #2348 of 2384 Old Today, 12:35 AM
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And here are the results of a new measurement last night. First two images is a non-calibrated jvc setting without using a 3Dlut file and the last two images is the same non-calibrated jvc settings WITH using a created 3Dlut file:





[img=http://s9.postimg.org/6gwlghe63/3dlut1.jpg]

So first about the greyscale: it looks pretty good with the created 3Dlut file except for 20IRE where the Delta is 6.9 because of too much red there.

Second there is the gamma: this also seems like a big improvement already over the gamma without using the 3Dlut file. It is only a bit too high for my taste. Is the advise here to lower my gamma setting in my JVC projector or do a new Calibrate & Profile session with changing the Dispcal setting from Tone Curve Rec.1886 2.4 Absolute to eg. Tone Curve Rec.1886 2.2 Absolute ?

And then the gamut: It looks like the 3Dlut file does something (positive) to the gamut but still far from perfect it seems. I thought this whole method we are doing in this topic is a 'guaranteed' 99% perfect color gamut?
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post #2349 of 2384 Old Today, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
Second there is the gamma: this also seems like a big improvement already over the gamma without using the 3Dlut file. It is only a bit too high for my taste. Is the advise here to lower my gamma setting in my JVC projector or do a new Calibrate & Profile session with changing the Dispcal setting from Tone Curve Rec.1886 2.4 Absolute to eg. Tone Curve Rec.1886 2.2 Absolute ?
there are some suggested settings for a 2.2 target in this post - MadVR - ArgyllCMS
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post #2350 of 2384 Old Today, 03:05 AM
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the new calibration was done without correction or with ?
your testchart looks good but does is take 2 H for 271 patches. i do over 3000 patches and it's doesn't take 4 H
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post #2351 of 2384 Old Today, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
And then the gamut: It looks like the 3Dlut file does something (positive) to the gamut but still far from perfect it seems. I thought this whole method we are doing in this topic is a 'guaranteed' 99% perfect color gamut?
Your primaries are undersaturated (inside the triangle) to begin with and a LUT can't fix that. Does your projector have a different color setting like native? To see the improvement you will need to measure before/after positions of other colors.

Your gamma response was set to a 2.4 power law because your black level is not measurable, set the BT.1886 to something lower (2.2, 2.3, etc.)

That testchart should only take a few minutes to complete, the lengthy part I am guessing is that you press "calibrate+profile". Just press "profile only", that is all you need for a 3dLUT.

Last edited by zoyd; Today at 03:23 AM.
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post #2352 of 2384 Old Today, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
the new calibration was done without correction or with ?
your testchart looks good but does is take 2 H for 271 patches. i do over 3000 patches and it's doesn't take 4 H


These are my settings so as you can see the new calibration was done without the correction file. What is the display device you are measuring and which meter you have? These two things could affect readings in my understanding.

User zoyd just replied in this topic that I don t need to 'Profile&Calibrate' but only 'Profile'.
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post #2353 of 2384 Old Today, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

User zoyd just replied in this topic that I don t need to 'Profile&Calibrate' but only 'Profile'.
If you just want to do quick test runs don't run the calibrate portion or least set the speed slider to "fast/high".
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post #2354 of 2384 Old Today, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Your primaries are undersaturated (inside the triangle) to begin with and a LUT can't fix that. Does your projector have a different color setting like native? To see the improvement you will need to measure before/after positions of other colors.

Your gamma response was set to a 2.4 power law because your black level is not measurable, set the BT.1886 to something lower (2.2, 2.3, etc.)

That testchart should only take a few minutes to complete, the lengthy part I am guessing is that you press "calibrate+profile". Just press "profile only", that is all you need for a 3dLUT.
Thanks for this helpful input Zoyd. So I have to look for a Color Space that results in both the Primary and Secondary colors to be OUTSIDE the reference (squares) points and NOT inside them (so eg. the green dot has to be ABOVE the square and not UNDER it like it is now?). My 'Color Profile' in the JVC settings on now on 'Standard' because this was suggested my JVC users to be closest to reference. The Color Profiles I can choose in the JVC are:

- Standard: Color Space of the HDTV standard
- Cinema: Color Space suitable for all movies
- Animation: Color Space that is suitable for animated works
- Natural: Color Space that is suitable for drama footage etc.
- Stage: Color Space that is suitable for concerts etc.
- x.v.color: Color Space that is close to the x.v.color standard
- Off: disable color space adjustments

About the gamma:
You say 'set the BT.1886 to something lower (2.2, 2.3, etc.)'. With this you mean 'Tone Curve' setting in the options of Dispcal?
And when creating the 3Dlut file there is also the option 'Apply bt.1886 gamma mapping' which I enabled (the guide in the starting post of this thread suggests this) and put on 2.4. Do I also have to change this to 2.2, 2.3 etc.

And can you provide information on what the options 'white level drift compensation' and 'black level drift compensation' exactly do and when one would enable these?
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post #2355 of 2384 Old Today, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
If you just want to do quick test runs don't run the calibrate portion or least set the speed slider to "fast/high".
Can you tell what the difference is between:

1. Profile
2. Calibrate
3. Profile & Calibrate

Is it also an idea that for a faster test I change from 'default testchart for lut profiles' to 'small testchart for lut profiles'?
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post #2356 of 2384 Old Today, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
These are my settings so as you can see the new calibration was done without the correction file. What is the display device you are measuring and which meter you have? These two things could affect readings in my understanding.

User zoyd just replied in this topic that I don t need to 'Profile&Calibrate' but only 'Profile'.
you don't get greenish problem this way right?

i guess the correction is not the right choice for your device.

i use a t1 display pro and i calibrated about 7 different devices.
i'm aware that reading dark patches takes longer time but not 20 sec ...
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post #2357 of 2384 Old Today, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
you don't get greenish problem this way right?

i guess the correction is not the right choice for your device.

i use a t1 display pro and i calibrated about 7 different devices.
i'm aware that reading dark patches takes longer time but not 20 sec ...
I don t know what you mean with 'greenish problem'.
What is the t1 display pro? I have the i1 Display Pro 3 meter.
I m waiting for someone with a front screen projector and i1 Display Pro 3 to chime in on this.

zoyd also did the suggestion to just only 'Profile' as this would be all I need for creating a 3Dlut file for madVR.
@zoyd : looking at the DiscalGUI settings I noticed that the 'Tone Curve' setting only affects 'calibration settings'. I cannot adjust gamma settings in the 'profiling settings' of the Dispcal GUI. So I assume you mean the option 'Apply bt.1886 gamma mapping' when creating the 3Dlut file and change this from 2.4 to 2.2 ?
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post #2358 of 2384 Old Today, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
As you can see the greyscale and gamma look different so it seems the 3Dlut file IS doing something. However, the greyscale at 10IRE seems not good at all (also the too much green can easily by seen by eye).
i'm talking about this.
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post #2359 of 2384 Old Today, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
i'm talking about this.
The green problem at 10IRE is gone.
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post #2360 of 2384 Old Today, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
Thanks for this helpful input Zoyd. So I have to look for a Color Space that results in both the Primary and Secondary colors to be OUTSIDE the reference (squares) points and NOT inside them (so eg. the green dot has to be ABOVE the square and not UNDER it like it is now?). My 'Color Profile' in the JVC settings on now on 'Standard' because this was suggested my JVC users to be closest to reference. The Color Profiles I can choose in the JVC are:

- Standard: Color Space of the HDTV standard
- Cinema: Color Space suitable for all movies
- Animation: Color Space that is suitable for animated works
- Natural: Color Space that is suitable for drama footage etc.
- Stage: Color Space that is suitable for concerts etc.
- x.v.color: Color Space that is close to the x.v.color standard
- Off: disable color space adjustments
yes, the triangle formed by the dots should enclose the triangle formed by the squares before the LUT is applied. Probably off is what you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd
About the gamma:
You say 'set the BT.1886 to something lower (2.2, 2.3, etc.)'. With this you mean 'Tone Curve' setting in the options of Dispcal?
And when creating the 3Dlut file there is also the option 'Apply bt.1886 gamma mapping' which I enabled (the guide in the starting post of this thread suggests this) and put on 2.4. Do I also have to change this to 2.2, 2.3 etc.
I meant when creating the 3dLUT on it's set-up page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd
And can you provide information on what the options 'white level drift compensation' and 'black level drift compensation' exactly do and when one would enable these?
You should turn both of these off, black level drift is for unstable meter readings of black, the i1d3 is stable. White level drift is for unstable displays and improves profile fits for some CRTs and plasmas.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
Can you tell what the difference is between:

1. Profile
2. Calibrate
3. Profile & Calibrate
There is a good description of the differences on the dispcalGUI documentation page. Profile just means measure and fit the display characteristics. Calibrate means measure and adjust the video card gamma ramps. 3. is obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd
Is it also an idea that for a faster test I change from 'default testchart for lut profiles' to 'small testchart for lut profiles'?

Use the one you have been using to get a workable flow and then for final run(s) you might use a larger one depending on the performance of the default.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
zoyd also did the suggestion to just only 'Profile' as this would be all I need for creating a 3Dlut file for madVR.
@zoyd : looking at the DiscalGUI settings I noticed that the 'Tone Curve' setting only affects 'calibration settings'. I cannot adjust gamma settings in the 'profiling settings' of the Dispcal GUI. So I assume you mean the option 'Apply bt.1886 gamma mapping' when creating the 3Dlut file and change this from 2.4 to 2.2 ?
yes, see above.

Last edited by zoyd; Today at 05:53 AM.
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post #2361 of 2384 Old Today, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
The green problem at 10IRE is gone.
didn't you say you now have a red problem at 20IRE instead? (I can't see the graphs from this connection, blocked by filter at work)

also are you creating the 3D LUT without the ccmx but measuring in chromapure with it (the equivalent of the ccmx in chromapure) on or did you turn that off before measuring in chromapure?
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red is at ~108% at 20%
the problem was green was always to low or at about 100 % with the old report and he saw to much green.
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post #2363 of 2384 Old Today, 06:04 AM
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Did anything else change between those 2 runs or was it just the ccmx?
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post #2364 of 2384 Old Today, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
yes, the triangle formed by the dots should enclose the triangle formed by the squares before the LUT is applied. Probably off is what you want
I'll try the different color spaces tonight to see which one gives the best starting position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I meant when creating the 3dLUT on it's set-up page
understood. What is the difference between the absolute and relative option you can choose there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
You should turn both of these off, black level drift is for unstable meter readings of black, the i1d3 is stable. White level drift is for unstable displays and improves profile fits for some CRTs and plasmas
understood

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
There is a good description of the differences on the dispcalGUI documentation page. Profile just means measure the display characteristics. Calibrate means measure and adjust the video card gamma ramps. 3. is obvious
understood

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Use the one you have been using to get a workable flow and then for final run(s) you might use a larger one depending on the performance of the default
I ll use the small test for testing runs. When doing the final 'Profile' run, which testchart do you recommend then to get the most accurate and best results? (I don t mind if the final run takes more than 5 hours or so). Do you recommend 'Massive testchart for LUT profiles, optimized for Gamma 2.2 with Rec. 709 primaries (D65)'? Or the custom one described in the openingpost of this thread? Or another one?

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yes, see above.
understood.

Really appriciate your help zoyd!!
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
didn't you say you now have a red problem at 20IRE instead? (I can't see the graphs from this connection, blocked by filter at work)

also are you creating the 3D LUT without the ccmx but measuring in chromapure with it (the equivalent of the ccmx in chromapure) on or did you turn that off before measuring in chromapure?
You should check the graphs when you can and will see that 20IRE now has a (little) issue. I ll do more testing tonight and this weekend and report back here.
In Chrompure i HAVE to select correction file (it are simply just settings which can be chosen; the setting (correction) I use is 'FRONT PROJECTION SCREEN'. So all in all I think it is best to also use the .ccmx correction you made for me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
There is a good description of the differences on the dispcalGUI documentation page. Profile just means measure and fit the display characteristics. Calibrate means measure and adjust the video card gamma ramps. 3. is obvious.
I'm confused by this. The 1st post says use Calibrate & Profile but recent posts talk in terms of profile only. I think what the 2 things are but I don't understand why you'd use one or the other or both. Can't the 3D LUT perform the same job as the video card gamma ramp? IIRC madvr has an option to disable that anyway (not sure what I have that set to).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Did anything else change between those 2 runs or was it just the ccmx?
The images I posted in post #2348 are both without using the correction file. The difference is that one is with using the created 3Dlut file (which seems to be working) and the other one is without. In both cases the projector is not calibrated. I now understand that I need a good starting position so 3Dlut can achieve better results. I m going to try this by getting 100% RGB at 100IRE, don t touch the low end RGB, use a gamma preset that gives an ok gamma and adjust brightness and contrast so there is no clipping. Also important to aim for a wide color gamut so 3Dlut can get better results.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
You should check the graphs when you can and will see that 20IRE now has a (little) issue. I ll do more testing tonight and this weekend and report back here.
In Chrompure i HAVE to select correction file (it are simply just settings which can be chosen; the setting (correction) I use is 'FRONT PROJECTION SCREEN'. So all in all I think it is best to also use the .ccmx correction you made for me.
yes it seems to make sense to use it. I created it according to the instructions given by @gwgill , would be nice if someone can positively assert the calculations are correct though.

To give an example... for white I have;

Rec709
X 95.0458
Y 100
Z 108.906

which becomes
Y 100
x 0.312700237 (= X / (X+Y+Z)
y 0.328999532 (= Y / (X+Y+Z)

My supplied correction is

x -0.003
y -0.001

These need to be subtracted from the Rec709 value to give me

Y 100
x 0.315700237 (= reference x - offset x)
y 0.329999532 (= reference y - offset y)

i.e. the values are added in my case

and converting back to XYZ gives me

X 95.66687421 = (x * (Y/y)
Y 100
Z 107.3638584 = (1-x-y)*(Y/y)
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post #2369 of 2384 Old Today, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post
I ll use the small test for testing runs. When doing the final 'Profile' run, which testchart do you recommend then to get the most accurate and best results? (I don t mind if the final run takes more than 5 hours or so). Do you recommend 'Massive testchart for LUT profiles, optimized for Gamma 2.2 with Rec. 709 primaries (D65)'? Or the custom one described in the openingpost of this thread? Or another one?
I was recommending that you evaluate the results of the small test chart first before deciding on how big to go. But if you want a robust solution then the massive test chart will do it. You can use the default one (optimized to Rec.709 etc.) or better yet make your own from that preset and choose the profile you created using the small test chart to optimize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I'm confused by this. The 1st post says use Calibrate & Profile but recent posts talk in terms of profile only. I think what the 2 things are but I don't understand why you'd use one or the other or both. Can't the 3D LUT perform the same job as the video card gamma ramp? IIRC madvr has an option to disable that anyway (not sure what I have that set to).
I've never seen any particular improvement by combining the gamma ramp calibration with the 3dLUT procedure so I like to keep them separate. You need the gamma ramp cal for color managed applications outside of madVR, the 3dLUT takes care of everything within madVR.
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post #2370 of 2384 Old Today, 07:03 AM
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After just reading you guys go back and forth.

Am i reading this right? It's better to not calibrate your projector before running dispcal?

I mean a full calibration not just 100% rgb

Also I see a setting inside madvr to adjust power gamma and you can choose a preset. 2.2 -2.4. Does this do the same thing AS DOING it manually?
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